Bierschwale Posted July 16, 2015 Report Share Posted July 16, 2015 With all of these names, there's a lot that you can do with this card, and almost all of it is a "fuck you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffey Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Reigns is one of the top 3 in-ring babyfaces that have right now so I'd really rather him not turn heel. Then you would do Face Vs. Face? Because there's no way the crowd is going to boo Lesnar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Reigns is one of the top 3 in-ring babyfaces that have right now so I'd really rather him not turn heel. Then you would do Face Vs. Face? Because there's no way the crowd is going to boo Lesnar. Yes. It didn't hurt the quality of the Mania match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bierschwale Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Sidebar on Lesnar matches; does anyone else see Cesaro-Lesnar get thrown around as a dream match and not understand how it'd work in practice at all? People love Cesaro because he's a tremendous offensive wrestler, but nobody gives a damn about him selling. I'm not sure that there's anyone on the roster who people actually want to see sell less than Cesaro. What kind of amazing offense is he going to pull out when Brock will get 85% of the match and won't take significant bumps anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Sorrow Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 If the reports from a few weeks ago are still to be believed where Triple H insists on shoehorning himself onto the show,What reports? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donsem43 Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 People love Cesaro because he's a tremendous offensive wrestler, but nobody gives a damn about him selling. I'm not sure that there's anyone on the roster who people actually want to see sell less than Cesaro. What kind of amazing offense is he going to pull out when Brock will get 85% of the match and won't take significant bumps anymore? Just have them pound the crap out of each other and have Cesaro take Suplex City. It worked at Wrestlemania. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCrypt Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 If the reports from a few weeks ago are still to be believed where Triple H insists on shoehorning himself onto the show,What reports? There was talk that he wanted to get himself into the main event by facing Rollins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 If the reports from a few weeks ago are still to be believed where Triple H insists on shoehorning himself onto the show,What reports?There was talk that he wanted to get himself into the main event by facing Rollins. Assuming the main event is the title match, I doubt that is where Triple H would face Rollins. If it happened, it would be a non title match just underneath the main event which would then feature Lesnar as the champ defending. Triple H is self centered but he's not an idiot. Come on now. After what he's done as an in-ring competitor starting from Mania 30 onward, he deserves little bit of a benefit of the doubt here. This is all assuming it is even true that the match would happen which I don't buy either. Whatever his issue with Rollins would be hasn't been revealed yet and they shouldn't bother heating that match up with 5 week build. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RocketCrypt Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 If the reports from a few weeks ago are still to be believed where Triple H insists on shoehorning himself onto the show,What reports?There was talk that he wanted to get himself into the main event by facing Rollins. Assuming the main event is the title match, I doubt that is where Triple H would face Rollins. If it happened, it would be a non title match just underneath the main event which would then feature Lesnar as the champ defending. Triple H is self centered but he's not an idiot. Come on now. After what he's done as an in-ring competitor starting from Mania 30 onward, he deserves little bit of a benefit of the doubt here. This is all assuming it is even true that the match would happen which I don't buy either. Whatever his issue with Rollins would be hasn't been revealed yet and they shouldn't bother heating that match up with 5 week build. Whether it would be the main event or not is completely irrelevant. All I said was that if they insist on having Taker, Sting AND Triple H on the same card then I'd rather get them all out of the way in a tag match. I have no desire to see any of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Obviously. I am just disputing the "reports", if they are really claiming it being the Summerslam main event. Ever since Rollins walked out of Mania with the belt he was pencilled in Summerslam to be part of the title match in some form (first as a triple threat with Reigns in the mix and then more recently vs Lesnar straight up). Like I said, it is too late to try to heat up a HHH vs Rollins match with the show only a month away. Triple H has too much ego to just throw himself in a scenario like that. If the match was going to happen this year, Summerslam is probably where it is born in an angle of some kind to be played out at Survivor Series or Royal Rumble. But I do get your sentiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(BP) Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I'm perfectly fine with one old timers match on every Summerslam/Mania as long as they are as batshit crazy as Sting/HHH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Self-contained and in a strong midcard position is perfectly fine for nostalgia stuff. The problem is that most of the vets are so much better than the current crop at working a crowd, so even if that's the intent, they are usually going to get the biggest reaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 One of my favorite things all year was Austin on his podcast marking over for how Sting still had it and his back hand chops in the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 The dumbest thing ever was to retire a perfectly healthy Michaels to build up the streak. If that wasn't dumb enough, they killed the streak and jobbed Taker to Lesnar. Now they expect people to care about a guy who has looked like ass for years? What? Shawn Michaels WANTED to retire. That was his idea. He was going to be finished wrestling either way. Not only did he want to retire, he wanted to go out losing to Taker at WM AND is one of the very few guys who's actually honored his retirement stipulation peachchaos is probably one of those people who bitched about HBK 'retiring' Ric Flair I posit to you peachchaos.....who should HBK have 'put over' in his retirement match? Who should have beat Flair in his last WWE match? Carlito? Chris Masters? Gotta give those young guys the rub, right? I can't think of a