JvK's Six-Factor Model for GWE rankings [BIGLAV]

[JerryvonKramer]

Okay, I don't object to giving him the 10; convincing arguments.

 

It think it's maybe the 90s All Japan boys who will be affected by this but we'll see.

[MoS]

The intangibles are really hard to rank. I can see why you would give Bryan the score you gave, but the fact that he is the only babyface since Austin and Rock to be massively over with all sections of the fanbase week in and week out means to me that he should get more. The fact that he did it despite the booking and not because of it makes it even more impressive.

[JerryvonKramer]

I'm not giving him more than 4 when Ricky Steamboat also has a 4 and, Bruno aside, is probably the most over babyface I've ever seen in the 1978 footage.

 

Intangibles isn't really a measure of overness, it's a measure of charisma, character work and "X Factor", of which overness is one product.

 

I agree that it is the most difficult category. There may be some tweaks before the end too. I'm not 100% convinced that all the 10s should be 10s, and I might bring Flair, The Rock and Austin down to a 9, leaving only Andre, Hogan and Bruno on 10.

 

What is really really difficult is trying to separate out how much of our idea of someone's character comes from their promos vs. how much comes from stuff they do in matches. Really, this is meant to be a rating of the latter without bringing promos into it. I'm struggling on that with Flair, Austin, and The Rock in particular. I do think both of their character work is "off the charts", but if we take the promos away, I'm not sure if I could justify having them ahead of Savage or Funk.

 

Some other tough ones. I have DiBiase at 6 and Rude and Arn at 7. And this difference literally comes down to Rude's swivel move which -- and I'm thinking about when he tries to do it while he's injured in the Steamboat match -- just gives him scope to do some very memorable things. And in the case of Arn his amazing facials, and again one thinks of Steamboat coming in during that Clash 17 match, I mean Arn might be the best at stooging period (and I'm considering pushing him up to an 8 cos his score is low currently). And it's those fine margins making the difference of a point. Similarly, I think Kawada is going to end up being a 7 to Misawa's 6 because of his facials and ability to show disdain. Likewise Jumbo is on a 6 and Tenryu is on a 7 because of the latter's ability to register contempt.

 

But yeah, it's the hardest category. And the one I'd expect others to have the greatest variance on. Shawn Michaels is another really tough guy for that too, some might argue he's a 9 or 10, others as low as a 2 or 3. I went with 5 and split the difference.

[MoS]

Fair enough on Bryan and the Steamboat comparison.

 

I can understand knocking Rock down for character work not translating inside the ring, but I have to disagree with Austin. Call me crazy, but I legit think Austin might be GOAT at incorporating character work in his match. Some of it was out of necessity because of his neck injury, but he was smart enough to understand and modify his work accordingly.

 

I feel that his work as an arrogant chipper in WCW us radically different from his work as a pissed off entitled, rather whiny would-be superstar in ECW, to a redneck rebel shoving it at his peak. I think his amazing character work is why he managed to elicit such great sympathy in his matches, despite him working so much from the top and always being booked extremely strongly.

 

I am, of course, biased, as Austin is my favourite of all time, and his podcast makes it clear how much work and thought he put in his matches, but I don't believe I am being irrational.

[The Man in Blak]

It's tough for me to see Big Bossman (who has the same intangibles score as Bryan -- a 4) pulling off a segment like this:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cny4Q0tILRE

 

But, then again, I think Dustin Rhodes (also a 4) deserves a higher score too, considering how idiosyncratic the Goldust character was in the ring. His early promos were bizarre because they were random quotes from old movies, but it was his in-ring character work that got under people's skin and made the gimmick so memorable.

[JerryvonKramer]

The thing is with Bossman is that even before he's said a word or done a single thing, he's got an advantage over a guy like Bryan. Why? Because he was a 300+lber. The fact that the rating is only a 4 is actually a slight knock on Bossman that he wasn't able to get over the danger of being a big man more in his career.

 

This is even clearer to see with the ratings of Andre (10 - basically the master of working as a giant) and Big Show (5 - which, for someone of his size is really a disgraceful score). There are some reasons for that, like booking, out of either guys' hands, but Big Show just failed time and again to capture the aura that Andre had and I don't believe it is entirely down to wins and losses.

 

I will consider putting Dustin's I score up, but I need to watch some prime Goldust first. It's been a while.

