Observer HOF prediction/ballot question thread

[Loss]

Orton's privileged status works strongly against him, I think, and I hope that's a point that is made again and again. He's been pushed hard and carefully protected for 12 years. Cena is more of a special talent so I don't expect Orton to be on his level in terms of being meaningful to the company, but he should be a strong draw if nothing else because of how he has consistently been presented. And he's not, really.

[Robert S]

I wish we had ROH DVD sales figures. So many of those were sold on the quality of a Danielson match that I suspect it would reflect well on him. Winged Eagle mentioned no one getting in as an indy draw before, and I get that, but the only source of indy revenue for candidates before the time period we are starting to consider was the live gate.

(...)

Agreed, the numbers would be really interesting. Though I would assume that the biggest spikes in sales could be seen on events with big Samoa Joe matches (Punk vs. Joe II, Punk vs. Joe III, Joe vs. Kobashi).

[Bix]

 

I wish we had ROH DVD sales figures. So many of those were sold on the quality of a Danielson match that I suspect it would reflect well on him. Winged Eagle mentioned no one getting in as an indy draw before, and I get that, but the only source of indy revenue for candidates before the time period we are starting to consider was the live gate.

(...)

Agreed, the numbers would be really interesting. Though I would assume that the biggest spikes in sales could be seen on events with big Samoa Joe matches (Punk vs. Joe II, Punk vs. Joe III, Joe vs. Kobashi).

 

 

Gabe did an interview when he was still in ROH and at some pint post-Joe Kobashi where he said no ROH DVD had ever sold 10,000 units.

[Loss]

How much were tickets to ROH shows and what did they average for attendance most of the time? Is 1500 paid too high an average or about right? Add that to even 5000 DVDs sold and you have somewhere around a six-figure gate with no television to promote it, assuming tickets were $20.

[Bix]

How much were tickets to ROH shows and what did they average for attendance most of the time? Is 1500 paid too high an average or about right? Add that to even 5000 DVDs sold and you have somewhere around a six-figure gate with no television to promote it, assuming tickets were $20.

 

Depends on when.

 

Looking at old order confirmation emails for tickets:

 

$35.00 - Ring of Honor Club Seating 3rd Row Reserved- 10/1/05 (New York - New Yorker Hotel ballroom - Joe vs. Kobashi)

$25.00 - Ring of Honor Club Seating 3rd Row Reserved- 12/3/05 (New York - Basketball City - 1st Steel Cage Warfare)

$25.00 - Ring of Honor Club Seating 5th Row Reserved- 6/17/06 (New York - New Yorker Hotel ballroom - Danielson vs. Joe vs. KENTA)

$20.00 - Ring of Honor Club Seating General Admission Ticket- 9/16/06 (New York - Grand Ballroom at the Manhattan Center - Danielson vs. KENTA/Marufuji vs. McGuiness)

$25.00 - Ring of Honor Club Seating 4th Row Reserved- 12/23/06 (New York - Grand Ballroom at the Manhattan Center - Danielson vs. Homicide)

[Robert S]

How much were tickets to ROH shows and what did they average for attendance most of the time? Is 1500 paid too high an average or about right? Add that to even 5000 DVDs sold and you have somewhere around a six-figure gate with no television to promote it, assuming tickets were $20.

Six-figures sounds a bit high. Even if DVDs were 20 bucks or whatever you have to consider production, shipping etc. so I would add 25k to the gate, not more.

[Loss]

Price per unit without overhead being subtracted is fair, just like building leasing, payoffs, etc. aren't taken out of announced gates for live shows.

[Robert S]

In principle yes, but if you want to add it the the general gate to indicate the profitability no. I mean you don't add net merchandise sales to the gate either.

[InYourCase]

Bryan will get in this year, or next at absolute worst. I won't vote for him, but I have no problem with his inclusion. Nakamura is emerging as an interesting candidate just now - no way he should go in at this point, and it's possible he will never be deserving. CIMA is someone I am happy to see on the ballot, but there is no way he should be in if Hamada isn't. Styles coming back on so early after being rejected is ridiculous. Orton is probably the most interesting one of all of those names, because your position on him is likely a good indicator of how you view the HOF as a whole.

Admittedly I don't know as a lot about Hamada. What makes him standout over CIMA?

 

CIMA, at least as of now, would be a slamdunk vote for me. Checks off boxes for influence, drawing power, and in-ring ability.

[Dylan Waco]

 

Bryan will get in this year, or next at absolute worst. I won't vote for him, but I have no problem with his inclusion. Nakamura is emerging as an interesting candidate just now - no way he should go in at this point, and it's possible he will never be deserving. CIMA is someone I am happy to see on the ballot, but there is no way he should be in if Hamada isn't. Styles coming back on so early after being rejected is ridiculous. Orton is probably the most interesting one of all of those names, because your position on him is likely a good indicator of how you view the HOF as a whole.

