Naoya Ogawa

[Grimmas]

Discuss here.

[El-P]

Killed Hashimoto's career in NJ. Thank you very much for nothing. Now I hear people talk about how great he was. I dunno. I remember a shitty worker myself, but I haven't followed his career past the Hash debacles, so who knows.

[Tim Cooke]

He had the good 12/14/03 Kawada match and the weird 1/4/04 Goldberg match but he doesn't belong anywhere near this list.

[Timbo Slice]

People saying he's better than Brock in the Brock thread makes me laugh. He was a surprising wrestler because he he sucked for so long that when he did have a good performance, it was literally jaw-dropping because of it, but yeah...none chance.

[GOTNW]

The Hashimoto matches are amazing and better than anything Brock has even done. Also has great matches vs. Kawada, Fujiwara and Ohtani and good tag work alongside Hash and that's just off the top of my head. The idea that he "sucked" as a worker is a ridiculous myth.

[WingedEagle]

Different strokes for different folks, Inonki-san.

[Timbo Slice]

I've never seen a match where Ogawa was clearly the best worker in the match, whereas I've seen a lot of Brock matches where he was the best worker in the match. There's a difference between being in great matches with great workers and being a great worker yourself. He was fine in the matches that were mentioned, but I never thought to myself that Ogawa was some great worker from what I saw. Saying he's better than Brock, who actually has a legitimate case for this list, just doesn't sit well with me.

[Jetlag]

"People saying he's better than Brock in the Brock thread makes me laugh."

 

"Saying he's better than Brock, who actually has a legitimate case for this list, just doesn't sit well with me."

 

So... why is Brock's case more legitimate than Ogawa's then? You can go on about how ridiculous x is, but with nothing to back it up you are just dropping assertions which makes a GWE discussion pointless.

 

As I said in the Brock thread, Ogawa a) has good matches with lousy workers doesn't look carried or out ofplace when matching up with guys like Hash, Kawada, Fujiwara c) thus is in a bunch of high end matches for such a "lousy" worker d) is otherwise comparable to Brock and e) while having some stinkers in his career, he doesn't sink to the same lows as Brock (something which people have yet to comment on in the Brock thread).

 

So again, why is Ogawa > Brock ridiculous? Why is Brock more impressive when he's having great matches with super talented dudes like Cena and Reigns and shit matches with Angle and Triple H, when Ogawa has great matches with super talented dudes and decent matches with guys like Yasuda and Coleman? (by the way, wouldn't mind reading a Triple H/Yasuda comparison, Dylan) What does Brock DO that makes him better than Ogawa. Unpredictable offense? Ogawa kind of matches him. Selling? Again something Ogawa is really good at. Bumping? Ogawa's a bump machine. Charisma/aura? Again Ogawa is up there with the most impressive in all of japanese wrestling.

 

Again Ogawa's chances of my list are reeeally low. Large chunk of his career in HUSTLE and stopped giving a crap in the last couple of years, altough I'll take him and Kaz dicking around for 7 minutes before an amusing Inoki fuckfinish over Brock and Angle going 60 or the dicking around Brock was doing in japan. But he is being way undersold. It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison between something him and Brocks best matches.

[Timbo Slice]

Brock's best matches (Eddy, Reigns, the last few Cena matches, with Extreme Rules a GOAT contender for WWE) are better than Ogawa's best (Kawada, Fujiwara) and Ogawa doesn't get a sliding scale just because he had decent matches with guys that weren't good at all. I totally respect that he got watchable matches out of them, but they weren't better than say, Brock vs. Rock at SummerSlam. Hell, the Hogan SmackDown! match is as entertaining an extended squash as Brock had. The penalties for guys like Angle and Triple H that Brock gets aren't squarely on Brock, especially considering he wasn't "in control" of those matches because he was expected to follow those guys, and on the other hand, Ogawa's not going to get penalized for the Inoki bullshit booking he had for basically his entire peak. So that's a wash to me.

 

The WM XIX match with Angle was a good match, just a dicked up finish. I hate the ironman match, too. The Taker Hell in a Cell match is a better spectacle than a lot of people give it credit for. I know you're saying I'm underselling Ogawa, but you're underselling Brock and harping on the stuff he's done bad just like I've done with Ogawa. The Japan stuff was shit because New Japan was booked like shit and Brock didn't give two shits. That's being thrown into the equation here with Brock for me, but the stuff that I've enjoyed of his outweighs a lot of that. For Ogawa, the best I can say is that I was pleasantly surprised when he was in a good match for me.

