JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Jerry Blackwell Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 pinballing as a big man) = 6 Intangibles 4 Great matches 3 Length of Peak 80-87 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work babyface +1 ability to work tags +1 ability to work gimmick matches +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, AWA, Memphis, JCP, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 6 1. King Tonga / Sheik Adnan Kaissey 2. Greg Gagne / Jim Brunzell, 3. The Crusher, 4. Ken Patera, 5. Stan Hansen, 6. Mad Dog Vachon, 7. Col. Debeers, 8. Billy Robinson, 9. Jerry Lawler, 10. Masked Superstar, 11. Dory Funk Jr, 12. Terry Funk Variety = 12 opponents = 6 30 Rick Martel Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 giving 100% in everything he does) = 10 Intangibles 4 Great matches 7 Length of Peak 80-87 = 7 years = 5 +1 ability to work heel +1 ability to work tags +3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, AWA, WCW, Japan) Ability to work different styles / roles = 5 1. Buddy Rose, 2. Fuji / Saito, 3. Brunzell / Gagne, 4. Nick Bockwinkel, 5. Harley Race, 6. Ric Flair, 7. Stan Hansen, 8. Terry Funk, 9. Jumbo Tsuruta, 10. The Islanders, 11. Moondogs, 12. The Hangman, 13. Tito Santana, 14. Terry Gordy, 15. Boris Zuhkov, 16. Jimmy Garvin, 17. Shawn Michaels, 18. Razor Ramon, 19. Randy Savage, 20. Lex Luger Variety = 20 opponents = 10 41 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBadMick Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just looking through some of those peak years. You're not giving Michaels his 2002-10 run at all? And Vader up to 2000 seems a bit of a stretch to me. He was a lot better in All Japan than WWF, but I'd still cut him off around '97. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Misawa Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 +1 (for innovation) = 10 Intangibles 6 Great matches 10 Length of Peak 8 (90-04) +1 ability to work as junior +1 ability to work a different gimmick (Tiger Mask II) +1 ability to carry a promotion / work as ace +1 ability to work tags Ability to work different styles / roles rating = 4 1. Jumbo, 2. Kawada, 3. Kobashi, 4. Taue, 5. Hansen, 6. Gordy, 7. Akiyama, 8. Fuchi, 9. Steve Williams, 10. Johnny Ace, 11. Takayama, 12. Morishima Variety = 12 opponents = 6 Takuma/Naoki Sano, KENTA, Marufuji, Yoshinari Ogawa and Vader should all be in here as well. If I were to stretch this to include every guy Misawa had either several very good tag matches or at least one great singles or tag match who knows how many I'd end up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Misawa's rating does seem low to me, so by all means I welcome people you think are glaring omissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just looking through some of those peak years. You're not giving Michaels his 2002-10 run at all? And Vader up to 2000 seems a bit of a stretch to me. He was a lot better in All Japan than WWF, but I'd still cut him off around '97. Longevity of peak continues to be the most difficult and problematic category. And there are some hard questions. For example should Hulk Hogan really get a 0 or do we give him 81-90? In the cases you outline, I'd be a lot more willing to cut Vader to 97 than give HBK his post-comeback years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Misawa's rating does seem low to me, so by all means I welcome people you think are glaring omissions. Really depends on your threshold for quality of the match, but I'd probably argue all of the names noted above are ahead of Gordy on Misawa's book of work. Same for Chono, and specially Hash & Nagata from the Zero-1 tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 If I were to stretch this to include every guy Misawa had either several very good tag matches or at least one great singles or tag match who knows how many I'd end up with. People who would fit this category: Ohtani, Kojima, Nagata, Hashimoto, Yone, Akitoshi Saito, Takao Omori, Keiji Mutoh/Taiyo Kea, Murakami, Fujinami, Katsuhiko Nakajima, Nakamura/Goto, Hase, Kensuke Sasaki..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 So are you arguing that Misawa should be a perfect 10 in the variety category? The threshold is about ***1/2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Interesting you have Hansen over Tenryu, Eddie and Vader for Intangibles. Any reasons? Also surprised Flair got a perfect 10 for Intangibles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GOTNW Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 I have a hard time thinking you wouldn't think there at least 8 other wrestlers he'd had ***1/2 matches against if you put in the time to watch them (7 actually, since you listed Misawa for Vader but didn't list Vader for Misawa). So yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 So are you arguing that Misawa should be a perfect 10 in the variety category? The threshold is about ***1/2 If one match with a given opponent at that level is enough to include them, then yes, he should be a 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingedEagle Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Have you worked up Kobashi's numbers yet? If not, will you have an opportunity to watch any NOAH footage before doing so? When you factor that in I imagine he'd fare quite well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 So are you arguing that Misawa should be a perfect 10 in the variety category? The threshold is about ***1/2 If one match with a given opponent at that level is enough to include them, then yes, he should be a 10. It's 20 different opponents. The wording is "memorable" rather than ***1/2, so take that for what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Interesting you have Hansen over Tenryu, Eddie and Vader for Intangibles. Any reasons? Also surprised Flair got a perfect 10 for Intangibles.Flair is a 10 because his character work is off the charts and because he carried himself as the epitome of a champion. He's a once or twice a generation type of guy in that category in my view. Hansen has an aura about him, especially in Japan that gives him that intangibles rating, although I could be persuaded to go down (though not up). Eddie's intangibles might be a bit low now you mention it, but currently he's on par with guys like Ted, Shawn Michaels, and Jumbo. I could probably be persuaded to up that to a 7 or even 8. I think Eddie has the character work but not necessarily the aura. Vader I think has the aura of a badass and appropriate character work, but I think lacks that big deal sort of vibe you get from a Rock, Choshu, Flair, or Savage. 