Separate But Equal?: The ultimate goal of Feminism in wrestling

[Ryan Faulconer]

I swear that the first twenty or more free wrestling matches listed on a youtube search are all intergender matches. More often than not Beyond Wrestling seems to be the promotion. I think that kind of match works in lucha really well. Michinoku Pro and Osaka Pro and Battlarts also seemed to make it work without it being uncomfortable to watch. It sometimes worked in Chikara when Sara Del Rey would wrestle guys besides Chris Hero or Claudio...errr Cesaro. Daizee Haze wrestling men of any size doesn't really work that well...oustide of the lucha mini tecnicos. She wouldn't be very credible against the mini rudos either.

 

I'm really not sure about which audience the mostly American or Canadian promotions are aiming for with these matches. Are they trying to shoot for complete equality among wrestlers or is it something seedier and some kind of fetish. I think it is safe to say that everyone looking for wrestling matches on youtube stumble onto "other" types of wrestling as we scour the world for matches to watch online. These are matches inside of apartments or empty arenas. The "grapple fuck" style is pretty much literally the correct description instead of it being a euphemism whenever wrestlers like Timothy Thatcher and Drew Gulak are doing their thing in the wrestling ring.

[donsem43]

An article about joshi and it's mostly male fanbase.

[Matt D]

Dumping this here since I forgot to before.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2016/mar/24/bolivia-cholitas-female-wrestlers-cholitas-discrimination-stranglehold

[G. Badger]

I just read through the 'Horror stories in women's wrestling history' topic.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/33804-horror-stories-in-womens-wrestling-history/

 

I don't think we can truly discuss women having any sense of equality in pro wrestling until the behavior and mindsets discussed there are addressed. There is a culture of misogyny in pro wrestling that goes deeper than anything that is shown on TV or DVDs. Most fans are unaware but, I think deserve to know.

 

I think the questions we should ask now are- what can we as fans do about it? Is there anything we can do to bring a larger social awareness to the issue?

 

I think talking about this is is a step in the right direction but, is there more than can be done? Are there people or groups out there already?

 

Genuinely curious...

[Matt D]

There was an attempt to start a Moolahtruth hashtag back during her mention on Holy Foley but it didn't much traction and Sasha mentioned her in her "retirement" speech a few weeks later anyway.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think there could probably be a legitimate PhD thesis in trying to figure out what is and is not true about Moolah.

[G. Badger]

I guess the veracity of these horror stories can be easily disputed especially by the WWE. Still, I can't believe a more concerted effort hasn't been made to address the sexism in that company.

 

I say this considering the somewhat notable attention that they've receive regarding performance enhancement/wellness policy violations, in ring safety, and political aspirations.

 

I know dribs and drabs come out every couple of years and they put those fires out but, it would be nice if the issue could gain some steam at least concerning the WWE. I think it might end up shedding a light on another seedy part of wrestling that most fans don't know is hanging around.

 

Wishful thinking, I suppose...

[Grimmas]

I really think you could easily do a half women, half men promotion with a women's title, women's tag titles, men's title, and men's tag titles.

 

The talent is out there, I don't know why you would have to treat the women like a cruiserweight or tag division special attraction in 2016.

[bradhindsight]

I really think you could easily do a half women, half men promotion with a women's title, women's tag titles, men's title, and men's tag titles.

 

The talent is out there, I don't know why you would have to treat the women like a cruiserweight or tag division special attraction in 2016.

 

I saw you tweet this - asking why companies don't book them 50/50 essentially and it's an interesting thought. Do you mean the WWE, or everyone left outside of WWE at the moment?

 

ROH taped their second Women of Honor TV special tonight (my bet - not earth shattering - is that this airs one of the weeks after Final Battle, or maybe that weekend). This will be the second all WoH TV shown on national syndication this year. I feel like this is worth noting because this is ground breaking in a way. The WWE has never done something like this. You go back to G.L.O.W., right?

[Jimmy Redman]

TNA did an all Knockouts special.

[bradhindsight]

TNA did an all Knockouts special.

 

Good point.

 

Was that TV or one of their pre-taped PPVs?

[Grimmas]

 

I really think you could easily do a half women, half men promotion with a women's title, women's tag titles, men's title, and men's tag titles.