 

As far as what Brock does better than Ogawa, I'd objectively say that he's better at move execution, better at making other guys look good, he's a better bumper/seller than Ogawa (the way he bumps and sells for Big Show's offense in his matches is some of the best bumping I've ever seen from a guy his size, so as far as making shitty guys look good, that's two things in one), and most importantly, he's the only guy wrestling today that regardless of who he's facing, I have to watch him wrestle. That aura totally adds to his presence in the ring and makes his matches seem huge. It's something that's totally innate and happens with very few wrestlers that are even a part of this. Ogawa's not going to make me do that, even when people were talking up his big singles matches in HUSTLE, and I enjoy Ogawa matches when he's matched up with someone I enjoy. If the subjectivity is too much, then this is an apples and oranges discussion more than anything else.

[Tim Cooke]

Brock won't make my list (neither will Ogawa) but it's still a stretch praising Ogawa for the Hashimoto matches.

 

Those matches generally had good heat but they were complete messes in the ring. It's not even fair to call them poor UWF matches because the worst UWF style matches I've seen at least seemed to have an end goal in mind. I'm not sure what the end goal of any of the Ogawa/Hashimoto matches were. From the actual execution to the booking, they were a mess. Murakami, who certainly isn't a world beater, had the match Ogawa/Hashimoto were looking for in November 2000 against Ishikawa. Granted, Ishikawa is good but it wasn't a carry job and I'm not about to nominate Murakami for this list (even though he has a handful of matches that I would classify as good+. Ogawa wanted to be a top flight UWF style worker but he just wasn't any good at it.

 

The Kawada match is good but two months later, Kawada rolls out of bed to have a TC match with Hashimoto that is much better than the Ogawa match. And that's with Hashimoto and Kawada both physically broken down.

 

Ogawa wishes he could have had the Cena/Brock match at Backlash 2012. Hell, he probably wishes he could have had the Brock/Punk SS 2013 match (and Punk isn't a UWF worker by any means, but he incorporated one or two elements into that better than Ogawa was able to do 95% of the time).

[Parties]

Ogawa won't make my list and I'm perhaps the biggest Inoki/shoot style apologist here. But because it came up, I'd add that Ogawa-Coleman was much better than it should have been. Way better than Ogawa-Frye. He was almost 40 at that point and looks 10 years younger than that.

 

I do wonder what Ogawa's status would be if he could have worked in recent NJ against Shibata, Sakuraba, Styles, etc. Age-wise he's within a year of Sakuraba, Masa Funaki, Minoru Suzuki.

[GOTNW]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKeZa1Ok30M&feature=youtu.be

Ogawa vs Daichi Hashimoto. I wrote WAAAAAY too much about this, more than anyone should about a three minute match. Ogawa ended up being a tough cut for me but this is making me regret leaving him off. It really is my favourite match of 2015.

[Jingus]

Were we watching a different match? That was terrible. Ogawa's performance was godawful, sloppy and dangerous, to the point where I felt professionally offended by it. He literally looked incompetent in that match, like a guy who'd never been trained or had zero experience in the ring. Didn't know how to take bumps (the German suplex was pathetic), didn't sell a single damn thing, and couldn't even feed. That thing he keeps doing where he's trying to block or dodge EVERY single bit of offense that Daichi throws? That's a no-no. You don't do that in professional wrestling. And don't even get me started on those legitimately threatening kicks, it's a wonder he didn't shoot K.O. his opponent with a couple of those. He was soccer-kicking poor Daichi right on the fucking CHIN; and you don't do that in a worked match, period, you can easily break the guy's fucking jaw by doing that horseshit. If that's all Ogawa has to offer these days, then motherfuck him and everything he stands for. "Selfish", "amateurish", and "unsafe" is pretty much the worst combination in the world.

[GOTNW]

I don't see how any of your criticisms are relevant to the match. The Backdrop Suplex was pretty much picture perfect for Daichi's comeback spot. Daichi is shorter and weighs less than Ogawa, he shouldn't (and didn't) throw him around with ease. Ogawa sold for Daichi plenty, especially considering the difference in their pecking order. Daichi is a post-rookie, not someone on Ogawa's level. Ogawa sold the threat of his strikes early on and let him have a couple of comeback spots, I have no idea what more you could be asking for. I expected it to be a total squash for Daichi to get zero offence in. If you're bothered by unsafe kicks in japanese wrestling well-especially in fucking IGF of all places-I don't really care. It's like criticizing Cena for terrible punches or a WWE heel for locking in a chinlock for too long or or or. I can understand someone disliking the style, but for those that do enjoy it (like me) you're just wasting your time typing stuff like that.

