JvK reviews pimped matches from late 90s-10s

[GOTNW]

GOTNW, i think JvK is referring more to the general presentation than the wrestling style

The last time something in New Japan's presentation changed was when fans stopped throwing streamers in the ring.

[pol]

Agree on the sterile environment of modern NJPW (both in terms of house style and presentation), though I suspect I still dig much more of it Parv would.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Yeah, "video game" isn't meant to literally mean what could actually exist in a video game. 😄

 

"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse."

"Ummm..There's no actual way you could eat an entire horse, "

[concrete1992]

Yeah, "video game" isn't meant to literally mean what could actually exist in a video game.

 

"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse."

"Ummm..There's no actual way you could eat an entire horse, "

When I say I can eat a horse you better darn believe I'd a whole horse!

 

It was the "inauthentic age" bit which is where the real humor lies.

[GOTNW]

My favourite bit is how supposedly taping TV in a literal studio is supposed to be the peak of wrestling's authenticity.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't think it's any great revelation that I'm primarily an old-school fan. But if the suggestion is that I think wrestling was "more authentic" then than it is now, then absolutely it is and absolutely I do. Wrestling has been in a post-modern phase for some time now, at least a decade. I keep hoping it will come out of it. From what I've seen of NXT, there are glimmers of it. Although aspects of that show still seems like "wrestling for hipsters" to me.

 

Current New Japan at times reminds me of visiting a place like Dubai. They might have all the shops you'd expect to see. They might even have a Shake Shack! But it doesn't feel like a living breathing city. There's something missing. My charge is that it has no soul. And that all these matches that get talked up are basically emphemeral., that today's five star match will be forgotten in 10 years.

 

It's cool that you like it. Like I said I'm really happy for it to be someone else's thing. I need to prioritise what I watch in the next couple of months, and when I have stacks of dics to get through, I've decided that watching AJ Styles pretend to be his favourite wrestlers is basically a waste of that time.

[Grimmas]

Parv you have to watch the AJ-Jimmy Rave match from 2015.

[benjaminkicks]

The "it's cool if you like it" shtick is pretty inauthentic when you follow it up with derogatory comments like "Video game wrestling for an inauthentic age" and "watching AJ Styles pretend to be his favourite wrestlers".

 

It also seems pretty ignorant to write off AJ's whole career and GWE case based off two matches.

[Grimmas]

The "it's cool if you like it" shtick is pretty inauthentic when you follow it up with derogatory comments like "Video game wrestling for an inauthentic age" and "watching AJ Styles pretend to be his favourite wrestlers".

 

It also seems pretty ignorant to write off AJ's whole career and GWE case based off two matches.

I agree to the first statement.

 

The second, I do not. There is only so much time and if you watch two hyped matches of a guy and aren't intrigued, it's time to move from him.

[benjaminkicks]

That's fair. I guess there's too many nominees and not enough time to devote lots of effort on every guy.

 

I guess I just would've liked to see more of an actual review of that AJ/Okada match from JvK, so I could get a sense of why he didn't like it, other than "I don't like the atmosphere". Especially because I find most of his other reviews pretty insightful.

[InYourCase]

AJ Styles vs. Samoa Joe (12/11/05)

 

Tenay's voice just screams "this is wrestling for wieners" to me. Makes TNA hard to watch. Talk about the least cool thing on earth, ha ha. Stupid six-sided ring of course.

 

Styles comes out firing. Snap suplex. Kawada kicks . Misawa elbows. Who's been watching 90s All Japan then! Snapmare. Big dropkick sends Joe down. Crowd pissing me off already and need to stop being so self aware. It's so unfair on these guys that they have to work in these sub-optimal conditions.

 

Joe comes back with slaps and kicks. Tazz Don West a bit over the top on commentary. The presentation is a real hindrance, and so hard to look past. Massive reverse knife edge by Joe. Elbow exchanges. Joe kicks Styles's legs right from off the apron. Giant swing into the railings. Whip into the railings. Joe stops and waits for Styles to get up. One of my least favourite modern wrestling tropes that -- waiting for the opponent to get up. Just a style thing.

