WrestleMania 32

[WingedEagle]

Maybe I'm alone there. Bray is one of the least interesting guys on the roster for me. Just don't understand how or why you drop Brock into this supernatural nonsense.

[Loss]

Yeah the match might actually be really good, but the buildup would include Bray reciting way too many fake Jewel lyrics.

[Slasher]

Why would Brock care? Even if we put aside the CTC aspect of it, it isn't like Brock has a list of people he wants to work with. He isn't really a wrestling fan (at least not WWE). It isn't like Brock thinks to himself "Man I really hope I get to work with Daniel Bryan. The match would be really exciting for the fans!" He will wrestle anybody that they put in front of him and then tell them to leave him alone for a few months so he can shoot squirrels.

[Slasher]

And as far as Bray Wyatt is concerned, he is still one of the chosen ones for the next era. He is always going to get the plum spots as well as guys like Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins would. So he was pretty much gonna get a crack at a guy like Brock eventually anyways. They gave him Undertaker at Mania already so....yeah.

[Loss]

Brock apparently cared a lot about how they presented him early on with the loss to Cena and was mad about certain aspects of it. He also really wanted the match with Austin. I think he'd care in the sense that he wouldn't want them to do anything that might hurt his ability to make big money down the line. A Wrestlemania opponent beneath him could be perceived as lowering his market value, even if I don't really think it's the case.

[WingedEagle]

Brock apparently cared a lot about how they presented him early on with the loss to Cena and was mad about certain aspects of it. He also really wanted the match with Austin. I think he'd care in the sense that he wouldn't want them to do anything that might hurt his ability to make big money down the line. A Wrestlemania opponent beneath him could be perceived as lowering his market value, even if I don't really think it's the case.

 

This. Never doubt for a minute that his priority is increasing his pile of money, so I imagine he'd only take issue with booking and opponents that compromise future earnings.

[Parties]

I was never big on the "Roman Reigns Hit Job" conspiracy theory, but I'll absolutely buy the conspiracy theory of "Vince/Hunter/Steph will intentionally tank the biggest Mania of all time in order to make themselves look like stars and everyone else on the roster look like third-class dweebs who should be thankful to even have jobs, Lesnar included".

 

The amount of wishful fantasy booking everywhere online this month that has revolved around some combination of Bryan, Nakamura, and Styles saving Mania has been incredible. Just incredible. It's still real to y'all, dammit.

[thebrainfollower]

I think you're slightly mistaken, they truly believe they ARE the stars.

 

If Dana approved it, you be darn sure Steph would go over Ronda in a screwjob the Raw before Mania if each is in Reigns/HHH's corner.

[Loss]

I think it's more that WWE doesn't really respect its stars than it is that they see the McMahons as the stars. Those are almost the same thing but not quite. The camera shaking is because they don't know how to work, just like scripting their promos is because they don't know how to talk. Of course they emphasize every week how broke and hopeless all of these guys would be without the benevolent McMahons supporting them. Vince said on The Steve Austin Show that he wanted guys "willing to learn" -- not guys who know a lot and are capable of applying it, but guys who will shut up and do what they are told to do. So these guys are stars, yes, but only because the McMahons allow them to be. Unless they aren't stars, of course, in which case it's because of their own failings.

[Slasher]

Brock apparently cared a lot about how they presented him early on with the loss to Cena and was mad about certain aspects of it. He also really wanted the match with Austin. I think he'd care in the sense that he wouldn't want them to do anything that might hurt his ability to make big money down the line. A Wrestlemania opponent beneath him could be perceived as lowering his market value, even if I don't really think it's the case.

First of all, Lesnar doesn't like Cena. So you have a situation where he comes in with big expectations and the first thing they ask him to do is job to a guy he doesn't like and never respected (at least the Cena he remembers from 2002-2003). He does it though because he is a pro...then Cena breaks script to do that dumb as fuck promo after the match when he is supposed to be selling. Anyone, even guys who would normally be detached from power plays like he is, would get pissed off about that. Second of all, it's freaking Austin. Everyone wants his last match because he is one of those in the running for greatest wrestling characters ever. Lesnar isn't immune from that level of respect or desire to work with Austin because it is Austin. Third of all, yes Lesnar isn't gonna want to work Adam Rose in the third match of Wrestlemania and would probably nix the idea but that's not Bray Wyatt. To me Bray Wyatt makes more sense of an opponent than Kevin Owens because of how the WWE presents Bray Wyatt's character. If its down to Wyatt vs another midcarder they have available at the moment (because remember, almost everyone else is out injured), it isn't a bad way to go. Of course he could just decide to sit out but thats where an easy paycheck wins over any desire to protect his value.