6 is still a high rating if you consider that someone like a DiBiase, one of the all-time great heels in my view is there. And Harley Race, for many the quintessential tough guy NWA travelling champ is a 3. It's GWE, so the ratings are on the stingy side. I'd grant you though that it's probably the category that is least measurably quantifiable and most subjective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 As you said, it is subjective, but I believe Eddie clearly had more intangibles than Shawn. The only time Shawn jumped out to me as a charismatic character was when he was playing the dickhead heel in late 1997, and even that was partly due to a knowledge of backstage events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 It may be that Shawn needs to go down as opposed to Eddie going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Eddie did in my opinion eventually peak higher, but it took him years and years to figure out that intangibles piece. He was pretty bland until 1996-1997. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 One little quirk of this is "when do you take the rating from"? Like Austin's intangibles of 10, for example, is clearly based on the Stone Cold run not him in USWA, WCW or as The Ringmaster. Yet other ratings take work from those other runs into account. In my mind, I've justified that sort of thing as "positive stuff counts towards the case", but it is a bit of a fudge if you think about it. I think Eddie is probably a 7 for intangibles and maybe Shawn a 4 or 5? I'm not sure if Rude is a 7. The spreadsheet will make it a lot easier for me to fiddle with scores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 Shawn is probably higher than that for intangibles in my mind. He's not the greatest worker in WWE history, but he's probably the greatest WWE worker in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 My thinking on intangibles was something like: 6 - all time great character work / mannerisms / stooging etc. 7 - as above, plus electric heat 8 - as above, but also aura and star presence 9 - as above, but also makes things feel like a bigger deal 10 - transcendent charisma / X-factor Might make it easier to help me slot guys in. Which is to say that a 6 is by no means a diss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 17, 2016 Report Share Posted February 17, 2016 I think Shawn had all of those things and could easily justify giving him a 10 in that category. A lot of it was him being booked to have all of those things in such a calculated way that it's a turn-off, but that's another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 That would put him in the top 20, which seems bonkers considering it is my list and how much I hate him. I'll have to make a call at some point. The thing is that intangibles is meant to be in-ring only. And I see a lot of Shawn's aura coming from the big money entrance, fireworks and hype. Like, I don't see him doing shit like Flair screaming in pain in a leg hold, or jawing the guy in the crowd or telling some chick his hotel room number right in the middle of a cage match, let alone the aura of a champion, etc. Or like Bruno, zero fireworks, not even entrance music, and the roof is coming off as he gears up for a comeback. Or the crowd going deathly silent when Ivan pinned him. Take away the fireworks and I don't see Shawn being able to generate that sort of energy or heat. See what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted February 18, 2016 Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Flair is a 10 because his character work is off the charts and because he carried himself as the epitome of a champion. He's a once or twice a generation type of guy in that category in my view. Fair Point Hansen has an aura about him, especially in Japan that gives him that intangibles rating, although I could be persuaded to go down (though not up). Vader I think has the aura of a badass and appropriate character work, but I think lacks that big deal sort of vibe you get from a Rock, Choshu, Flair, or Savage. Honestly I thought Vader had a far greater aura than Hansen. Hansen had a sense of danger about him but Vader always had a more threatening and imposing presence, kind of like Andre. Facing him always seemed like a big deal. And probably the most impressive part was that it was like that in almost every setting (NJPW, WCW, UWFi, AJPW etc). The argument could be made it was just Vader being Vader and that doesn't really diminish the fact he had a dominating presence everywhere he went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 18, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2016 Hansen in AJ from about 85 on feels not just dangerous but legendary, you can almost feel the level of respect and awe from the crowd. I've been watching Vader's 92 run in WCW with WTBBP recently and he definitely doesn't have that sort of status. I will be reviewing a pile of Vader's NJ greatest hits soon, so the rating could change. Will keep this in mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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