 

The talent is out there, I don't know why you would have to treat the women like a cruiserweight or tag division special attraction in 2016.

 

I saw you tweet this - asking why companies don't book them 50/50 essentially and it's an interesting thought. Do you mean the WWE, or everyone left outside of WWE at the moment?

 

ROH taped their second Women of Honor TV special tonight (my bet - not earth shattering - is that this airs one of the weeks after Final Battle, or maybe that weekend). This will be the second all WoH TV shown on national syndication this year. I feel like this is worth noting because this is ground breaking in a way. The WWE has never done something like this. You go back to G.L.O.W., right?

 

CZW does all women's shows sometimes too. FMW did some. Smash does it once a year.

 

It's fine, but those are specials. However, why not do it all the time. 50/50? You have 8 matches, 4 men and 4 women. The talent is there.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

I really think you could easily do a half women, half men promotion with a women's title, women's tag titles, men's title, and men's tag titles.

 

The talent is out there, I don't know why you would have to treat the women like a cruiserweight or tag division special attraction in 2016.

 

I saw you tweet this - asking why companies don't book them 50/50 essentially and it's an interesting thought. Do you mean the WWE, or everyone left outside of WWE at the moment?

 

ROH taped their second Women of Honor TV special tonight (my bet - not earth shattering - is that this airs one of the weeks after Final Battle, or maybe that weekend). This will be the second all WoH TV shown on national syndication this year. I feel like this is worth noting because this is ground breaking in a way. The WWE has never done something like this. You go back to G.L.O.W., right?

 

CZW does all women's shows sometimes too. FMW did some. Smash does it once a year.

 

It's fine, but those are specials. However, why not do it all the time. 50/50? You have 8 matches, 4 men and 4 women. The talent is there.

 

 

Just because there are currently enough women to put together a few matches on every show does not automatically make it a good idea for either business or the product.

[Grimmas]

 

 

 

I really think you could easily do a half women, half men promotion with a women's title, women's tag titles, men's title, and men's tag titles.

 

The talent is out there, I don't know why you would have to treat the women like a cruiserweight or tag division special attraction in 2016.

 

I saw you tweet this - asking why companies don't book them 50/50 essentially and it's an interesting thought. Do you mean the WWE, or everyone left outside of WWE at the moment?

 

ROH taped their second Women of Honor TV special tonight (my bet - not earth shattering - is that this airs one of the weeks after Final Battle, or maybe that weekend). This will be the second all WoH TV shown on national syndication this year. I feel like this is worth noting because this is ground breaking in a way. The WWE has never done something like this. You go back to G.L.O.W., right?

 

CZW does all women's shows sometimes too. FMW did some. Smash does it once a year.

 

It's fine, but those are specials. However, why not do it all the time. 50/50? You have 8 matches, 4 men and 4 women. The talent is there.

 

 

Just because there are currently enough women to put together a few matches on every show does not automatically make it a good idea for either business or the product.

 

I'm not saying because there are the wrestlers, I'm saying because there is the talent. Last year the best thing about NXT was the women. They could had easily been a half and half promotion.

[WingedEagle]

There are not nearly enough women to feature them in that fashion, and probably not enough talent to carry programs outside of matches. A couple of the women can handle themselves on the mic, and a couple really excel in that position, while others have no business cutting more than a 30-60 second scripted promo.

 

You do that regularly and you'll burn through every single matchup even quicker than they do with the men, when are literally dozens more on each roster. Doing that would expose them and the division ridiculously quickly and burn it out well before there's enough talent to restock it. What's so horrible about building 1-2 programs at a time with a goal of hopefully developing a couple of them as legit stars who from time to time can anchor a show? Force feeding it because WOMEN~!~! is a surefire way to make sure nothing gets over. The same would hold true for cruiserweights, tags and much of the roster -- as has been the case for quite some time.

[Grimmas]

There are not nearly enough women to feature them in that fashion, and probably not enough talent to carry programs outside of matches. A couple of the women can handle themselves on the mic, and a couple really excel in that position, while others have no business cutting more than a 30-60 second scripted promo.