[Russellmania]

I personally love Bray Wyatt as a worker and think his character work is fantastic. Most of my problems with him come down to booking. They did all of those guys a huge disservice by trying to shoehorn them into that Undertaker/Kane hocus pocus role. To me the Wyatts need to be more like psycho killers, not supernatural wizards. More texas chainsaw massacre, less poltergeist.

 

I think as a band of psycho cultists who just want to fuck shit up then have a lot of mileage with that group. WWE fell into the trap of thinking that Undertaker got over because of all the stupid supernatural stuff but I'd argue he got over in spite of it. I mean to me the most memorable Undertaker moment as a kid was him trapping Warrior in a casket and that wasn't a magic trick it was just a really fucked up attempted murder. Bray and co need to be doing shit like that. They can't keep telling us how scary these guys and then never let them do anything scary. Fucking up Brock on RAW was the most scary thing they've done in forever.

[Russellmania]

also I see people say that WWE doesn't take any risks and doesn't make new stars but then they insist that Brock should only wrestle a guy who's already on his level. You can't have it both ways. I understand that it's important to protect Brock, but he's not going to be around forever and they need to use him to elevate their next generation of guys while they have him. I think Reigns got a ton of momentum out of that Wrestlemania match and Rollins got a lot out of last year's Rumble triple threat and WM cash-in. I know they see Wyatt as right around that tier of talent and IMO he's exactly the kind of "on the bubble" guy you want to hopefully use Brock to get him to the next level.

 

Obviously they need to actually execute it well, but I can't complain about them at least trying.

[Cap]

I don't know - the Wyatt vs Brock thing is both interesting and terribly not interesting to me. I am all about them building new stars and making guys matter and if they really do go the direction of Bray it COULD work, but Brock - to me - is so unique right now that those builds can't be done in same way they try to do it with other people. I mean they are more or less plugging Brock into the position they put Ambrose, Reigns, Cena, Bryan, Taker and jericho in. Bray vs "Someone" because Brays group is crazy and wants to pick on stars - or wants power - or has some weird vendetta that we can't know about. The problem is, Bray never wins feuds (except against Bryan). He is a great character and I like some of his matches, but to cycle Brock through something like this is a trap. If he wins - great, Bray loses AGAIN. If he loses - he is the ONLY person to lose to Bray in a meaningful way in forever. I actually kind of liked the unique visual of Brock getting destroyed by the Wyatts and left Raw kind of interested in the whole thing, but I wasn't all that interested in it as a possible mania match. The only way it might be an interesting story is if they build it to Bray doing what Taker couldn't do as a way of muddying the Taker over Wyatt thing from last year's Mania and reestablishing Wyatt indirectly as taking on Taker's spot again. They would need to go more crazy hillbilly and less magic with it.

 

That said, this all feels like misdirection to me. Owens is hinting he has beef with Lesnar. Wyatt attacks Lesnar (among everyone else). It feels like maybe an excuse for everyone to eliminate Brock while actually accentuating him as a monster.

[Loss]

also I see people say that WWE doesn't take any risks and doesn't make new stars but then they insist that Brock should only wrestle a guy who's already on his level. You can't have it both ways. I understand that it's important to protect Brock, but he's not going to be around forever and they need to use him to elevate their next generation of guys while they have him. I think Reigns got a ton of momentum out of that Wrestlemania match and Rollins got a lot out of last year's Rumble triple threat and WM cash-in. I know they see Wyatt as right around that tier of talent and IMO he's exactly the kind of "on the bubble" guy you want to hopefully use Brock to get him to the next level.

 

Obviously they need to actually execute it well, but I can't complain about them at least trying.

 

I think you can have it both ways, though. The idea is to build guys up throughout the year so that by Wrestlemania season, they are viable opponents for Brock. Just a match with Brock isn't really a form of meaningful movement up the card, much like cashing in MITB rarely works in making a permanent top-tier star.