 

As for the clip, fine, but if I'm going to start giving points for stuff like that I need to rethink if Dory or Benoit are really 0s -- two guys whose gimmick was "great wrestler" and two guys who were very over at different times essentially because of that idea. Or any number of other guys I've low-balled, and think about whether they are really that low. To me it's hard to say what is just overness and what is character work. And in all the times I've seen Bryan, his character work has never struck me as being anything more than what is required. He's over because he's a great wrestler, not because of his character work. The 4 I've given him reflects something "intangible": he's a nice, personable guy, whose passion for the business seems to come through in everything he does. THAT is also part of why he's over, and that's what the 4 is for. But on a scale where Randy Savage is a 9 and Dory Funk Jr is a 0, I can't justify giving him higher.

 

That said, I think the fact that people are honing in on Bryan's scores is a strong indication that he's going to do very well in the final votes.

[JerryvonKramer]

So I don't forget him:

 

Undertaker

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 1/3 = 4
Intangibles 9
Great matches 5
Length of Peak [never one of best in world] = 0

+1 ability to work heel
+1 ability to work tags
+1 ability to work gimmick matches


Ability to work different styles / roles = 3

1. Hulk Hogan, 2. Shawn Michaels, 3. Mankind, 4. Jeff Hardy, 5. Kurt Angle / Rock, 6. Brock, 7. Randy Orton, 8. Batista, 9. Edge, 10. Big Show, 11. HHH, 12. CM Punk, 13. Vince, 14. Kane, 15. Austin, 16. Diesel, 17. Bret Hart


Variety = 17 opponents = 7

28

[InYourCase]

Before you do, it's first worth asking the question : "on a scale where Ric Flair is a 10 for variety, should Bryan also be worth a 10?"

 

If we legit think the answer is yes, go ahead and name the 30.

 

 

Could someone do the same with Flair? That's a serious question and someone like Parv has watched much more Flair than I have.

 

The list GOTNW made for Danielson is outstanding and there are a lot of noticeable names that he left off. Aries, YAMATO, Jimmy Rave, Samoa Joe, Bobby Fish, etc. - all guys that Danielson has worked with in their best match or one of their best matches.

[The Man in Blak]

As for the clip, fine, but if I'm going to start giving points for stuff like that I need to rethink if Dory or Benoit are really 0s -- two guys whose gimmick was "great wrestler" and two guys who were very over at different times essentially because of that idea. Or any number of other guys I've low-balled, and think about whether they are really that low. To me it's hard to say what is just overness and what is character work. And in all the times I've seen Bryan, his character work has never struck me as being anything more than what is required. He's over because he's a great wrestler, not because of his character work. The 4 I've given him reflects something "intangible": he's a nice, personable guy, whose passion for the business seems to come through in everything he does. THAT is also part of why he's over, and that's what the 4 is for. But on a scale where Randy Savage is a 9 and Dory Funk Jr is a 0, I can't justify giving him higher.

 

That's fair, though it's also sort of funny, since one of the suspected reasons that WWE was so hesitant to push Bryan is because they felt that Bryan was only over because of the "Yes" chant.

[Loss]

Bryan was over because he was a real person with relatable motivations and challenges in an artificial world. He was the modern version of the common man but not the hypermasculine version of that we've seen in previous generations. He's what top babyfaces of old would be in the Information Age where manufacturing jobs are gone and your average middle class family has dad working behind a cash register all day instead of standing in an assembly line. He captured that cultural shift in a way no one else in wrestling really has.

[JerryvonKramer]

 

Before you do, it's first worth asking the question : "on a scale where Ric Flair is a 10 for variety, should Bryan also be worth a 10?"

 

If we legit think the answer is yes, go ahead and name the 30.

Could someone do the same with Flair? That's a serious question and someone like Parv has watched much more Flair than I have.

 

The list GOTNW made for Danielson is outstanding and there are a lot of noticeable names that he left off. Aries, YAMATO, Jimmy Rave, Samoa Joe, Bobby Fish, etc. - all guys that Danielson has worked with in their best match or one of their best matches.

 

Well if you like podcasts, part 3 of my Flair series was Pete going through his top 20 matches, which in itself gives some idea of variety. And those are all GREAT matches. It's here: https://soundcloud.com/jerryvonkramer/fair-for-flair-3?in=user-178479841/sets/fair-for-flair

 

I can't remember what he listed, but try this:

 

1. Steamboat - career best match for Steamboat (and for Flair too)

2. Race - the match before Starrcade is arguably Race's career match

3. Lawler - I didn't think their match was brilliant but it's at least ***3/4, and the TV segment leading up to it is probably like top 5 tv segement ever. #15 on Memphis set results.

