Hiroshi Hase

[WingedEagle]

Hiroshi Hase vs. Masa Chono (12/11/92)

 

Unlike OJ and more like shoe and Winged Eagle in Yearbook comments, I thought this was a very good or even excellent match. I guess with being NWA Champ, Chono had been watching Harley Race matches because he worked as weak as a kitten here, making the finish pretty staggering. This is one of the more one-sided competitive matches you will see for that reason. I like this one because Hase got to show off his offensive arsenal and Chono rag-dolled for him, and Hase is very consistent in keeping his offense targeted on specific bodyparts (a lot of neck damage in this one, and we got to see some pile-drivers, which I'm surprised Chono was willing to give and take after the Austin one). I did not notice anything particularly egregious in Hase's selling. He was on top for most of the match, and did continue selling his leg down the finishing run until his fist pumps which are his version of Hulking up I suppose. Some cool bombs thrown in this one. ***3/4

 

Hiroshi Hase vs. Masa Chono (8/6/93)

 

I loved Hase's assault on the neck in this match. DR Ackerman described the work as "aimless", what the fuck match was he watching? Sick piledriver worthy of Backlund, stomp and elbow on the back of the neck hit with conviction and authority, Stonecold Stunner (in 1992), swinging neckbreaker, reverse chinlock. How anyone can call that "aimless" is absolutely beyond me and I'll call that out because it's a puzzling criticism that I'd love to hear him explain.

 

Hiroshi Hase is playing himself right off my GWE list with these G1 matches. They're just not THAT good. Overly long, repetitive and awkward. Why am I watching Hase do neckbreakers for an extended period of time? Where is this going?

It seems simple to me: Hase wants to win a wrestling match, and he wants to do that by hurting his opponent enough to pin him. And with the piledriver he hurt Chono's neck which has a history of being injured since he injured it in September of 1992 after taking a piledriver from Austin. And so where is it going? Basic psychology.

 

Just ABC logic, follow up hurt neck with ... Move that targets neck. And then another one. And then another. Aimless my arse. Forgive the rant, but I'm not having that. And why does it need to go so long? Chono is meant to be a world class wrestler so he's going to take some putting away. I struggle to understand that post by Ackerman, and was absolutely shocked to read that someone wrote that about THIS match. Hase is also NOT repetitive in this match. He pulls out tons of moves you don't typically see him do. He even did the Bossman jump onto the second rope.

 

Chono has much more time on top in this match and I dug his assault on Hase's injured ankle, although the weird goat noises he made throughout are ... Weird and pretty annoying. But sound psychology again, series of leg holds, shinbreaker. It's very solid stuff, although I will note that Chono's execution was sloppy on occasion both here and in the last match.

 

Hase continues to sell that leg during his next offensive portion. And goes right back to that neck with a German before things get more back and forth. It's neck vs. ankle. And this is extenuated when Hase throws his boot off. Hase switches up a bit to work Chono's legs too with a great figure four on the outside. Loved the two of them kicking out each others' legs, and I thought Hase was phenomenal in selling the pain of the injured ankle on the kick, his screams of pain in the figure-four after it were pretty awesome too. Why don't people like Hase more? I don't get it; the dude was just brilliant at pro wrestling.

 

Finishing stretch and near falls were hot as hell and very exciting. Hase still kept selling that leg too. And I popped for the kick out on the bridging Northern lights suplex. And then the work on the neck AND on the legs is paid off with an upside down STF thing in a totally PERFECT pay off that had been built to since literally minute one of the match.

 

This match seems like a real lost classic to me. Just such perfect psychology throughout, consistently excellent work in my book here. And I was surprised not to see higher ratings in the yearbook, because this is a fucking GREAT match. I'd say it is better than matches I have at 4.75 like Arn Anderson vs. Barry Windham from 92 or the Rick Rude vs. Ricky Steamboat from Superbrawl 2. 4-stars, honestly, is low-balling it. Aside from some slight execution issues with Chono -- and we give Taue or Tenryu a pass for that in many a five-star affair -- I cannot think of single issue I have with this match. It is perfectly told, the psychology is perfect, and the match builds to a crescendo that then pays off that psychology in the most logical manner possible. Best Hase match I've seen, best Chono match I've seen. I encourage people to re-watch and re-evaluate because this is just phenomenal stuff here in my book. I'd probably rank this in my top 20 matches of all time, maybe just behind Jumbo vs. Misawa 9/1/90. I can't see what it is losing any stars over at all, and would love someone to explain why this is not a five star match. For me, it is.