Admittedly I don't know as a lot about Hamada. What makes him standout over CIMA?

 

CIMA, at least as of now, would be a slamdunk vote for me. Checks off boxes for influence, drawing power, and in-ring ability.

 

 

Created the style/promotional basis for what CIMA has done, as good or better in the ring for longer, while I don't consider him an HoF Draw (or CIMA either), he was in money drawing feuds/well presented on cards against top stars in Mexico.

[MJH]

CIMA as a "draw" is a weird one... I mean I'm not sold on him at all but, Toryumon/Dragon Gate is the one promotion in Japan post-millennium to not go seriously down at any point and has been running a regular profit and drawing solid houses for a pretty long time now. In terms of figures it's... not terribly impressive in the grand scheme of wrestling history but, relevant to every other company around them, it's an impressive stability.

[W2BTD]

fwiw, in casual conversations with hardcore modern puro fans, many view CIMA as a stronger candidate than Nakamura, and i'm not sure I disagree.

 

Gun to my head today, I vote yes on Daniel Bryan Danielson, no on CIMA, Styles, Nak, & Orton. Orton is the only one where I can't be swayed, and it would take A LOT of swaying on Styles.

 

I was one of the people who asked for CIMA to be put on the ballot, because I believe dave overlooked him when he first became eligible, and even if I don't vote for him, which I probably won't, he has a career worth examining. Dragon Gate will not blow anybody away with 10K gates (in fact, i'm not sure they have any), but it's a promotion that CIMA essentially built from the ground up as both the promoter, booker, and top star that eventually rose to where it sits today as the #2 promotion in Japan (and possibly #1 for a very brief time before the NJPW resurgence), doing steady in the black business. They regularly draw between 6k-9k for the big shows all over Japan, and pack Korakuen to the point that the building has faced safety issues and has asked them to sell less tickets, which is all very impressive in modern context, but may not be enough to impress voters in a historical context.

 

As a worker, CIMA is undoubtedly considered an all time great in his style. Your mileage may vary on what you think of lucharesu, and particularly modern lucharesu, but for me personally I try to eliminate those feelings when I look at the HOF.

 

As far as the influence box, he has continued the lineage of Ultimo Dragon & Hamada, one of whom is in the HOF, the other of which is off the ballot, but hey, go blame somebody else because I was a Hamada voter. Again, style biases aside, you won't find a more impressive roster of clean, impressive workers top to bottom. Wrestlers who spend enough time in the DG system always come out of it as better overall workers, with Matt Sydal, Ricochet, Neville/Pac, Flamita, as some of the top examples. Pac in particular made enormous strides in DG, as did Ricochet, as both were middling indie guys with raw potential who by working in the system and working the hard schedule with the other great workers emerged as elite level talents. The DG style influence can be found in nearly every major promotion in the world these days, and DG just keeps churning out good young wrestlers like Eita, T-Hawk, Kotoka, El Lindaman, Big R Shimizu, etc who will be the top names in DG over the next decade, and who will be the second gen of guys totally taught under CIMA's hand. His influence case is strong now, but will probably be more evident 6-10 years from now.

 

His case will come down to what voters think of Dragon Gate's business, because most probably already have an opinion that isn't changing regarding his in ring. DG's business will probably surprise many who haven't paid attention, but it may not be strong enough to impress people in a historical context.

[Matt Farmer]

I have no problem with Daniel Bryan or Nakamura getting in. I'm not sure if I will vote for either of them yet or not, I always feel it's too early to vote for a guy when they are 35 unless they had an Austin/Rock/Hogan/Londos type run.

 

With AJ doing so well in New Japan I'm really enjoying him now more than ever. I think if he has a few more years like he has had a stronger case could be made for him. But in no way should he even be discussed as going in over Randy Orton.

 

I've seen it mention that Bryan and Punk should be given credit for influencing the WWE and changing the styles. And while I do agree with that I cannot say if it has been a positive change yet. Sure some matches may have gotten better and they seem to be recruiting some strong independent wrestlers but we have not seen any break out to become a star like we did when developmental was in OVW and we got Cena, Brock, Batista, Orton.

 

Cima I'm not sold on and don't see ever voting for him. He's a good hand but nothing more really.

[kjh]

Styles at least is in the argument for being the best worker in the world at one point (this year), which is something Orton can't say.

[Grimmas]

I will say this every year and I am sorry, but this age rule is ridiculous. I don't see how anybody who is in their prime should get in, until we get some distance from that.

[Bix]

Dunno if I should make a new thread, but...

 

*****

 

It's time for the 2015 Hall of Fame elections.

This ballot is being sent out to major wrestling stars, past and present, major management figures in the industry, writers and historians.