[Jingus]

"lol japenese rassling is STIFF" is your hand-wave to explain Ogawa's unprofessional horseshit? Okay, now I can tell that 1.you've never been in the ring, 2.you've never done much in the way of training or sparring for MMA, and 3.that you don't even pay much attention to the physics and biology of what you're watching. There are DEGREES of stiffness, and what Ogawa was doing here is akin to Maeda's infamous kick to Choshu's face. I'd rather let Kawada kick me in the head for twenty minutes straight than take even one kick in the style Ogawa was doing here.

 

He was kicking in the wrong place, period. There's NO excuse for that. No amount of "it's his gimmick" or "well, they're Japanese, of course they're gonna kick ya" can explain away the legitimate physical danger in what he was doing. YOU NEVER EVER KICK A GUY RIGHT IN THE POINT OF THE CHIN. There's no "safe" way to do that. Notice how Kawada, for all his infamous stiffness, never actually kicks a guy in the chin? He always puts his boot across the guy's forehead, or along the long side of his cheek or jaw. Never in the point of the chin. That's how you win a kickboxing match, but it sure as hell ain't acceptable in a worked match. Hitting the point of the chin is likely to shatter teeth or break the jawbone, and it is the single best spot on the entire face to hit someone for an instant knockout.

 

 

As for the rest: once again, you must have been watching a different match. "Picture perfect" is pretty much the exact opposite of that suplex spot, where Ogawa turned into a sandbagging piece of shit and seemed afraid to even leave his feet. And you must have a different definition of "selling" than I do, considering that Ogawa never once projected the idea that he was in pain from anything Daichi ever did. A couple of brief "oh wow, he actually hit me, I'm momentarily stunned" moments are the best he can do? That's the kind of "selling" Andre would do for a jobber.

 

And talking about "someone on Ogawa's level" is horseshit. Daichi's first matches involved Chono and Mutoh bumping and selling their asses off for him, before finally defeating him; and not in a three-minute squash, but in ten or fifteen minutes. Same thing in Daichi's matches with Choshu, Yuji Nagata, Masato Tanaka, Otani, Shiozaki, Marafuji, Tenzan, and Takayama. What makes Ogawa so special that he doesn't need to bother being as generous as all those guys were?

[GOTNW]

Oh god.

 

lol japenese rassling is STIFF" is your hand-wave to explain Ogawa's unprofessional horseshit?

Yes. You can call Maeda an unprofessional asshole as well. Actually you'd have much more basis for that because he did actually legitimately injure people. Still doesn't stop him from being a wrestling icon. How many times did Ogawa actually injure someone? I can't recall any.

 

Okay, now I can tell that 1.you've never been in the ring

No, I haven't and I don't want to.

 

2.you've never done much in the way of training or sparring for MMA

I haven't done any MMA training because I didn't want to. I've done judo but I don't see how that's relevant here.

 

3.that you don't even pay much attention to the physics and biology of what you're watching

Fuck off.

 

There are DEGREES of stiffness, and what Ogawa was doing here is akin to Maeda's infamous kick to Choshu's face. I'd rather let Kawada kick me in the head for twenty minutes straight than take even one kick in the style Ogawa was doing here.

I'm not even gonna dispute Ogawa's kicks are reckless. There's no point in doing that because obviously they are. For the record, Kawada concussed Foley with his reckless head kicks. When did Ogawa injure anyone?

 

He was kicking in the wrong place, period. There's NO excuse for that. No amount of "it's his gimmick" or "well, they're Japanese, of course they're gonna kick ya" can explain away the legitimate physical danger in what he was doing. YOU NEVER EVER KICK A GUY RIGHT IN THE POINT OF THE CHIN. There's no "safe" way to do that. Notice how Kawada, for all his infamous stiffness, never actually kicks a guy in the chin? He always puts his boot across the guy's forehead, or along the long side of his cheek or jaw. Never in the point of the chin. That's how you win a kickboxing match, but it sure as hell ain't acceptable in a worked match. Hitting the point of the chin is likely to shatter teeth or break the jawbone, and it is the single best spot on the entire face to hit someone for an instant knockout.

And, once again. I don't care. You can trip or land badly and suffer a career ending injury. Pro wrestling is physical (in case you haven't realises by now). If you're bringing ethics into pro-wrestling, well, I'm not sure how to even respond to that.

 

 

As for the rest: once again, you must have been watching a different match. "Picture perfect" is pretty much the exact opposite of that suplex spot, where Ogawa turned into a sandbagging piece of shit and seemed afraid to even leave his feet.

If you knew anything about Ogawa's actualy fighting ability you'd know if he didn't want to take that move he wouldn't have and Daichi couldn't have done anything to change that. Moves that aren't hit super clean are very common in japanese wrestling, and I'll gladly take struggle over hitting a move than a lack of it.