 

*****

 

 

So of course I fell off adding my notes to everything on the '93 Yearbook about halfway through the year (note to self: get back on it), but wanted to add that this match is just so incredibly under the radar.

 

My brief notes from originally watching the match way back when:

 

 

Hase with a slam early then goes to work on Chono's neck and throat, with elbows, dropping him on the ropes and guardrail. Really vicious, focused attack.

 

Delayed Gotch piledriver. Hase then works a dragon sleeper to the mat. Taking the entire match, just single-minded in his attack.

 

Chono counters headlock with a suplex and works the leg, but is met up top with a northern lights superplex.

 

Chono back with Yakuza kick and suplex. Chono goes to the STF, but Hase reverses and transitions to a figure-four and they roll to the floor in the hold in an outstanding spot!

 

Hase releases and Chono eventually, dramatically beats the 20 count which felt like a legit possibility in the G1. He's back with a Yakuza to the knee, flying shoulder tackle, power bomb for near fall.

 

Chono to figure-four and this time he rolls it outside, forcing Hase to beat the count back in, where he fires back with 2 uranages for a great near fall as they return to the neck work. Speaking of that, Hase takes him to suplex city for some big near falls, and while Chono mounts a last ditch effort with a DDT, we finish where things started a submission that results from the persistent attack to the neck throughout. Awesome match. Big run for Hase!

 

****1/2

 

This was amazing and I thought clearly ahead of the Muto match in '91 or Rude in '92 as Chono's career outing. You never hear much about '93 as an all-timer but this is up there with some of the best G1 matches ever. No whole hog, 5 star love here as its still Masa Chono and despite the tremendous psychology and layout he's not someone who can build a match like the All Japan boys or put together the kind of finishing run I look for in a match that I'd put on my list of all-timers. But I did think this was the best match of 1993 taking place outside of All Japan or All Japan Women.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Shiro Koshinaka and Takashi Iizuka (3/14/91)

 

House show rematch of the tag Parv raved about. Decent house show work though went a little long for my tastes. The folks in attendance got their money's worth, though.

 

Hiroshi Hase and Kensuke Sasaki vs. Rick and Scott Steiner (3/21/91)

 

I can see folks being into this if they like high octane sprints, but the Steiners have always been a bit of a guilty pleasure of mine and I still thought this was superficial.

[ohtani's jacket]

Re-watched the '93 Hase/Hashimoto match and there's a strong argument for the Chono match being better in terms of scope if nothing else. The leglock work seemed less significant than people make out, but they don't work the surprise pin into an epic finishing stretch. I dunno how flukey it is, but it's the kind of thing that nine times out of ten wouldn't come off. So it's more of a flash pin than the Chono/Hase struggle.

[JerryvonKramer]

Hitoshi Hase vs. The Great Muta (9/14/90)

 

I much preferred the 92 match to this because I felt it was pretty lacklustre from Muta before the blood, he was lying in holds in the most boring possible way, and Hase was a bit more junior-y in general during that opening stretch. Completely throwaway. Then the blood starts to flow, but I felt that the blood was filling in for real emotion or intensity here and the levels of hatred that mark the 92 match are missing here. Just felt more gimmick orientated in general. It's still a very good match, but it's not the all-time level classic the 92 one is. Mutoh is much more charismatic as "Muta" than as himself.

 

***3/4

 

Looks like I need to go to the 91 Yearbook for Hase's match against Liger. Does anyone know which disc it is on? Would save me some time hunting for it.

[Childs]

I'm glad you guys put a spotlight on that Hase-Chono match, because I had forgotten it existed. I agree that Hase's control section would have felt more dynamic if Chono had struggled against more of the moves or teased a couple of comebacks. But it was by no means bad. The match popped off in the finishing stretch, which was genuinely great. In that sense, I can see the comparison to a modern NJ main event, but that shouldn't be taken as pejorative. Hase turned in one of his best selling performances; I always love it when a guy rips the wrap off his busted leg. If I was a star person, I'd have it 4 or better--not quite a classic but a real pleasure.