 

Joe is stiff as a hell of course. Big knee drop. Back splash. Joe stays on top for some time now. Tenay reminding us that this is for the X Division title, couldn't make this feel less important. I feel like this heat sequence and the level of Joe's dominance is being a little oversold by the announce team. Maybe I'm just used to watching Bob Backlund matches, but Joe hasn't been that dominant.

 

Styles hits a kick. Fucking hell Tazz is so bad, such a outrageous shill. Boston crab by Joe. I'm sorry but Joe just hasn't been on top long enough for Tenay and West to be selling this narrative of him having been on the end of a tremendous beating.

 

Egregious flip over the top by Styles, the "Fosbury flop"? Whatever it was, totally stupid in the context of this match. Terrible spot that makes no sense there. Styles outrageously spotty in this stretch. No rhyme or reason, not cool at all.

 

This is awesome chant from the crowd cements my diminishing patience. Joe with the kicks again. Styles with some comeback offense. Styles has colour, he's bleeding from the mouth. Joe is too. Powerbomb by Styles. Two only. Clothesline by Joe takes his head off. Cover doesn't even get two and Joe is shocked. Sit out powerbomb. Rear choke. Styles with a flashy kick to come back. Styles splash gets two. Announce team have worked to suck all excitement out of this. I never believed that would finish the match.

 

Royce Gracie choke by Joe. And that knocks Styles out.

 

My god. How terribly disappointing this match was. Just bad. I mean the environment does everything it can not to help and the commentary team is abysmal, but I was so disappointed by this. This is the opposite of working smart. Styles was the worst sort of spotty here. Joe's offense and the heat stretch did not adequately set up the story they were trying to tell. The match needed more time. The heated needed greater psychology and cohesion and focus. Styles needed to do a better job of getting over pain beyond just bumping big.

 

I was fully expecting to like this match and I'm surprised by how much it left me cold. Styles and Joe were my great 00s hope, Styles especially was one of the very few guys that stood out as being good when I watched those Low-Ki matches, but with this being as bad as it was, I'm thinking of probably pulling the plug on any further exploration of this era. Is there any point?

 

**

Hm, well, alright.

 

I mean we are on such separate pages here. This crowd is so electric. I can understand hating a crowd for being dead and sitting on their hands, but why on Earth would a crowd that's making noise bother you? They were so into the match and so, so into Joe. The prior month was the X Division triple threat match with these two and Daniels and so everyone was ready for this match and I think it blows the triple threat out of the water.

 

You're suffering from a lack of context with Joe. He was so, by far, the hottest act in the company at this point. He was undefeated (technically) and was putting guys down left and right. It was a big deal when Styles jumped him out of the gate because that was the first time that anyone had really taken it to Joe like that. Joe's dominance was being sold so hard by Tenay & West because it was months of dominance at this point. He was a monster that couldn't be stopped.

 

The "fosbury flop" complaint doesn't really make any sense to me. It was one of his signature moves at the time. Why does it not make sense in the context of this match?

 

Once again, we couldn't be further apart with the presentation and the announce team. Don West is the man in this match. Tenay was on point. Like the crowd, I'd rather have them overexcited (which is a bizarre thing to complain about) than unfocused and quiet.

 

"Styles needed to do a better job of getting over pain beyond just bumping big" is where you completely lose me. He took Joe's offense better than anyone else has. I thought he was an incredible babyface here. I can't imagine what exactly you were looking for here.

 

***** match.

 

 

You could've at least provided a correct date. And modern New Japan is definitely not video game wrestling because no wrestling video game ever made could come even close to capturing the ridiculous amount of counters and counter sequences they pull off, no to even mention how complex it wouls be to translate its selling style into such a medium. But hey you've watched like three random matches I'm sure you know better than me.

It is the correct date. It's from Day 1 of the 2014 G1 Climax. And lol at the rest of your post.

[funkdoc]

From what I've seen of NXT, there are glimmers of it. Although aspects of that show still seems like "wrestling for hipsters" to me.

 

see, here's a crucial point that some people here seem not to realize:

 

"hipster" culture has now become the mainstream culture in america, and in general this is the era of postmodernism.