If you are getting this, you are being asked your opinion on who should be inducted into this year's Hall of Fame class. The criteria for the Hall of Fame is a combination of drawing power, being a great in-ring performer or excelling in ones field in pro wrestling, as well as having historical significance in a positive manner. A candidate should either have something to offer in all three categories, or be someone so outstanding in one or two of those categories that they deserve inclusion.

The names listed below are those under consideration for this year. To be eligible, a performer must have reached their 35th birthday and completed ten years since their debut as a full-time performer, or be someone who has been a full-time pro wrestler for at least 15 years.

Longevity should be a prime consideration rather than a hot two or three year run, unless someone is so significant as a trend-setter or a historical figure in the business, or valuable to the industry, that they need to be included. However, just longevity without being either a long-term main eventer, a top draw and/or a top caliber in-ring performer should be seen as relatively meaningless.

The election is broken down into a number of categories. You should check each category for wrestlers that you feel you are familiar enough with based on geography that you've either traveled or are familiar with, and based on the time you have followed pro wrestling. You do not have to vote for a wrestler in every category you've checked.

The ballot is also broken down to wrestlers and those who are not pro wrestlers but have been valuable parts of the industry.

The maximum number of wrestlers that you can vote for all the categories is ten. You can pick as few as zero if you don't believe anyone on this list deserves inclusion.

For wrestling executives, managers, announcers and other outside the ring performers, you can vote for them and they are not counted against the ten. You can vote for as many as five of them.

All responses are confidential. There is nothing to worry about politically about any involvement in this process. Your selections will not be revealed unless you choose to do so yourself.

Anyone who receives mention on 60% of the ballots from the geographical region and time frame (broken down as Continental United States & Canada; Mexico; Japan; Europe; and Hawaii/Australia/New Zealand) will be added to the Hall of Fame in the class of 2015.

If you are unfamiliar with any of the candidates due to geography of having never seen them, that is fine. Ballots are sent to many people from all over the world and from different wrestling cultures so that everyone has as fair a shot at possible.

The breakdown for modern and historical performers is 30 years ago, or 1985. So if the last year the person was a headliner, or was a key figure in the industry, was prior to 1985, they would be in the historical class.

All performers who receive mention on 10% to 59.9% of the ballots from their geographical region or era will remain on the ballot for consideration next year. All those who receive less than 10% of the vote will be dropped from next year's ballot. They can return in two years based on if there is significant feedback from voters who say they will vote for them. This is mostly for wrestlers who are still active who may improve their career legacy, but can be for retired wrestlers if voters believe they should be put on or returned to the ballot.

In addition, in following the lead of the baseball Hall of Fame, which is the model here, starting this year we have a 15-year-rule. The following candidates have been on the ballot since 2000. In baseball, this would be their last year of eligibility. Here, if they don't get at least 50% of the votes in this year's election they will be removed from the ballot. If they are modern candidates, they can be brought back in the historical performers era in two years if it is more than 30 years since their career as a Hall Fame level performer is up:

The following candidates will be dropped from next year's ballot unless they are elected in or garner 50% of the vote:

Gene & Ole Anderson

Cien Caras

Carlos Colon

Villano III

Volk Han

Please return this ballot by October 5th. You can e-mail the ballot back to [email protected] or fax it to 408-244-3402 or mail (please do so by September 28th) to Wrestling Observer, P.O. Box 1228, Campbell, CA 95009-1228.

Please check by every category you are familiar with

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES

The Assassins (Joe Hamilton & Tom Renesto)

Red Bastien

June Byers

Cowboy Bob Ellis

Bob Geigel

Pepper Gomez

Dick Hutton

Rocky Johnson

Kinji Shibuya

John Tolos

Enrique Torres

Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

Ron Wright

I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES

Bryan Danielson/Daniel Bryan

Junkyard Dog

Edge

Curt Hennig

Ivan Koloff

Brock Lesnar

Randy Orton

C.M. Punk

Big Show

Sgt. Slaughter

Sting

A.J. Styles

Ultimate Warrior

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN JAPAN CANDIDATES

Jun Akiyama

Cima

George Gordienko

Volk Han

Masahiko Kimura

Satoshi Kojima & Hiroyoshi Tenzan

Yuji Nagata

Shinsuke Nakamura

Mike & Ben Sharpe

Minoru Suzuki

Kiyoshi Tamura

Akira Taue

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN MEXICO CANDIDATES

Perro Aguayo Jr.

Brazo de Oro & Brazo de Plata & El Brazo

Cien Caras

Hector Garza

Ultimo Guerrero

Karloff Lagarde

Blue Panther

L.A. Park

Huracan Ramirez

El Signo & El Texano & Negro Navarro

Vampiro

Villano III

Dr. Wagner Jr.