4. Kerry von Erich - possibly career best match for Kerry, depending on your mileage with the Jumbo match. #3, #4, and #8 on Texas set results.

5. Jumbo - I think the 83 match is ***** and a great demonstration of what both guys could do in a long old-fashioned technical match. #5 on All Japan set results.

6. Martel - 10/21/85 is in the ***3/4 range, #37 on All Japan set results

7. DiBiase - from 11/85, all-time classic angle and a really memorable match, also a nice example of Ric kicking the shit out of someone, which you don't always get to see. #3 on Mid-south set results.

8. Dusty - arguably a disappointing in-ring feud, but also arguably Dusty's career match

9. Windham - Barry's career match (Battle of the Belts as well as 1/20/87)

10. Wahoo - Wahoo's career match (note: we do not have Johnny Valentine matches in full on tape), #20 on Mid-South set results.

11. Bockwinkel - the title vs. title bout is memorable and pretty interesting to watch, #21 on AWA set results

12. Magnum TA - Magnum had better matches with DiBiase and Tully, but his Flair matches are in the **** range

13. Garvin - Garvin's career match (the 87 title win, but see also 85 studio bout as well as Starrcade 87)

14. Morton - Morton's career match. This is the "nose" one in the cage from GAB 86.

15. Taylor - Terry Taylor's career match. See 6/1/85, it's a REMARKABLE performance from Ric to carry Taylor to a match that good. #16 on Mid-South set results.

16. Luger - Luger's career match. Take your pick, but I'd go with Wrestlewar 90 probably. I do love Starrcade 88 too.

17. Funk - "I Quit" and GAB89, of course. I don't want to say they are Funk's career matches, but honestly, what would be better from his resume?

18. Sting - I'm not a fan of Clash 1, but certain respected people like our own Kris Zellner, still see it as a ***** match. Sting's career match in my view is with Vader, but he owes a lot of his career to Flair making him a star at Clash 1.

19. Savage - I love Wrestlemania 8 bout. If you take in the post-match promo it's one of the most memorable. Not 5-star, but still a great match for WWF in that time frame. I also dig them in 95-6 but more for the storyline.

20. Tenryu - just an absolutely awesome and fun match. Not career best for either guy, but a hardcore fan's dream match that really delivers on everything you'd want it to be.

21. Vader - not 5-star, but one of the few matches that has made me tear up and one that has a real place in my heart.

22. Shawn Michaels - I'm not a fan and your mileage may vary, but like the Vader match, it is pretty emotional. Their match from 92 is kinda "under the radar".

23. Arn Anderson - the singles match from 1995 or so, where Arn gets the fall on Flair, is a contender for Arn's career best singles match, and certainly one of his most memorable moments.

24. Bobby Eaton - random TV defences, but I think the one from 91 might be Eaton's career best singles match

25. Brian Pillman - as above really, I'm not sure what better matches Pillman had. Maybe the Liger one.

26. Butch Reed - again I'm not sure what better singles matches Reed would have in his resume, and it would be in the conversation. #24 on Mid-South set results.

27. Koko Ware - same deal, #8 on Memphis set results.

28. Mr. Perfect - loser leaves town match from 93, in the slim body of memorable matches Hennig had, it would have to be one of them

29. Hulk Hogan - bouts from 91 or bouts from 94. I have some problems with how they are worked, especially in 94, but they are some of the better matches of Hogan's career.

30. Mick Foley - not a huge fan of this bout, or indeed of Flair the garbage worker, but some people see it as a late classic.

31. Jake Roberts - #14 on Mid-South set results

32. Chris Adams - #11 on Texas set results

33. Kevin von Erich - #13 on Texas set results

34. David von Erich - #16 on Texas set results

35. Terry Gordy - #24 on Texas set results

36. Triple H - again not a fan of this run of Flair's, but perhaps memorable to more modern fans (Taboo Tuesday 2005)

37. Bret Hart - the title switch is worth seeking out. And there are some handhelds out there. Would probably make a Top 20 Bret Hart matches comp.

38. Edge - again, I couldn't care less, but if you are a modern WWE fan, it was probably memorable. Raw match from 2006.

39. Undertaker - Wrestlemania 18. I could leave it too, but it is part of Flair's and Taker's legend at this point.

40. Bruiser Brody - unpopular around here, and with me, but tell me what's a better Brody match? Talking St. Louis 1983 if you aren't sure.