[Slasher]

Watched the segment with the Wyatts. It felt more like it is just building up to that hot Fastlane main event that was speculated. Probably a Final Four kinda thing that some have mentioned, with Wyatt/Reigns/Lesnar/someone else that is not AJ Styles.

 

It kinda bugs me that people are down on the idea of Wyatt being a Lesnar opponent but are cool with the idea of Lesnar facing Shinsuke fucking Nakamura of all people. Nakamura is great, don't get me wrong but a 2016 Wrestlemania match? LOL yeah right.

[WingedEagle]

If you value Nakamura, the idea of him in a big match is enticing. Similarly, if you think Wyatt is awful, the idea of him in a big match is not so appealing.

[sek69]

They may as well be using the tumbler with the Royal Rumble balls to book Mania this year. Also wasting Tyler Breeze's call-up just to have a season ending payoff for Breaking Ground is an even bigger slap in the face than it normally would be considering they desperately needed over acts to fill up the card. Instead, he's the next member of the Bo Dallas/Neville/Kalisto "maybe he wasn't going to be John Cena but we kneecapped him out of the box" group.

[Slasher]

If you value Nakamura, the idea of him in a big match is enticing. Similarly, if you think Wyatt is awful, the idea of him in a big match is not so appealing.

Three months out from the show Shinsuke Nakamura is not WWE character ready to have a major match at Wrestlemania unless they went balls out on advertising it as an "interpromotional" match with a NJPW star who then became a WWE act regularly afterwards but even then I don't know what kind of hook that has with casual fans who don't follow puro or care about it. Bray Wyatt on the other hand is an established WWE act who the fans know and can buy in a match with Brock. I am not even arguing that Nakamura couldn't be a big deal at some point for the WWE (although to be honest I have serious doubts about that due to how WWE has gone about things and as Goodhelmet pointed out earlier in here or other thread, this is Vince's show, I can't trust that being endorsed by Triple H overrides years of Vince mentality), but it's not happening in three months. AJ Styles has a better chance for immediate success because he's been a major name on the US indies and for the #2 and #3 US promotions in recent past and even him I don't believe will have the kind of impact that warrants a Brock Wrestlemania match in three months.

[Coffey]

Most WWE fans aren't even familiar with the characters from NXT. They would not really know who Nakamura is at all. Even the smarkier NXT crowd was pretty mild for the announcement of Jushin Thunder Liger. The commentators sure as hell aren't going to get them over. Michael Cole is horrendous at his job.

 

I know Wrestlemania and to an extent Royal Rumble have pretty smart crowds but it would still be a big risk. And if you debut in the Rumble & then don't win, it's hard to not look like just another guy.

 

At this point, to me, Brock Lesnar feels like an André the Giant style commodity. He's above everyone & I just don't think he should lose which is an awkward spot to be in. I wouldn't put him in title matches, I'd just let him kill people on big shows. Just like I don't think it does any good to bring back The Rock and have him lose either. If you're going to use guys that aren't on the full time roster, I certainly wouldn't feed them people that will be working again the next night on RAW. If you have the full-timer go over though, you have to see the push through. Don't then put them in a feud right after and have them go 50/50 and don't put them in a feud that's a step down. Daniel Bryan at Wrestlemania beat Triple H, Randy Orton & Batista all in the same night and won the top prize in the company, then the best thing they had for him to do after that (before he got injured) was slotting him into a feud with Kane? Who the hell was that supposed to help?

 

What WWE does is bring in part-timers, have the part-timers beat the main roster guys, then wonder why the main roster guys are looked at like they're nobodies. Then they bring back other part-timers to beat the first part-timers & then the next night you're left without either one of them & have three hours to kill. So great, The Undertaker & Brock Lesnar look strong, but Bray Wyatt looks like a chump and you have to build the next three months using him.

 

WWE needs to bring back video packages & hype videos. They need to bring back mouthpieces for the wrestlers that aren't good promos. They need to hide weaknesses and emphasize strengths to try to get everyone over. Instead, if someone sucks at talking, they're like "go out there and talk for fifteen minutes live with this shitty script and let's see what happens" then wonder why the crowd turns on it. I always think back to Matt Morgan. Dude looked like a million bucks and was a good talker, so they gave him a stutter. I guess to see if he could overcome adversity or some shit... but that's just counter-productive.

