JerryvonKramer Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Bret's score is not changing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I've found Bret to be maybe the best overall worker in the tag matches we've reviewed from 85-87, with a pretty varied collection of opponents. Definitely has the best offense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I've found Bret to be maybe the best overall worker in the tag matches we've reviewed from 85-87, with a pretty varied collection of opponents. Definitely has the best offense What about that sternum bump being his only transition to shine or heat segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 That stuff doesn't really bother me, honestly. And I think he used other spots, like being crotched in the ropes for instance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 That stuff doesn't really bother me, honestly. And I think he used other spots, like being crotched in the ropes for instance Not when the Bulldogs were in the promotion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 As a singles wrestler he branched out. As a tag worker it was the sternum bump. If it doesn't bother you fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I'd like to raise the question again -- do you think guys dogging it in a lot of stuff that made tape is a huge negative and if so, in which category would it reduce the wrestler's score? I don't even mean that to target Bret. It's more of a general BIGLAV question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Man in Blak Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 The big question for me with negatives, especially with regards to effort, is causality - should Bret Hart be seen as "dogging it" for failing to put together a good match with Rick Martel? Should Martel get the blame, as this match could be seen as another entry in a line of underwhelming in-ring performances as a heel in the early 90s? Did they both decide to take a night off and, thus, both deserve to lose points? How do we weigh the increased availability of footage for domestic majors like WWE and WCW/NWA (and, thus, increased odds for seeing someone mail it in) vs. other promotions where our exposure often comes from sets or uploads that have already gone through some sort of curation to emphasize more notable/interesting matches? Â For BIGLAV, this seems like an "intangibles" question but, even then, the implications are so fuzzy that I'm not sure how you weigh it unless you see a truly chronic pattern of underachieving. If you see that with Hart and a particular match type, so be it, I guess, though I'd question how that approach extends to other wrestlers. Â EDIT: Tried to replace some snark with actual thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goodhelmet Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I think it is valid when doing tie breakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I feel dogging it is a big factor. For me as a fan going to a live show and watching a wrestler just go through the motions is one of the most upsetting things. Lets use Bret as an example, I don't need his 5 moves to make me happy. I just need the wrestler to give me a story in the ring. Just make interesting choices . Grab an arm and work it. Work the leg. I don't need 8 billion high spots. On a house show Bret was content to sit in a hold. Work a really long,dull KOTM spot. Look at his IC run on the houseshows they have on the network. The Beserker works harder than him in their match. Their were times he had a spark in him. The best Hart Foundation/Killer Bees match so happens to be the time his parents were in the audience. If you judge Bret soley on his ppv's and tv I can see why people would call him a top 10. If you bother to scratch the surface and watch his houseshow run. Their will be more matches under 3* than over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 The big question for me with negatives, especially with regards to effort, is causality - should Bret Hart be seen as "dogging it" for failing to put together a good match with Rick Martel? Should Martel get the blame, as this match could be seen as another entry in a line of underwhelming in-ring performances as a heel in the early 90s? Did they both decide to take a night off and, thus, both deserve to lose points? How do we weigh the increased availability of footage for domestic majors like WWE and WCW/NWA (and, thus, increased odds for seeing someone mail it in) vs. other promotions where our exposure often comes from sets or uploads that have already gone through some sort of curation to emphasize more notable/interesting matches? For BIGLAV, this seems like an "intangibles" question but, even then, the implications are so fuzzy that I'm not sure how you weigh it unless you see a truly chronic pattern of underachieving. If you see that with Hart and a particular match type, so be it, I guess, though I'd question how that approach extends to other wrestlers. EDIT: Tried to replace some snark with actual thought. Footage works in both ways.  Look at the variety ratings for guys like Ivan and Wahoo, they are low because we only have so many of their good matches on tape.  All the years of strap matches and Texas Death brawls they must have had at the Omni and other major arenas and we don't have them.  If we had the entire careers of Ivan or Wahoo on tape, I'm positive they'd both have 10s for their variety scores and 20+ opponents. As it is, they are hurt by the lack of tape.  Bret is the flip side that, where we have so much on tape that people are arguing about what to include and not include. And after it all he's ended up with 18 opponents and a score of 9 in that category.  That doesn't answer Loss's question though:  I'd like to raise the question again -- do you think guys dogging it in a lot of stuff that made tape is a huge negative and if so, in which category would it reduce the wrestler's score? I don't even mean that to target Bret. It's more of a general BIGLAV question.BIGLAV tends to reward the positive. However, there are places where I can register negatives. For example, Dory's lack of charisma is registered in his poor intangibles rating.  My view is that people give disproportionate weight to negatives and allow it to colour their overall ratings far too much. For example, in the case of Dory, his lack of charisma is used to jettison his entire case. To me that sort of thinking makes the list too close to a list of favourites and too far away from a measure of which 100 wrestlers had the best careers overall. This is why I have six categories of equal weight.  In the case of Bret dogging it on house shows. You are right it's difficult to register it. He has 18 memorable opponents on PPV and TV, so in a sense the strength of that work is counter balancing the weakness of the house show matches. Just as the strength of Flair's peak years are countering the weaknesses of the last ten years of his career.  