41. Jack Brisco - this is from 3/7/80 and a lovely little TV bout, not essential, but a good look at Jack. And "memorable". They also have one from 8/18/82, which is well worth seeing.

42. Greg Valentine - his former tag-team partner. This is from 12/16/80. Good 15 minutes and one of the better matches we have from JCP at that time.

43. Ole Anderson - strap match from 10/17/81, and honestly I can't think of a better singles Ole match.

44. Carlos Colon - they go about 35 minutes in 1982. And would surely make any comp of a "Best of Colon", although it probably wouldn't make a best of Flair comp. I might review this soon.

45. Billyjack Haynes - this is a match from Portland circa 1984. Have a look to see what Flair can do with a limited opponent.

46. Sam Houston - love this match up, classic "Flair underestimates underdog" narrative. Simple and effective storytelling.

47. Road Warrior Hawk - I hate Hawk in this match, but look at how good Flair makes him look.

48. Jimmy Garvin - the cage match tells a great story in my view, and is probably Jimmy Jam's career singles match

49. Tasumi Fujinami - Chad and I liked the matches on WTBBP, and it probably got too much of a rough ride in the past. Footnote in the career of both guys, but not *bad* by any means.

50. Roddy Piper - he had matches with him in the early 80s in MACW, but I'm going with 91 MSG match here.

 

Think I'll leave it there.

 

Incidentally, this "anyone who was anyone" aspect is a huge part of what makes Flair the GWE.

 

Like who else wrestled Dory Funk Jr (match I didn't mention) AND Shawn Michaels AND Hulk Hogan AND Randy Savage AND Ted DiBiase AND Tenryu AND Jumbo AND Wahoo? AND Steamboat AND all three of the von Erich brothers. No one that's who.

 

And with the greatest respect to Bryan's impressive list of opponents -- and he will get 10 for it -- it does make some slight difference to me that Flair can reel off 30+ memorable matches with bona-fide legends in the business. Like, no one else ever had that career before and no one else ever will again. This sounds like hero worship coming from me, but it really isn't. No one else had that career or anything even close to it.

[InYourCase]

That list is going to be a big help. I'll check out the podcast, also. Thanks.

[funkdoc]

i thought the iron man (from...Boston?) was head & shoulders above all the other Flair-Bret matches, so that's my 2 cents if you're interested in digging

[andrew79]

These are the matches from the podcast:

 

20. 11/06/85 – Flair vs Dibiase

19. 07/11/85 – Flair vs Wahoo

18. 09/15/92 – Flair vs Tenryu

17. 06/08/83 – Flair vs Jumbo

16. 05/03/85 – Flair vs Taylor

15. 12/26/88 – Flair vs Luger

14. 04/11/87 – Flair vs Windham

13. 12/27/93 – Flair vs Vader

12. 11/15/89 – Flair vs Funk

11. 02/20/90 – Flair vs Luger

10. 07/23/89 – Flair vs Funk

09. 02/20/89 – Flair vs Steamboat

08. 06/08/82 – Flair vs Jumbo

07. 07/05/86 – Flair vs Morton

06. 09/25/87 – Flair vs Garvin

05. 10/12/85 – Flair vs Von Erich

04. 02/14/86 – Flair vs Windham

03. 05/07/89 – Flair vs Steamboat

02. 03/18/89 – Flair vs Steamboat

01. 04/02/89 – Flair vs Steamboat

[joeg]

Explain to me how Flair is a 10 for variety when he basically has had 3 different matches? Really its the same 3 matches just with 30 different opponents.

[JerryvonKramer]

The forum has a search function. Suggest you use it.

[funkdoc]

Explain to me how Flair is a 10 for variety when he basically has had 3 different matches? Really its the same 3 matches just with 30 different opponents.

 

even besides misunderstanding what "variety" means in this context, i'll also add that the system gives a lot of credit to guys who could work the same way and get over anywhere. think vader here

[JerryvonKramer]

This thread isn't really for this discussion. But me, Loss, Chad, shoe and god knows how many other guys have gone over that old line at least half a dozen times in the past four years. If you want some light reading, search for Bret Hart vs. Ric Flair (Microscope), The Flair Formula (again, Microscope) and also read his nomination thread.

 

At this point, the line feels lazy and simply won't wash with many of us. If you've watched his matches against all fifty of those opponents I listed and still feel that way -- fine, I'll think you are totally mental and wonder if you have eyes or a functioning brain, but fine -- but just throwing that line out there after we've been over it so many times isn't really cool.