 

You do that regularly and you'll burn through every single matchup even quicker than they do with the men, when are literally dozens more on each roster. Doing that would expose them and the division ridiculously quickly and burn it out well before there's enough talent to restock it. What's so horrible about building 1-2 programs at a time with a goal of hopefully developing a couple of them as legit stars who from time to time can anchor a show? Force feeding it because WOMEN~!~! is a surefire way to make sure nothing gets over. The same would hold true for cruiserweights, tags and much of the roster -- as has been the case for quite some time.

The problem is that is not there goal.

 

Are you saying with all the women the WWE has one of their shows couldn't be half women? 4 matches on the show, there isn't 8-12 women talented enough to carry that?

 

Charlotte, Becky, Bayley, Sasha, Alexa, Nikki, Asuka, Billie Kay, Ember Moon, and Nia Jax. done. Plus they have way more talent.

 

If you are joe indie Veda Scott is as good a talent as any undercard male.

 

Plus you do this, you get more future talent. The talent is out there though and it could be done. Instead the women are treated like a special attraction.

[WingedEagle]

 

There are not nearly enough women to feature them in that fashion, and probably not enough talent to carry programs outside of matches. A couple of the women can handle themselves on the mic, and a couple really excel in that position, while others have no business cutting more than a 30-60 second scripted promo.

 

You do that regularly and you'll burn through every single matchup even quicker than they do with the men, when are literally dozens more on each roster. Doing that would expose them and the division ridiculously quickly and burn it out well before there's enough talent to restock it. What's so horrible about building 1-2 programs at a time with a goal of hopefully developing a couple of them as legit stars who from time to time can anchor a show? Force feeding it because WOMEN~!~! is a surefire way to make sure nothing gets over. The same would hold true for cruiserweights, tags and much of the roster -- as has been the case for quite some time.

The problem is that is not there goal.

 

Are you saying with all the women the WWE has one of their shows couldn't be half women? 4 matches on the show, there isn't 8-12 women talented enough to carry that?

 

Charlotte, Becky, Bayley, Sasha, Alexa, Nikki, Asuka, Billie Kay, Ember Moon, and Nia Jax. done. Plus they have way more talent.

 

If you are joe indie Veda Scott is as good a talent as any undercard male.

 

Plus you do this, you get more future talent. The talent is out there though and it could be done. Instead the women are treated like a special attraction.

 

 

If you want to undo the brand split and get into fantasy booking, we can take this a lot of places. I'm just not big on what-ifs. As the rosters are currently constructed I don't think there's any good way to feature a 50/50 gender split on the show and believe it would be to the detriment of all involved.

 

If the women are treated, booked and eventually viewed as a truly special attraction I think that'd be great. They might get over and be a real draw. Shouldn't that be the goal for them and all talent? What you're proposing is to create as a level a playing field as possible, which is quite ironically the biggest complaint people have had about booking in recent years. Not sure why it'd be a good idea with the women when its been perhaps the biggest flaw on the men's side.

[Grimmas]

Are you saying there isn't enough talent out there to split the show in half or that it shouldn't be a goal and women should just be treated like tag teams?

[WingedEagle]

Are you saying there isn't enough talent out there to split the show in half or that it shouldn't be a goal and women should just be treated like tag teams?

 

There isn't enough to talent to split the show in half without burning through the roster depth and matchups, and it shouldn't be a goal. No clue at all where the reference to tag teams comes from.

 

The goal should be to produce stars who can fill the show with quality matches and segments that compel an audience to buy tickets, watch the programming and subscribe to the Network, not to find a satisfactory ratio of men to women, singles to tags, cruiserweights to heavyweights or midgets to animals. I believe that is best accomplished by choosing to highlight and push a couple key acts above the rest of the roster and would be hampered by any attempt to throw a women's division out there as though it is completely the same as what's been on television for decades.

 

Which gets to another part of the idea that boggles my mind. Wrestling has a number of inherent advantages over sports because it is predetermined and can thus choose who's dominant and stands out, as well as hopefully make sure that those individuals are the ones with elite charisma and personalities that draw an audience. But a large part of it is very similar to sports -- its a physically demanding endeavor that demands a certain degree of athleticism.