 

It's like WWE doesn't even try to maximize their potential profits because they don't care. Doing *this* would make more money but doing *that* would give Vince McMahon a hearty chuckle... so let's go with *that.*

 

I can't remember who said it but I read someone say that if you have more than one top guy, you have to pay more than one guy top guy money. I've always had that in the back of my mind when I see people trading wins on free TV. We had John Cena as the top guy. Now we're getting Roman Reigns as the top guy. In the past we had Hulk Hogan and Austin as the top guys. It's like WWE doesn't want too many top guys at the same time. Then if someone gets hurt, they're in panic mode.

[Cap]

I get the argument about Nakamura, but Bray hasn't won a significant match in forever. He is putting Kane over at house shows, for crying out loud. The last really meaningful win Bray has that I remember was two years ago against Bryan. I know Bray is a known commodity, but I am not sure it really makes THAT much more sense to pair Brock with a guy who hasn't been successful in actual matches than it is to put him with someone who doesn't have a WWE record at all.

 

I would mark out for Nakamura vs Brock; it would suck me in, but I am not saying it is a great solution at this point.

[WingedEagle]

 

If you value Nakamura, the idea of him in a big match is enticing. Similarly, if you think Wyatt is awful, the idea of him in a big match is not so appealing.

Three months out from the show Shinsuke Nakamura is not WWE character ready to have a major match at Wrestlemania unless they went balls out on advertising it as an "interpromotional" match with a NJPW star who then became a WWE act regularly afterwards but even then I don't know what kind of hook that has with casual fans who don't follow puro or care about it. Bray Wyatt on the other hand is an established WWE act who the fans know and can buy in a match with Brock. I am not even arguing that Nakamura couldn't be a big deal at some point for the WWE (although to be honest I have serious doubts about that due to how WWE has gone about things and as Goodhelmet pointed out earlier in here or other thread, this is Vince's show, I can't trust that being endorsed by Triple H overrides years of Vince mentality), but it's not happening in three months. AJ Styles has a better chance for immediate success because he's been a major name on the US indies and for the #2 and #3 US promotions in recent past and even him I don't believe will have the kind of impact that warrants a Brock Wrestlemania match in three months.

 

 

For the masses, that may very well be correct. I'd be into a Nak match tomorrow. On the other hand, after the last 2+ years I don't think 3 months is nearly enough time to turn Bray into someone who'd make a credible and interesting opponent for Brock. In fact he may have a lot more to overcome than Nakamura or any other fresh face.

[Slasher]

Seemed like people were into the segment where the Wyatts destroyed Brock so ummm...not really. Looks like it would be easy for people to buy in.

[Cap]

Really? Completely based on sort of uncritical feeling, I kinda felt like I was in the minority in being into the segment. I am not doubting you at all, but where are you drawing that conclusion from? Just curious.

[jcmmnx]

The fans were dead silent during the Wyatt/Lesnar angle. I seriously didn't hear one person in the crowd make a noise. Weeks of Bray spouting supernatural bullshit at Brock is about the last thing I want to see. Brock's character wouldn't give a shit about any of that stuff. Bray will run his mouth a bunch and Brock will suplex his fat ass back to the midcard. Losing to Brock in a hard fought match is only going to make the fans want to cheer Bray, and unless they plan on turning him I don't get why they would do the match. Brock vs Ambrose makes more sense.

 

I don't think Brock vs Nakamura is likely(it's probably more likely Vince doesn't know who Nakamura is), but it's arguably the two best big match workers in the world both at their peaks at the biggest show of the year. So yeah fuck Bray Wyatt lol.

[Slasher]

Really? Completely based on sort of uncritical feeling, I kinda felt like I was in the minority in being into the segment. I am not doubting you at all, but where are you drawing that conclusion from? Just curious.

Admittedly via the very unscientific method of word of mouth within my pro wrestling circles in person and online. I mean those people are real WWE fans, people who don't care what's going on outside that promotion's bubble, and sees only WWE wrestlers as wrestling stars as presented by the one company. Those are the people who's very likely going to bother watching Wrestlemania that I know of. I don't assume them to be in the minority but hey I can be fooled.

 

Edit- and yes they know about the NJPW folks coming in but like with Asuka, they just don't get why they are "big deals" to people like us on the board.