 

But please, let's leave this thread for the ratings, I have a lot of guys to get through.

[goodhelmet]

I agree that Flair is more versatile than joeg is giving him credit for. However in fairness, his question did pertain to a specific rating you gave Flair. Have a cuppa.

[JerryvonKramer]

We've discussed it three million times before. So there's no fairness. More ratings soon.

[JerryvonKramer]

Honky Tonk Man

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 1/3 = 2

Intangibles 3

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work different gimmicks (Blonde Bomber)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 2

 

12

 

 

 

Iron Sheik

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 = 5

Intangibles 3

Great matches 4

Length of Peak 1979-85 = 6 years = 4

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Great Hussein Arab" / "Col Mustafa")

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, GCW, WWF, Mid-South, WCCW, WCW, indies)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 8

 

Variety = 4

 

28

 

Chief Jay Strongbow

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 3/3 = 4

Intangibles 3

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+2 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, WWF, Detroit, Florida)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 3

 

15

 

 

Ivan Putski

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 0/3 2/3 = 2

Intangibles 4

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work different gimmicks ("Mighty Igor")

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (JCP, GCW, WWF)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 3

 

14

 

Ernie Ladd

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 3/3 = 5

Intangibles 5

Great matches 0

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (GCW, JCP, WWF, Mid-South, LA, WWA, Central States)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

 

Variety = 4

 

19

[JerryvonKramer]

Jake Roberts

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 2/3 3/3 = 5

Intangibles 7

Great matches 2

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Stampede, GCW, WCCW, Mid-South, WWF, WCW, ECW)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 7

 

Variety = 4

 

25

 

 

Jerry Blackwell

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 "agile for a big man") = 7

Intangibles 5

Great matches 3

Length of Peak 1977-86 = 8 years = 5

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, AWA, Memphis, Japan)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 5

 

31

 

Jerry Lawler

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for punch) = 8

Intangibles 8

Great matches 6

Length of Peak 1977-94 =17 years = 10

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 abiltiy to work technically

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, AWA, WWF)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 10

 

48

 

Jerry Valiant

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 3/3 1/3 (+1 for turnbuckle bump) = 5

Intangibles 1

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world = 0

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, Central States, Australia, Canada)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

Variety = 2

 

11

 

Jim Breaks

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 3/3 (+1 for The Jim Breaks Special) = 10

Intangibles 9

Great matches 7

Length of Peak 1972-1984 = 12 years = 7

 

+1 ability to work tags

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 1

 

Variety = 9

 

43

 

Jim Brunzell

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 2/3 (+1 dropkick) = 6

Intangibles 1

Great matches 3

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world = 0

 

+1 ability to work singles

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF, Canada)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 3

 

Variety = 6

 

19

 

Jim Duggan

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 1/3 (+1 for "caveman wildness") = 4

Intangibles 6

Great matches 4

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world = 0

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Mid-South, WWF, WCW)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 5

 

23

 

Jimmy Garvin

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4

Intangibles 3

Great matches 2

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world = 0

 

+1 abiltiy to work babyface

+1 ability to work singles

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, Florida, WWCW, WCW)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 4

 

17

 

Jimmy Snuka

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 0/3 (+1 for jumping off cages) = 5

Intangibles 5

Great matches 3

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world = 0

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, PNW, WCCW, JCP, GCW, AWA, Memphis, Japan, England)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 5

 

24

 

Jimmy Valiant

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 0/3 3/3 = 3

Intangibles 6

Great matches 1

Length of Peak [never one of best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, JCP, Memphis, San Francisco, GCW, Canada, Florida, WWA)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 3

 

19

 

John Cena

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for "interiority") = 7

Intangibles 5

Great matches 7

Length of Peak 2003-15 = 12 years = 7

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 abiltiy to work brawls

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

 

Variety = 9

 

40

 

John Tenta

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 1/3 2/3 = 4

Intangibles 6

Great matches 0

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Japan, WWF, WCW)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 6

 

20

 

Johnny Ace

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 1/3 1/3 = 4

Intangibles 2

Great matches 2

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

Variety = 3

 

13

 

Johnny Saint

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6

Intangibles 5

Great matches 4

Length of Peak 1972-1987 = 13 years = 8

 

+1 ability to work tags

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 1

 

Variety = 9

 

33

 