You're right though that consistency is not really being measured by my system, which benefits a guy like Bret and arguably hurts guys like Arn and Regal.  I guess at this stage I have to just write that off and say "well I don't value consistency as much as these other things".  And I think, generally, I don't.  The existence of poor albums like Knocked Out Loaded or throwaway ones like Under the Red Sky does absolutely nothing in my mind to diminish the Bob Dylan GOAT case. And so I guess Bret dogging it on matches that don't mean a lot in the overall scheme of things, does not diminish his case much either.  I don't know if I really think that, but I think it's what I'm going to run with for this list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015  Bret didn't have a memorable match with Michaels? Come on now. Lawler stuff was one of the few shining lights of 93. Brainbusters match is one of the highlights of late 80s WWF, and Islanders stuff has been given some new light by Kelly and Marty on tag teams back again podcast. My mistake on Fujinami, it should be Tiger Mask and is from 1982 and I reviewed it here: http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/20932-80s-catchup-thread/?p=5697441 I recall Bret having a pretty good showing in New Japan and must have had a mental slip (NJ 82 = Fujinami). He was one of Tiger Mask's better opponents.  Considering Bret and Shawn didn't work that well together, I don't see how it should be a point in Bret's favour for versatility. The Lawler match in '93 involved Doink whom you haven't listed and is offset by how awful their "Kiss My Foot" match was. The Brain Busters match was good, but a throw away bout and not a series like Brain Busters vs. The Rockers and not really proof that Bret matched up particularly well with Arn and Tully. There may be some underrated Islanders stuff out there, but with all due respect to Kelly and Martin a single podcast is not really a huge platform for memorable matches. Likewise, I don't think Bret vs. Tiger Mask is a well-remembered match. I can admit that the variety category is a bit of a fudge. If you read the description in the OP again ... Variety of opponents and memorable feuds: this is a rating for the variety of different opponents with whom the wrestler had great matches or memorable programs.This is a backdoor way of acknowledging some of those out-of-ring aspects of wrestling that are really important and which undeniably affect what goes on in the ring too. Bret vs. Lawler matches might not have been classics, but both guys were incredibly over in the feud, so it was effective pro wrestling.  Does that mean Hogan will be getting Piper, Bundy, Andre, Savage and Warrior? Yet it does.  Hogan has a good chance of capping out for variety. He had that career, indie favourite #234 working in high school gyms in front of 209 people didn't.  I think it needs to be reflected somewhere. And I'd argue it is all still "in ring" because people remember the matches.  Yes, this give massive advantages to guys who were very over and who were world champs. But that's pro wrestling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 It still seems a bit random to me. I also think it's odd that you don't want certain wrestlers to have too many points. Shouldn't you run guys through system and see where they end up instead of trying to manipulate things so that it fits your expectations, or am I missing the point of all this? Are you trying to quantify how you already see workers or is it an experiment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Berserker was a top 5 WWF guy in 92. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted December 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 When did I say I didn't want anyone to have points? Bret looked low (as it turned out, an adding up error), so I pulled him out for a rework. Â Several people pressed to have Kid, Taker and Diesel for Bret. I included them and it gave him a big score. Â Then you started arguing to have names taken off and I said I'm not changing his score again. Â It would be ironic if Bret ended up in my top ten after I've ruled him out of being top tier so many times, but I'm not actively trying to make anyone do well or do poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Okay, I guess I'm misjudging things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 I think saying someone phoned it in on lesser shows is a big negative on someone, negates the fact that most wrestlers we don't have those lesser shows on tape. It seems like an unfair handicap. I have no problem with someone giving extra points for working hard on lesser shows and for someone to break a tie breaking for being lazy on lesser shows, but it seems strange as an overall negative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Grimmas it does exist on tape though. Is it fair that we are missing a lot of Jack Brisco. Your argument is fluid and works both ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Grimmas it does exist on tape though. Is it fair that we are missing a lot of Jack Brisco. Your argument is fluid and works both ways. It exists on tape for WWF guys. The majority of guys it does not. I have no idea what Jack Brisco, Jumbo, etc.. look like in a small town in a minor show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Grimmas when I'm talking about Bret it's on MSG , Boston Garden shows. The house show loop that aired. To me house show footage is the most important barometer. That is where the wrestler was working day to day . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Grimmas your same argument could be used for Flair . Is it fair that so much of Flair's post prime made tape? That's the pro's and cons of footage. Bret and Perfect had great ppv matches. Their house show matches in NY, Boston, and Canada fell way short because Bret phoned them in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Grimmas your same argument could be used for Flair . Is it fair that so much of Flair's post prime made tape? That's the pro's and cons of footage. Bret and Perfect had great ppv matches. Their house show matches in NY, Boston, and Canada fell way short because Bret phoned them in. I'm not using old man Flair against him, though. Â Who was working hard on those shows during that period? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Akeem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Jake, Brainbusters, Hennig, Savage, Hulk, Flair, Steamer , Slaughter to name a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoe Posted December 28, 2015 Report Share Posted December 28, 2015 Owen Hart, Greg Valentine, Tito Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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