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE CANDIDATES

Jim Breaks

Big Daddy

Horst Hoffman

Billy Joyce

Kendo Nagasaki

Jackie Pallo

Rollerball Mark Rocco

Johnny Saint

Ricki Starr

Otto Wanz

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN AUSTRALIA/PACIFIC ISLANDS/CARIBBEAN/AFRICA CANDIDATES

Spyros Arion

Johnny Barend

Brute Bernard & Skull Murphy

Carlos Colon

Domenic DeNucci

Killer Karl Kox

Mark Lewin

Mario Milano

NON-WRESTLERS

Bill Apter

Dave Brown

Jim Crockett Jr.

Jim Crockett Sr.

Gary Hart

Jimmy Hart

Howard Finkel

Jerry Jarrett

Larry Matysik

Gorilla Monsoon

Gene Okerluind

Don Owen

George Scott

Stanley Weston

[shakla]

Glad the ballot got posted. Hoping it would surface after Dave on WO Radio saying he already had a bunch of ballots in.

 

On a HoF mailbag show last year, I asked why Big Show had never been on the ballot. And there he is. He deserves a look after 20 years in the big leagues, not sure he'll stay on tho.

 

Glad Ricki Starr is on, wasn't sure he'd be on the Europe or Historical ballot.

 

I'll assume this is cut-and-paste, but it looks like the Andersons are only listed in the "15 year category" but not in a regular category like the others. Someone may want to bring that to Dave's attention if so. (Update: forgot they just dropped off last year)

 

ADD: Both Samoa Joe and Eddie Quinn are not on the ballot, despite being included in "Added to the ballot next year" listing in last year's results.

[Grimmas]

Why are people handling in ballots after one day?

[shoe]

Why are people handling in ballots after one day?

Why should this be shocking at this point. Their are voters who aren't qualified, their are voters who will give their due diligence. Their are voters who are so excited to have one they whip one out immediately .

[W2BTD]

Why are people handling in ballots after one day?

 

I have no doubt that there are some people who take a glance at the ballot, mark a few names, send it back with very little thought, and don't think about it again until the next year. A lot of people probably don't even bother reading the rules or guidelines. I recall a brief conversation I had with Missy Hyatt on twitter where she was totally clueless on the procedure. Most wrestlers & former wrestlers probably fit into this category.

 

There are probably voters who are relatively well informed who simply know exactly who they are voting for because they vote for the same people every year. So for them, they just need to decide on the new candidates, and if they see all of them as no brainers in either direction, I can see returning the ballot quickly.

 

I'd guess that a pretty small percentage of people go through hardcore research/debate, and most of those people are likely the ones posting in places like this.

[Sean Liska]

It seems odd to me that Orton, Batista, and Edge won't get in when WWE has made hundreds of millions in profits over the past decade. Jericho is the only modern WWE guy to get in besides Cena?

[Quentin Skinner]

Bryan would be a slam dunk for me. Styles and CIMA have the next best cases for getting in out of the new people on the ballot.

 

 

It seems odd to me that Orton, Batista, and Edge won't get in when WWE has made hundreds of millions in profits over the past decade. Jericho is the only modern WWE guy to get in besides Cena?

 

I think Edge is vastly underrated and out of the three names you gave, the most deserving one to go in to the HOF.

[Grimmas]

 

Why are people handling in ballots after one day?

 

I have no doubt that there are some people who take a glance at the ballot, mark a few names, send it back with very little thought, and don't think about it again until the next year. A lot of people probably don't even bother reading the rules or guidelines. I recall a brief conversation I had with Missy Hyatt on twitter where she was totally clueless on the procedure. Most wrestlers & former wrestlers probably fit into this category.

 

There are probably voters who are relatively well informed who simply know exactly who they are voting for because they vote for the same people every year. So for them, they just need to decide on the new candidates, and if they see all of them as no brainers in either direction, I can see returning the ballot quickly.

 

I'd guess that a pretty small percentage of people go through hardcore research/debate, and most of those people are likely the ones posting in places like this.

 

There are major issues with the HOF then.

[SteveJRogers]

 

 

 

 

Why are people handling in ballots after one day?

I have no doubt that there are some people who take a glance at the ballot, mark a few names, send it back with very little thought, and don't think about it again until the next year. A lot of people probably don't even bother reading the rules or guidelines. I recall a brief conversation I had with Missy Hyatt on twitter where she was totally clueless on the procedure. Most wrestlers & former wrestlers probably fit into this category.

 

There are probably voters who are relatively well informed who simply know exactly who they are voting for because they vote for the same people every year. So for them, they just need to decide on the new candidates, and if they see all of them as no brainers in either direction, I can see returning the ballot quickly.

 

I'd guess that a pretty small percentage of people go through hardcore research/debate, and most of those people are likely the ones posting in places like this.

There are major issues with the HOF then.

WON or the Baseball Hall of Fame?

[KrisZ]

Every hall of fame has this issue