[El McKell]

Just watched that Hase-Chono match and I have no doubt that reading this thread killed my ability to enjoy it because i was thinking about what people said and what i thought of the match the whole time.

​Anyway, Hase's working over the neck section was kinda annoying because of how many times he just picks Chono up to hit another move I wish he would go for a cover once in a while, he doesn't go for a single pin during this section, he hits 4 neckbreakers, 2 stunners, a jawbreaker and a piledriver.

​Chono working over Hase's leg is far far more compelling, Hase does an awesome job selling and unlike Chono, he fights back, he looks for the armbar and rollup and also hits a random insane top rope northern lights suplex. Throwing away the kneepad made no sense but it was awesome, same goes for having his ankle bandage on outside of his boot.

​Hase waving photographers out of the way before they start rolling towards the ropes for the first figure-4 that ended up on the outside was dumb as fuck.

​Chono's breathing is headwrecking.

​Also my enjoyment of this match was hurt by the fact that my internet died with about 1 minute left and I had to watch the last minute about 2-3 minutes later.

​I can't give a star rating because it's impossible for me to compare a match where all I was thinking about this thread the whole time to the way I normally watch matches. I'll have to watch it again years from now when I've forgotten all about this to throw snowflakes on it.

[JerryvonKramer]

It's a good demonstration of why I always rate then read. But it's kind of impossible sometimes when things come to us pre-read or pre-hyped or pre-criticised. Nothing to help that though either.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hiroshi Hase vs. Jun Akiyama (5/1/98)

 

This pretty much bored me. Long opening mat sequence in a promotion where matwork was never a forte. Seemed the very definition of "laying around in holds" to me. Not only that, but it was blown off in the same manner that people are always complaining about in other styles. Hated the exploder vs. ura nage no sell battle even if the crowd really loved it, and thought the leg lock sequence with the push-ups was out of place in the last five minutes. Hase and Akiyama baring their teeth and grunting at each other isn't my idea of great selling, but if you're into Hase then it's no doubt a different story. In many ways these guys are similar to me -- decent mechanics with high end offence, but not that great at selling or psychology (for want of a better word.) How charismatic they are is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the nuts and bolts of what they do are wanting at times.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hiroshi Hase vs. Kenta Kobashi (8/26/97)

 

This was okay but nothing really special. I imagine a lot of All Japan vs. New Japan dream matches would be that way. It was pretty much your classic slow build wrestling match, and I can see how people who like that type of build would enjoy this, but to me a lot of the submission work was drawn out and the throws weren't that exciting either. I could see that they were working around Kobashi's limitations on the mat, but why bother going there if it's not a guy's strength? I get a bit restless when I'm detached from a bout and so the strikes and what not seemed ho-hum to me and the finishing stretch felt like me going through the motions of watching a finishing stretch, but on an intellectual level it as all fairly straight forward and serviceable.

 

I think I'm done with Hase now. He was a good worker whose biggest strength was his versatility, but I wouldn't rank him as a great or even excellent wrestler. Just not good enough in any one particular area aside from bleeding, which isn't high on my list of criteria. He had the ability but didn't apply it in a way that really resonates with me. On to someone else.

[JerryvonKramer]

Fantastic demonstration of OJ's overall wrongness!

 

I kid, I think it's fun to see contrasting opinions, and it is a worthwhile exercise.

 

I would like to think that most people who like pro wrestling, especially of the US 80s variety, would be far closer to my takes than to OJ's in this thread -- and this is somewhat borne out if you cross check responses in the 1990s yearbooks. Hase is the most complete Japanese wrestler I've come across outside of AJPW, like a sort of Japanese Barry Windham with more charisma, and would contend many many of OJ's conclusions in these reviews (and you can have a bit of fun contrasting my reviews with his on the same matches in this very thread). If you haven't watched any of these, I'd strongly recommend doing so, and I would also have fun seeing other people's takes on them.