 

And you must have a different definition of "selling" than I do, considering that Ogawa never once projected the idea that he was in pain from anything Daichi ever did. A couple of brief "oh wow, he actually hit me, I'm momentarily stunned" moments are the best he can do? That's the kind of "selling" Andre would do for a jobber.

"Andre vs jobber" is about the same type of match Ogawa-Daichi was.

And talking about "someone on Ogawa's level" is horseshit. Daichi's first matches involved Chono and Mutoh bumping and selling their asses off for him, before finally defeating him; and not in a three-minute squash, but in ten or fifteen minutes. Same thing in Daichi's matches with Choshu, Yuji Nagata, Masato Tanaka, Otani, Shiozaki, Marafuji, Tenzan, and Takayama. What makes Ogawa so special that he doesn't need to bother being as generous as all those guys were?

 

Ogawa is easily above every single one of those guys. He's done what, one job in his career since he dropped the gi? Working even 15 minute showcase matches isn't a real thing that was going to happen in Daichi's matches vs guys like Kazuyuki Fujita and Naoya Ogawa. You can hate on the booking but his presentation has been pretty consistent.

[Jetlag]

Daichi really is shit, so I don't blame Ogawa for threating him accordingly. Blue haired punk needs to get in shape and stop getting on by his name.

 

I find it funny that someone would name Kawada of all people as an example of perfectly ethical stiff work. Dude even broke his own arm from hitting so hard. This whole "I am so OFFENDED by [xy scummyness] in pro wrestling" is so lame. It's like complaining that black metal is full of neonazis or that hip hop is misogynist. "You don't kick someone in the point of the chin, that's how you win a kickboxing match!" I don't think I've ever seen a kickboxing match that was won by a pulled kick.

[Jingus]

When did Ogawa injure anyone?

When do we ever hear much about any Japanese injuries at all? Unless they're bad enough to immediately end the match (or someone's career), it seems like that kind of thing isn't even talked about publicly. They keep it much quieter than Westerners ever do about their vulnerabilities.

 

And, once again. I don't care. You can trip or land badly and suffer a career ending injury. Pro wrestling is physical (in case you haven't realises by now). If you're bringing ethics into pro-wrestling, well, I'm not sure how to even respond to that.

I do care. You don't have any good friends who are broken-down ex-wrestlers, whose bodies have been destroyed by the business? Great! BUT I DO. Quite a few of 'em. You've never driven a badly injured wrestler to the hospital after a match went poorly? Great! But I have. Multiple times. Don't lecture to me about "it ain't ballet, you know". You've never had to deal with the real-world consequences of this shit. And it makes me much less cavalier about people who just say "it's so fucking cool when they endure an unhealthy level of physical damage".

 

If you knew anything about Ogawa's actualy fighting ability you'd know if he didn't want to take that move he wouldn't have and Daichi couldn't have done anything to change that. Moves that aren't hit super clean are very common in japanese wrestling, and I'll gladly take struggle over hitting a move than a lack of it.

You can say the same thing about every shooter ever, and yet most of them didn't consider taking a clean bump to be something which was beneath them.

 

Ogawa is easily above every single one of those guys.

Naoyo Ogawa is "easily above" Keiji freakin' Mutoh? Let alone all the others, but come the fuck on, that's simply not a true statement.

 

He's done what, one job in his career since he dropped the gi?

Exactly when was that? Because just looking at his match profile, I see him doing at least eleven different jobs in singles matches alone. And the booking isn't even what I'm complaining about.

 

Blue haired punk needs to get in shape and stop getting on by his name.

What a terribly odd thing to say about someone who 1.is in better shape than his dad was, and 2.loses most of his matches.

 

I find it funny that someone would name Kawada of all people as an example of perfectly ethical stiff work.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, "even fucking Kawada worked his kicks more safely than Naoyo Ogawa does".

 

This whole "I am so OFFENDED by [xy scummyness] in pro wrestling" is so lame.

Once again: having been there and done that, I've earned the right to be offended by whatever I want. And why are you getting offended at other people taking offense?

[Microstatistics]

Interesting that Daichi match was discussed here because, after watching it recently, I think it sums up my thoughts on Naoya Ogawa perfectly. Great on offense, great charisma and character work but mediocre with everything else.

 

He is as polarizing as Shawn Michaels or Kurt Angle are. I am in the middle with him. Decent-good, no way terrible but definitely not great. Shinya Hashimoto made him look way better than he actually ever was which should a positive for Hashimoto rather than Ogawa.

[elliott]

I love the matches with Hashimoto. Just crazy spectacles. He's a fun Don Frye opponent too. Ultimately he's a no, but he's a fun & compelling performer. 

[EnviousStupid]

I'm now of the opinion that Ogawa was Hashimoto's best opponent, and that their rivalry across the late 90s-2000 is an all-timer.