 

when you look at what's most influential these days, what gets buzz, you look to seattle & portland & san francisco & brooklyn. and a lot of the biggest hit material these days is recycled from either nerd shit (comic books, fantasy novels) or old movies/TV shows. think of how long remakes or homages to the past have been a hollywood staple - everything you say about AJ styles could be applied just as vociferously to, say, JJ abrams!

 

everybody and everything is "self-aware" today, not just wrestling. as an example, check out this clip (audio quality not great, sorry!):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXEBkKEvJjw

 

this is one of the hottest comedians in america. he seems to be trying to tell the shittiest jokes he can think of, as some sort of meta riffing on the entire concept of celebrity roasts. this is the sort of thing that's considered clever comedy in this era.

 

a lot of this is probably thanks to the internet turning more people into nerds on some subject matter or another, but the seeds were sown in the mid-late 90s; think of mystery science theater, space ghost coast to coast, or south park. as we get into the 2000s we have somethingawful and 4chan as online cultural forces, along with the rise to prominence of adult swim and the daily show and family guy, and before you know it adam sandler's wearing a reddit trollface shirt while hanging out with the living meme that is guy fieri

 

personally i believe it's always more fruitful to try and understand a particular culture than it is to write it off, but i just don't like repeating broad historical patterns.

[JerryvonKramer]

I realise all of that funk doc, but as the true postmodern man, like a disappointed Romanitc, I search in vain for authenticity.

 

I won't find it in current era stuff, I will find it in the smoky halls. This is my truth, tell me yours.

[funkdoc]

my short answer: every period has its own authenticity. today's lies in the search for identity as a response to a culture that prizes analytics over social interaction and an onslaught of information on just how absurd everything ultimately is.

 

what got me on this was that i remember you saying you enjoyed wrestling as a cultural snapshot of its era, and i think a portion of the current stuff totally is! but if it's the culture itself you don't enjoy, then nothing doing obviously.

[JerryvonKramer]

I teach a lot of 18-21 year olds. I am in contact with them a good bit. And I've come actually to like my students quite a lot.

 

However, it is clear to me that they have no basic cutlural knowledge. You'd think growing up in the Internet age means they'd know more, but in fact it means they know less. None of them have seen The Godfather.

 

It's like the guy who knows things mainly from The Simpsons, not from the thing itself.

 

A culture of memes and references can't really work if no one actually knows the original works.

 

Our generation -- guys now in their 30s and 40s -- are uniquely cine- and pop-literate. We watched old stuff on TV, we watched old movies (again a lot on TV or home video or DVD), we bought old records, we listened to bands from the 60s even though we weren't alive in the 60s. We are the generation of High Fidelity. Of MTV. We make lists of our top 100 films or whatever. We are the post-moderns. Us.

 

The kids aren't like that. They grew up in an on demand culture and on social media. They engage with the world in a different way. I have no idea what it looks like to them, but I imagine it's like one big in-joke that they aren't in on.

[benjaminkicks]

As a 21 year old myself, I'm counter to that as I am much more alike to that latter group in regards to my tastes and being "cine- and pop-literate", though I do admit that I'm an outlier.

 

But it's an interesting way of describing and interpreting the generational divide.

[Dylan Waco]

Watched a lot of the AJ 2005 stuff and think it holds up brilliantly. I'd rate it over a lot of 80s and 90s stuff that gets widely praised. Maybe I'm 20 at heart.

[JerryvonKramer]

I am definitely an outlier on that 05 match. I want to like Styles, so maybe give me one or two more to look at, and I'll try my best to look past the thick fog of TNA presentation.

[ohtani's jacket]

I dunno if I buy New Japan being post-modern. They tend to have these epic matches in front of small crowds and creates a weird juxtaposition. If they were playing to bigger crowds I think it would seem more natural. The make-up of the crowds is wildly different from the golden years as well. Not much has changed in regard to the presentation other than a bit more video technology being used. The hairstyles follow Japanese fashion trends. I think Arena Mexico and WWE arena set-ups are far more sterile than the New Japan set-up, which is still fairly traditional.

[JerryvonKramer]

To me it felt like it was being worked in an actual vacuum. And that's been my impression every time I've dipped my toe in.

 

Styles was trying to be a heel in that match, but his jawing just seemed to echo in a chasm.