[ohtani's jacket]

I think everybody agrees on Hase's best matches. I just don't like him enough that his supplementary stuff is that interesting. I'm not sure who his US equivalent is because I tend to compare like with like and there are plenty of Japanese workers I think he is comparable with. I get why you like him, but like I said, my thoughts were in line with Meltzer's ratings. Even with matches I didn't love I could see how he could give that rating. You went about a half star beyond what I thought was reasonable for many of his bouts. So, that half star represents your enthusiasm for him I guess.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think everybody agrees on Hase's best matches. I just don't like him enough that his supplementary stuff is that interesting. I'm not sure who his US equivalent is because I tend to compare like with like and there are plenty of Japanese workers I think he is comparable with. I get why you like him, but like I said, my thoughts were in line with Meltzer's ratings. Even with matches I didn't love I could see how he could give that rating. You went about a half star beyond what I thought was reasonable for many of his bouts. So, that half star represents your enthusiasm for him I guess.

 

I guess my main question to you would be about the reasons for not ranking him. I don't think there are that many guys with such a strong resume of matches in the 4+ region. And I see people are routinely voted for with much slimmer and less impressive bodies of work.

 

I just struggle to think there have been 100 workers with a better level of talent and output on tape as him. Maybe there's been fifty or so, but 100?

 

He does work a lot of NWA-style matwork, which I know you don't care for and I know you don't connect with his brand of charisma / character work, but I wouldn't necessarily say those things are particularly central to his case. It's more that he had a reasonably long history of delivering pretty good matches. More so than, say, Regal who didn't have nearly as many matches in that range in that same time frame.

 

I suspect all of the 90s yearbook watchers will vote for him, which should be indicative. But the reason I keep stating this case is because I fear that as a result of these exchanges most people will have perceived 1. That I "lost" this battle with you OJ, whatever reason, and 2. That Hase is not worth checking out as a result of your reviews. It's actually one of the aspects of GWE that I've disliked the most. I simply HATE the idea that me pimping someone could actively hurt them, and it really isn't one of the things that should be taken into consideration when people vote. Sort of thing that has made me fall out of love with the board really. And I honestly find it slightly upsetting.

 

Anyway, my point is that 90s NJ among a lot of people, especially the heavies, is kind of underexplored. It's also not that easily available on YouTube and you'd need to know where to look for these matches if you don't have yearbooks (keyword: Ditch). It should be about people watching stuff and drawing conclusions, but with the volume of stuff to see, my impression is that people will take any excuse not to bother. If that comes down to "well, I trust OJ more than I trust JvK" then so be it, but you can see why that would make me pretty uncomfortable. This is kind of after the fact of course, since most ballots are now cast I'd imagine.

[Loss]

This is as good a place to mention this as any. OJ, I sense that you're not really a fan of pro-style matwork at all. Headlocks, hammerlocks, armbars, figure fours, half crabs, sleepers, bow-and-arrows ... the more common holds in All Japan and the old NWA. Is that a fair statement? I've noticed that most of the matwork that gets praised -- and not even just by you but a lot of people at the board -- is more of the "tricked out" variety from lucha libre or WOS, or the more shooty stuff that we'd see from the UWF and all its spinoffs. Is that accurate?

[cad]

I don't think that stylistic differences have all that much to do with specific holds used. Headlocks and hammerlocks are fairly common in lucha libre, and I've seen all of the rest used multiple times with the exception of the sleeper.

[Loss]

I'm trying to pinpoint what it is about the matwork that's more in line with how NWA champs and the All Japan guys worked that makes it less appealing in many circles lately. Maybe that's not it. I'm just trying to get to to it.

[ohtani's jacket]

Parv, I don't think anyone is going to dislike Hase because of what I wrote. And I don't think anyone will refrain from voting for him because of this thread. I don't really see this thread as a "battle." Ideally, it would be full of discourse, but Hiroshi Hase isn't exactly a contentious topic. If I hadn't replied to this topic it would have been you pimping a string of Hase matches with little or no response. Is that what you'd prefer? I think it's more suited to a review site/blog or a podcast than a message forum, but if you want to lay your stuff out there without any feedback just say. Your sudden Hase love piqued my interest in his stuff because Jerome and Williams had commented on my criticisms of him when I watched the Tenryu match. I don't agree with most of the people I enjoy reading on this site and thought we were thick skinned enough to not like the things that each other say.

The results will bear out how people feel about Hase. I can't pretend to like him anymore than I do. Given my track record, a year from now I could love him.

