JaymeFuture Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 For this week's podcast we're returning to our "court case" format to argue over CM Punk, on the charge of fraud and misrepresentation - in that he and his WWE career didn't live up to all the hype (the internet and his own) surrounding him going in and throughout. We're looking for your thoughts on which side of the fence you sit on. Do you feel CM Punk lived up to the internet cheerleading and underground buzz synonymous with his name for years and surpassed it, or do you think he fell short of his and his supporters' claims? As always, the best contributions (or "witness statements", in this instance) will be read on the show and you'll be credited accordingly. So where do you weigh in on this, guilty or no, and why? EDIT - The Trial of CM Punk (featuring a great many of your contributions is now online and available to listen to at the following link: http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/play/w98psn/SCGRadio71-TheTrialOfCMPunk.mp3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 CM Punk was a massive overachiever. I don't see how anyone could think he didn't live up to the hype. What hype was there even? I don't really recall any at all. What did people expect he'd be able to do that he didn't other than headline Wrestlemania? He became a bonafide top guy and worked with everyone who was around during his run, which is a pretty big leap from starting off facing lots of criticism from HHH and Shawn that his wrestling style looked too simulated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I've had this conversation several times in the past couple years. Without a doubt he had a great career in WWE but he's more a top guy in the ilk of a Jericho or Edge and less than guys like Austin, Rock, HHH, etc. The problem was he saw himself in the later group and he clearly viewed his run as a disappointment because he didn't reach that level. I think he was on his way to becoming the company's primary mechanic and he wanted no part of that. He wanted to be a made guy that would headline manias and it just didn't happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 The reason for all the Internet hype was because after his "shoot" promo on Raw, articles on Punk got hits, more so than other wrestlers of a similar stature. In that sense he delivered, even though WWE dropped the ball on the angle in spectacular fashion within a month (Nash costing him the title at SummerSlam, losing to Triple H, etc). After that he was pegged into place, as John Cena's understudy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Even that was a promotion, though. Not saying he should have been happy with just that, but he did come out of all of that better off than he was going in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Couldn't agree more with Loss--Punk's career was a massive success relative to his tools and background. He overcame all sorts of deep WWE biases relating to look, indy origins, etc. to become one of the top few guys in the company. And he paved the way for others from the indy boom to take over much of the roster. Was he a star on the level of Austin, Rock or Cena? No. But for a physically awkward dude who got off on playing iconoclast, he did a hell of a lot in Vinceland. I can't imagine any sane person thinking in 2005 that he'd do better than he ended up doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I went to a number of indy shows from 2001 to 2004 back when he was making his underground indy rep. Never once was he the best guy on the show and never once was he in the best match. He far exceeded my expectations of what he would do in the WWE. At his last show in Philly for ROH where he had the time limit draw with Daniels people were chanting "Boring" and I was wondering how the fuck is this guy going to make it in WWE. I saw serious potential in Brian Kendrick, Low Ki, Colt Cabana, American Dragon, Russ Haas, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Steve Corino, Bobby Rude, and a bunch of other guys I saw in MCW, ECWA, ROH, MLW, CZW, etc. However CM Punk was not one of them. His WWE career truly exceeded all of my wildest expectactions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Couldn't agree more with Loss--Punk's career was a massive success relative to his tools and background. He overcame all sorts of deep WWE biases relating to look, indy origins, etc. to become one of the top few guys in the company. And he paved the way for others from the indy boom to take over much of the roster. Was he a star on the level of Austin, Rock or Cena? No. But for a physically awkward dude who got off on playing iconoclast, he did a hell of a lot in Vinceland. I can't imagine any sane person thinking in 2005 that he'd do better than he ended up doing. What damns him is that for one moment in time, everyone thought that another boom was possible, that the glass ceiling would finally shatter, that he was too hot, too savvy, too big to fail, that he could be the one to actually beat the machine, that the moment had finally come, and then it was over and he was just another guy again and the stars were out of alignment for another three years. For a moment there, he looked like the savior, and the machine ground him up and spit him out just like anyone else. Is that a fair notion to have? Of course not. Should he be seen as a guy who hugely overachieved instead? Who did change things and open doors? Probably. But I think people can't help themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcmmnx Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Punk broke down the doors for all the indy guys that followed. He made a ton of money, and was at one point 1B to Cena's 1A, and out selling him in merchandise. I'd say his WWE career was a massive success. He turned out to be a much better fit in the WWE style than he was trying to do indy movez he wasn't athletic enough to do. He was at the time he left the best big match worker in the company. His promos were never as great as the ones he cut on the indies, but he still had the most memorable promo of the last 10 years in WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Death From Above Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Quality of his work put totally aside (as I wasn't watching regularly during his run), I do find it amazing just what an impact he had on casual fans, to the point that quite a few of them I know legitimately believe (or at least want to believe) that he's going to be really successful in the UFC. He's legitimately convinced a lot of people that he is something special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childs Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 He did beat the machine. He did shatter the glass ceiling. He was a top guy and would have continued to be a top guy. Setting the bar for success at Austin-level supernova just doesn't make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/14115-cm-punk-greatest-promo-ever/ Revisit that. I think you can get a sense of why people feel how they do. I'm not even saying I feel that way, but in that moment, it seemed not just possible, but probable. And the night after? From our good friend John: Lucy with the Football. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidebottom Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 If somebody doesn't respect Punk for what he did in wrestling, that person is a fool in my opinion. Even if you don't like his work (I loved it) you have to take your hat off for how far he went in the WWE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Like everyone else he was targeted for political assassination and killed off by HHH at the exact moment when his popularity became a threat to the Game's never ending conquest for complete control and absolute supremacy over the contemporary wrestling landscape. That said, there is a lot to criticize about Punk. He could be dreadfully boring and lazy when he was upset about his on screen direction. Despite getting a very long title reign, he came out of that run looking weaker than he did when he went into it. He is one of the most egregious visible spot callers in wrestling history, and he was less than precise (I'm being generous) in the ring. However in many respects Punk was a wrestling genius, and he certainly got it better than most of the allegedly "big time stars" who have emerged post Monday Night War era. This is especially evident when you look at what Punk was able to do with secondary feuds and angles, that weren't necessarily designed to be big drawing cards. Things likes the Straight Edge Society feud with Rey, or the slow heel turn, feud, and eventual loser leaves town angle with Jeff Hardy, are among the best and most interesting things WWE has done in the last decade. On this point I'd argue that Punk was basically his generations Jake Roberts in the sense that he could make secondary feuds feel like the most important things on a show, because he was the best the company had at getting over an angle. I don't entirely understand the question, because hype is relative, but Punk is a guy who was always more over than his push so it seems absurd to argue that he didn't live up to some weird standard put on him by delusional fanboys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cross Face Chicken Wing Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Saying Punk's WWE career didn't live up to the hype is like claiming (insert name of NBA star) didn't live up to the hype because he's not as good as Jordan. It's silliness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 The hype of him going in was that he was probably a moron for it and that Joe had made the better call because he was almost immediately featured in a better light in TNA. Obviously he overcame that hype. I think there was an entirely different level of anticipation after the pipe-bomb, and even more so immediately after Summerslam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 I see Punk as almost like the Jake Roberts of this era. Cleverer than most of the guys around him and a better promo, mostly disappointing matches (at least for me, quite removed from the hype and emotion of it all), and a great "psychologist" whatever that means. Always more over than his push. Also lives his gimmick outside of the ring. Given how associated Jake is with drugs and how associated Punk is with straight edge, that comment might seem comical to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted February 1, 2016 Report Share Posted February 1, 2016 Like everyone else he was targeted for political assassination and killed off by HHH at the exact moment when his popularity became a threat to the Game's never ending conquest for complete control and absolute supremacy over the contemporary wrestling landscape. Perhaps more hilariously so than anyone else in history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laz Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 I didn't care for Punk's work on the indies. I find his series with Joe to be among the most overrated matches ROH has ever done, don't care for much of his IWA MS work (beyond when he had a live mic), and feel like his pushes were never warranted by his ability. That said, his WWE work is among the best of anybody during his run. He has two matches I have no problem giving the full 5-star treatment (MitB 2011 vs. Cena and SummerSlam 2013 vs. Brock), his series with Morrison on ECW have that show some relevancy, and his feuds with Chris Jericho and Jeff Hardy were entertaining though not earth shattering. He also had a great match with Undertaker at WM29 that overcame poor booking and its foregone conclusion, doing it without gimmicks to disguise in-ring shortcomings (unlike HHH). Like others have said, the booking was obviously not in his favor for the majority of his run, and that he was able to get insanely over in spite of it is a testament to his ability. Was he on the level of Austin, Flair, Hogan, Rock, Cena? No. Was he given the booking and protection of them? Hellllllllll no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin Posted February 2, 2016 Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 Loss is spot on saying he was an overachiever. Considering back then no one ever expected him to sign, he had a heck of a run. He had some great matches, was involved in some quality angles, became a world champ, made the most out of whatever situation he was in and got over big time with the WWE fans in no time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted February 2, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2016 As an additional point, what's everybody's thoughts on the hype surrounding Punk during the run itself. All praise valid and justified or somewhat overblown? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaymeFuture Posted February 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2016 I want to thank everybody for the contributions, we got to read many of them on the show, which is now available at the following link: http://http://squaredcirclegazette.podbean.com/mf/play/w98psn/SCGRadio71-TheTrialOfCMPunk.mp3Join us for The Trial Of CM Punk! The debate is on, as the prosecution and defense discuss the charge of Fraud and Misrepresentation, in that Punk and his WWE career did not live up to hype that the internet fans and he himself showed upon him going in and throughout. Taking your witness statements, we debate his matches, promos, originality, attitude, drawing power, and overall influence on the business as we know it today. A tremendous debate and a big thank you to those who contributed, check it out and let us know what you think of the verdict! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.