 

But I meant post-modern also in a different sense, which is that I can see the guys echoing previous guys. Styles seems to be like that. Although there's a interesting question about tradition vs. homage.

 

If I watch DiBiase throw a Texas punch and I can recognise he's got that from the Funks, it's tradition. If I watch AJ Styles do an elbow like Misawa and a kick like Kawada, it looks like homage.

 

Perhaps that's me being outrageously biased towards "my guys" and unfair to the modern guys, but I do think there's something to that distinction.

[ohtani's jacket]

You could say the same for dry 70s crowds and any number of touring wrestlers whose heel work met with crickets. I don't think there's anything particularly special about that in regard to the modern era.

 

The homage vs. tradition debate is interesting. I think CM Punk was way too on the nose with his homages and I'm sure there are other workers like that.

[JerryvonKramer]

I was thinking about Benoit doing the Dynamite Kid spots. And that seems pretty firmly "tradition" to me. It might be as simple as, "is this something they learned on the road / in a dojo" or "is this them copying their favourite tapes"?

 

It's my issue with a lot of 00s stuff. I see them busting out the Flair vs. Steamboat chop exchanges (complete with the crowd shouting "woooo"), but it often feels like they haven't "earned" the chop exchange. This was very much my issue with Low Ki.

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, Benoit completely modeled himself after DK so that's s bit different.

[BigBadMick]

I teach a lot of 18-21 year olds. I am in contact with them a good bit. And I've come actually to like my students quite a lot.

 

However, it is clear to me that they have no basic cutlural knowledge. You'd think growing up in the Internet age means they'd know more, but in fact it means they know less. None of them have seen The Godfather.

 

It's like the guy who knows things mainly from The Simpsons, not from the thing itself.

 

A culture of memes and references can't really work if no one actually knows the original works.

 

Our generation -- guys now in their 30s and 40s -- are uniquely cine- and pop-literate. We watched old stuff on TV, we watched old movies (again a lot on TV or home video or DVD), we bought old records, we listened to bands from the 60s even though we weren't alive in the 60s. We are the generation of High Fidelity. Of MTV. We make lists of our top 100 films or whatever. We are the post-moderns. Us.

 

The kids aren't like that. They grew up in an on demand culture and on social media. They engage with the world in a different way. I have no idea what it looks like to them, but I imagine it's like one big in-joke that they aren't in on.

Not to completely derail,but could it be that there's just too many options for these 18-21 year olds? It's easier to jump from clip to clip and believe you have a sense of understanding (especially when there's 50 other things competing for your attention) than to do a deep dive.

 

I'm 37, btw.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's a combination of near unlimited choice and the fact that the method of delivery has mostly changed from TV (you watch whatever is on) to "on demand".

 

I'm pretty sure you have mostly the same TV as us in Northern Ireland, right? And being 37 I'd imagine you'd know, for example Only Fools and Horses.

 

Just be dint of being alive and living in the UK, you know that show. I knew a group of guys, not that much younger than me -- seven or eight years younger -- and not only did they not really know it, but as a result they had no great fondness for it either. They were also pretty unconcerned about filling that gap. Happy to say "yeah that's old and outdated, I'm just gonna watch this American show instead." It's a different mindset. Different way of thinking about the world.

 

This is not your typical generational thing, stuff like Only Fools is a national treasure. It comes from the fact that when they were in their formative years, they were on the computer not watching tv. Only Fools and Horses is also not exactly the sort of thing you are going to go out of your way to seek out or download. It's the sort of thing where you catch an episode one night. You can't "catch an episode" if you basically don't watch TV, or watch everything through BBC iPlayer.

 

We've discussed all this before somewhere on the board. I remain convinced that this goes way beyond the standard things that are lost from one generation to the next. For the person who cares, of course, there's a million and one ways to explore anything you want now. But most of them aren't going to care. And when back before something like Only Fools and Horses could get 10 million viewers without even "trying", just on a random repeat at 6pm on BBC1, now you are never ever going to get 10 million people to all sit down and watch that at the same time. Yes, they'll all watch Game of Thrones, but that's new and happening now. But they aren't going to go back to anything that isn't happening now. Not en masse.

 

So with diversity of choice you lose the notion of a shared cultural cache.