single opponent to retire Michaels that would have had the gravitas and indelible all-time "WM moment" feel to it other than Taker. Would you rather it was Hunter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 It honestly should have been someone on the verge of breaking out who just needed a big win to get over the top in both cases, WM moment or not. They could have made a big star in one night in each case. There's nothing really that wrong with how they retired Flair or Michaels, especially Flair since he didn't have much rub to give at that point and they got almost a year of storyline out of it between Batista and Jericho. But someone at the CM Punk level or so should have been the one to retire Shawn. It wouldn't necessarily have to be Punk (although imagine the mileage he could get out of that one on promos), but someone in the upper midcard who needed a big win would have been made right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think people discount the idea of a fan backlash in that situation. Everyone idealizes the young guy retiring the old star but how many times has it actually happened? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Not too many, which is one of many reasons wrestling has such a tough time creating new superstars now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I think the "not too many" part isn't the reason that wrestling has a tough time creating new stars. When I asked how many times has it actually happened, I didn't just mean WWE. Even in the territory days top stars usually just wrestled until they didn't have gas left in the tank, there really aren't any "young gun retires an old star" scenarios that I can think of off the top of my head. It feels like an idea that's gotten idealized in people's heads as the way everyone should retire but it's not like there's really much of a precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I agree there's not much of a precedent, but I still think it should be the standard way to go out. It is usually how people leave the territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I agree with you that it would be nice to see that but it really requires special circumstances and I'd rather see Shawn Michaels retired by The Undertaker than have them rush someone into that spot who wasn't ready and have it negatively impact their career because they have to face a crowd backlash. I mean look at how many problems Roman Reigns has had just from winning a Royal Rumble that people wanted Daniel Bryan to win. That's not even close to the scale of the backlash that I think would have happened to a young guy who had retired HBK or ended Undertaker's streak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Well, yeah, it's important to pick the right guy. But let's say CM Punk is the guy -- someone with a decent amount of fan support who was just beneath the top level. Does he become an overnight superstar by beating Shawn? Does it catapult him to the top immediately and put him on the level of Cena-Orton types? Or does his heat go to the company? I don't know. I agree that a lot of the things that used to work don't work anymore, so it's possibly I'm looking at this through an outdated lens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cm funk Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 Punk is the only "up and coming" guy who might have worked. The Straight Edge Society gimmick was hot and a big ratings mover on SD (this is when the brand split was still going). He had the blowoff with Rey at WM26 after a long running feud. You'd really have to re-write a lot of history to put Punk in that spot, and I'm not sure that's something the fans wanted to see. Punk was not at the level of a guy who retires an icon like HBK at that point, and it's almost always a mistake to try and hot shot "one match and this guy is made" book. Sometimes it works, under the right circumstances and right guys, most of the time it doesn't Also, look at the WWE roster circa WM26. Look at the card. There's literally nobody who wasn't already established who would have worked in that spot, and HHH, Edge, Jericho, Orton, Cena, Batista didn't need it and it wouldn't have been the draw that the HBK-Taker rematch was Look at the ladder match lineup, the match for at the time upper midcarders and "on the verge" guys. Matt Hardy, Christian, Shelton Benjamin, Kofi Kingston, Dolph Ziggler, Evan Bourne, Kane, Drew McIntyre and Jack Swagger. Good talent.....but anyone on that list you can picture retiring Shawn Michaels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 If they had not stop-started with Drew McIntyre and continued him along his "Chosen One" path then he's a guy I think could have benefited from retiring Shawn Michaels but the timing was off because he hadn't been around long enough by WM26. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slasher Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I no longer think the idea of retiring someone to get someone over works anymore. I mean, the fans nowadays are just into the shows. They have their favorites and all but there isn't that connection that used to exist between a worker and the crowd in the totality of their careers. Yeah we follow guys from the indies and we get excited when the WWE signs them up and puts them on television but it's no longer a situation where we follow them emotionally like people do sports stars of their local teams. Now it is just about going to the shows and being taken in by the in ring action and the talents of the wrestlers. Look at the Brock/Streak thing. He is a babyface because he is a killer talent even though he had Heyman tout the accomplishment in every single promo from that night on to just as recently as last Monday. Obviously Brock is a talent that didn't need a rub from ending the streak but the fans weren't upset because he ended it. They were upset because it was ended, period. Almost none of it transferred to Brock really outside annoyance of being constantly reminded of it. I think the same thing would happen to a retirement match. People would just go in to have fun and enjoy the last match of the guy's career which would obviously in theory provide the best output by both wrestlers to honor the retiring guy in a better than average (for the retiring guy at least) match. They might get upset they won't see the guy anymore but they know its all fake. The guy told the company he's done and probably got to pick his last opponent...and they play along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goc Posted July 17, 2015 Report Share Posted July 17, 2015 I would argue that Brock DID need that rub because he didn't have the same aura he has now before he beat Undertaker. He kind of did when he first came back but he got watered down with the loss to Cena and the shitty HHH feud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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