Jose Lothario

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 3/3 (+1 for punching) = 7

Intangibles 4

Great matches 2

Length of Peak 1969-1979 = 10 years = 6

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work technically

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Florida, WCCW, Mid-South)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 7

 

30

 

Jun Akiyama

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 3/3 = 8

Intangibles 3

Great matches 8

Length of Peak 1996-2015 = 19 years = 10

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

Variety = 10

 

41

 

Jushin Liger

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for innovation) = 8

Intangibles 7

Great matches 9

Length of Peak 1989-2004 = 15 years = 9

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

+1 ability to work brawls

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, Japan, TNA, Mexico, indies)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 8

 

Variety = 8

 

49

 

Kamala

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 0/3 1/3 1/3 = 2

Intangibles 4

Great matches 0

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (WWF, WCCW, Memphis, Mid-South, WCW, AWA, Central States)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 7

 

17

 

Keiji Mutoh

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 (+1 for springboard elbow) = 6

Intangibles 7

Great matches 4

Length of Peak 1989-96 = 7 years = 4

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+2 ability to get over in multiple markets (WCW, NJPW, AJPW, WCCW)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 5

 

30

 

Ken Patera

 

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 3/3 2/3 = 6

Intangibles 3

Great matches 3

Length of Peak 1976-84 = 8 years = 5

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (AWA, WWF, Memphis, GCW, JCP, Southwest)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 7

 

Variety = 6

 

30

 

Kensuke Sasaki

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 1/3 1/3 = 5

Intangibles 3

Great matches 6

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 6

 

24

 

 

Kenta Kobashi

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 (+1 for being a living cartoon) = 9

Intangibles 8

Great matches 10

Length of Peak 1991-2006 = 15 years = 9

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

Variety = 10

 

48

 

 

Killer Khan

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6

Intangibles 4

Great matches 3

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches

+3 ability to get over in multiple markets (Stampede, WCCW, Mid-South, Florida, WWF, Japan)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 6

 

25

 

Koko B Ware

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 1/3 = 5

Intangibles 2

Great matches 2

Length of Peak [never one of the best in the world] = 0

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

+1 abiltiy to work gimmick matches

+1 ability to get over in multiple markets (Memphis, WWF, Florida)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 4

 

Variety = 5

 

18

 

 

 

Kuniaki Kobayashi

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 3/3 2/3 = 8

Intangibles 3

Great matches 5

Length of Peak 1980-85 = 5 years = 3

 

+1 ability to work heel

+1 ability to work tags

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 2

 

Variety = 5

 

26

 

 

 

Larry Zbyszko

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 1/3 2/3 3/3 = 6

Intangibles 5

Great matches 4

Length of Peak 1979-92 = 13 years = 8

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

+2 ability to get over in mutliple markets (WWF, WCW, AWA, GCW, indies)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 6

 

Variety = 6

 

35

 

Low Ki

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 3/3 2/3 2/3 = 7

Intangibles 1

Great matches 6

Length of Peak 2001-15 = 14 years = 8

 

+1 ability to work babyface

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

+1 ability to get over in mutliple markets (indies, WWE, TNA, Japan)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

 

Variety = 8

 

35

 

Magnum TA

 

Basic (offense, selling, psychology) 2/3 2/3 2/3 = 6

Intangibles 5

Great matches 4

Length of Peak 1984-7 = 3 years = 2

 

+1 ability to work tags

+1 ability work gimmick matches

+1 ability to work brawls

+1 ability to work as ace / carry promotion

+1 ability to get over in mutliple markets (Mid-South, JCP, Florida)

 

Ability to work different styles / roles = 5

 

Variety = 6

 

28

 

 

------------

 

No. of workers currently rated: 120

 

Current threshhold score to make top 100: 19 (18 and lower doesn't make cut)

[MoS]

I love Low Ki's intangibles rating. I thought I was the only one who got annoyed by him that much. I remember reading somewhere "So you throw shoot kicks in a worked environment. Good for you."

 

I am not that familiar with Bryan's indy run, but can someone make an argument that he deserves a 9 or a 10 for great matches?

 

I would also give Liger 3 for offense.

[Downend2005]

I would agree that Liger would deserve a 3 on offense.

 

I've really enjoyed this thread and agree with your rankings for the most part, but what did stand out to me was John Cena scoring a 9 for variety and Liger scoring an 8. I'm sure Liger could be argued as a 9, or possibly even a 10?

[Matt D]

Big Show needs +1 for moonsault