 

I don't think its controversial to suggest that to the average viewer male wrestlers are more physically impressive than the women. On average they're bigger, stronger and faster. Not in all cases, but it doesn't seem a stretch to presume that the average viewer thinks Braun Strowman or Sheamus look more physically impressive and dominating than Charlotte or Nia Jax or Sasha Banks. You put the women out there in the same company, on the same show, and under the same banner with the exact same presentation as the men and they're working with a handicap.

 

Ronda Rousey isn't one of the 2 biggest UFC draws of the last few years just because she's blonde, but because she dominated people in impressive fashion time in and time out and how she carried herself in doing so. UFC has for the most part gone out of their way to feature women up and down the card, and they've got a lot more women to use. How many of them matter, and if they do, why do the matter? The answer is not because they're slotted on a random PPV or fight night. Its not WWE or UFC's job to provide equal employment opportunities to women on camera. Their goal should be putting together shows that people can't miss, and I don't see any reason to believe that simply throwing women out there the same way they do men makes that more likely.

 

If anything, I think they have more of an opportunity to make a woman or 3 into legit stars primarily because the women's roster is so much smaller and limits their ability to bounce from push to push to push, and move the title from champ to champ to champ. One can debate whether or not that is forced upon them or not because of the size of the division, but its still an opportunity that's there and an advantage that isn't present on the men's side. Filling up the roster with girls and treating them exactly the same eliminates that.

 

Maybe I'm crazy. I don't care if there is 1 woman or 12 on Raw tonight. I want good matches and promos that entertain me and build big shows I can look forward to. No bonus points on my end whether they pull that off with men or women. I just don't think its happening by booking the women like the men, especially given the glaring lack of depth.

[Grimmas]

 

Maybe I'm crazy. I don't care if there is 1 woman or 12 on Raw tonight. I want good matches and promos that entertain me and build big shows I can look forward to. No bonus points on my end whether they pull that off with men or women. I just don't think its happening by booking the women like the men, especially given the glaring lack of depth.

 

Of course we all want it entertaining. I just don't think the difference between something like Kane-Wyatt and Billie Kay-Emma is big.

 

I think a company should strive to represent reality. Having more females can only help the company not look like just for men to watch.

 

Also, saying women aren't as good as wrestlers is silly when we saw Joshi in the 80s/90s, we saw NXT last year.

[WingedEagle]

 

 

Maybe I'm crazy. I don't care if there is 1 woman or 12 on Raw tonight. I want good matches and promos that entertain me and build big shows I can look forward to. No bonus points on my end whether they pull that off with men or women. I just don't think its happening by booking the women like the men, especially given the glaring lack of depth.

 

Of course we all want it entertaining. I just don't think the difference between something like Kane-Wyatt and Billie Kay-Emma is big.

 

I think a company should strive to represent reality. Having more females can only help the company not look like just for men to watch.

 

Also, saying women aren't as good as wrestlers is silly when we saw Joshi in the 80s/90s, we saw NXT last year.

 

 

Agree with you about more females. But disagree if you think they have enough right now. When there are enough to stack cards like 80s AJW across 3 brands your point will be dead on. I don't think we're there.

 

NXT last year, and this year, is a 1 hour TV show with with sporadic big shows. How does making that work that translate to 6 hours of weekly TV across all 3 brands plus all the PPVs/Takeovers?

[Grimmas]

There is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much talent out there. It would be damn easy to raid the indies and Japan and be half and half within a year or so, after building them up through the system.

 

2 matches seem to be the goal though, so it won't happen.

[Jimmy Redman]

 

TNA did an all Knockouts special.

 

Good point.

 

Was that TV or one of their pre-taped PPVs?

 

 

Both.

 

Back in...I want to say 2010, they did an all-Knockouts episode of Impact. From memory they ran a title tournament on that show.

 

When they began making those One Night Only PPVs, they made all Knockouts PPVs as well.

[El-P]

WWE. Diva Revolution. Tribute video to woman murderer Jimmy Snuka. #childhoodheroes>>>womanabuse

[G. Badger]

This is a good point...WWE is 'wrestling' to most people in the world and surely the U.S. They have the money, the audience, and thus the power to shift the culture of wrestling...even if it is only behind the scenes. This doesn't make money and it puts their neck on the line so, they are not interested however. Again to the topic title...there is no chance of a feminist movement in wrestling until they are willing to or are forced to change. They, the WWE set the standard. All others follow suit...