[ohtani's jacket]

This is as good a place to mention this as any. OJ, I sense that you're not really a fan of pro-style matwork at all. Headlocks, hammerlocks, armbars, figure fours, half crabs, sleepers, bow-and-arrows ... the more common holds in All Japan and the old NWA. Is that a fair statement? I've noticed that most of the matwork that gets praised -- and not even just by you but a lot of people at the board -- is more of the "tricked out" variety from lucha libre or WOS, or the more shooty stuff that we'd see from the UWF and all its spinoffs. Is that accurate?

I certainly belong in that category, but it doesn't apply to everyone. WingedEagle wrote a great post recently about why he prefers more traditional matwork. For me, the tricked out stuff is a preference. I don't expect it from styles that never exhibited it, but I'm hard on Japanese big league matches that aren't "shooty" enough and Euro matches that are too Americanized.

[JerryvonKramer]

Parv, I don't think anyone is going to dislike Hase because of what I wrote. And I don't think anyone will refrain from voting for him because of this thread. I don't really see this thread as a "battle." Ideally, it would be full of discourse, but Hiroshi Hase is not exactly a contentious topic. If I hadn't replied to this topic it would have been you pimping a string of Hase matches with little or no response. Is that what you'd prefer? I think it's more suited to a review site/blog or a podcast than a message forum, but if you want to lay your stuff out there without any feedback just say. Your sudden Hase love piqued my interest in his stuff because Jerome and Williams had commented on my criticisms of him when I watched the Tenryu match. I don't agree with most of the people I enjoy reading on this site and thought we were thick skinned enough to not like the things that each other say.

 

The results will bear out how people feel about Hase. I can't pretend to like him anymore than I do. Given my track record, a year from now I could love him.

I think the reality is that very few outside of the yearbook watchers and me will be ranking him or even considering him really. We'll see, but that's my prediction.

[ohtani's jacket]

Hase is not some unknown guy. He's had a good rep since the moment I came online.

[JerryvonKramer]

Hase is not some unknown guy. He's had a good rep since the moment I came online.

 

I guess it really depends on who these 70+ voters are.

[Jimmy Redman]

I'm not a Yearbook person and I'll be voting for Hase, for what it's worth. I come out somewhere in between Parv and OJ on him.

[Jetlag]

Hase placed #33 in the Smarkschoice list, so the idea that he is some kind of undiscovered great or unfairly dismissed worker is funny. It's just that people have had their share of japanese style heavyweight epics and gotten busy with fresher stuff. That's okay.

 

The idea that this is some kind of "battle" is also funny. You should stop taking every different opinion as a personal attack at you.

 

NWA style matwork vs. lucha/shootstyle/etc is interesting. I don't think there is such a clear difference between them. Some of it is good, some of it not so much. IIRC the NWA matwork is more about building to a transition. When the transition is a letdown you feel cheated because you just sat through a bunch of hammerlocks and headlocks for nothing. When a lucha or shootstyle match ends in a letdown, atleast there is a chance you saw some sweet wrestling before that. For what it's worth, all kind of matwork can be dull and listless.

[JerryvonKramer]

I do not recall saying at any stage that Hase was a discovery. What I said is that I doubt he's going to get that many votes.

[JerryvonKramer]

And if I was especially tetchy in this thread it is because I went in and gave a bunch of these matches some pretty positive reviews and then OJ went in and gave them lukewarm ones. It's something I don't recall seeing basically anywhere else on the board.

 

I am cool with OJ and have no beef, but that did make me slightly irritable to say the least.

[GOTNW]

I'm trying to pinpoint what it is about the matwork that's more in line with how NWA champs and the All Japan guys worked that makes it less appealing in many circles lately. Maybe that's not it. I'm just trying to get to to it.

In most matwork I enjoy (shoot stuff, lucha, wos etc.) submissions are a threat. My favourite is the shoot style, where ideally every hold can be a viable nearfall. That's really lacking in the NWA stuff. I can however enjoy the matwork itself without that threat, as I do with traditional New Japan style. Though New Japan does have some holds that are a threat what's more important to me is that the matwork is varied. With lucha the 2/3 falls format and a lack of nearfalls (though it isn't nearly as present as in WOS stuff) also really helps, but I do find the struggle to get to the bigger holds enjoying to watch. I can watch a long Lou Thesz headlock spot but the struggle and the intrigue of keeping the hold and trying to fight out of it isn't really preserved in 80s stuff.