Gymnastics in pro wrestling/the Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama

[GOTNW]

If you pay attention to wrestling twitter you've already seem all the discussion about this, if not well Ricochet and Ospreay had a match Ricochet and Ospreay would have and for some reason a GIF of their sequence blew up and we're having that discussion all over again. And Vider chimmed in by shitting on all modern wrestling (including a Twin Towers match llma) after watching the GIF and coming to the conclusion you can't have storytelling in wrestling if you do gymnastics sequences.

 

Quick comments:

-I haven't seen the Ospreay-Ricochet match yet. I have no issue with someone disliking the values they use to achieve something. I don't think using the values they do is inherently bad. I think spotfests and flip matches can be great depending on how good wrestlers are at other, more important things. I don't think there's anything wrong with the GIF in question.

-Vader is full of shit basically

-No style is more or less valid because of how much you like it, how popular it is/was or how much money it did/didn't make

 

Have at it.

 

[Mad Dog]

I personally found their match to be completely obnoxious by the end of it. You don't have to fucking throw a flip in for very move you use (looking at you Ospreay). But I really don't care, there is so much variety out there currently you can just avoid styles you don't like and wrestlers you don't like. But old wrestlers shitting on new wrestlers is just par for the course with sports. You see the same sentiment in baseball, football and basketball all the time and how these kids today don't play the game right and blah blah blah.

[JaymeFuture]

Part and parcel of wrestling's constant evolution. I'm sure Vader himself got plenty of that when he decided he was going to debut the moonsault - a guy that size doing that move flies in the face of what many think a guy like Vader should be.

 

As for the match in question, incredible athletics, but I hate the style. The hitting the ropes and double handspring backflip staredown spot made me cringe. Will taking a DVD on the apron and coming right back for the next move is hideous. They could do half as much, sell it better and it'd be a better match. But the live crowd loved it and plenty of people are praising it as something special, so it worked to them. But emotionally its a throwway, and will be forgotten as the next athletic spectacle with little to no drama comes along.

[Timbo Slice]

The issue for me has always been that they choose when to sell in a way that makes whatever athletic feat they do mean very little in the end. Vader's point is definitely a bit "Old man not a fan of the modern style" type, but the essence of what he's saying rings true, even if he didn't exactly say it the right way.

 

I know people are going off crowd reaction as a reason as to why the style works, but we also have to remember that AJPW decided the headdrop stuff was getting over with the crowd and that took them down a path they couldn't come back from, really. That's great that it pops the crowd, but you're speeding things up to a point that nothing else matters unless it's over the top like that. There's a middle ground here, they just need to find it.

[fakeplastictrees]

I only saw half of this title, the "Gymnastics in pro wrestling" part, and assumed it was about the BoSJ match as this has been a conversation I've had with various people all weekend.

 

At the end of the day, any good story is about urgency and purpose. The Rebels MUST destroy The Death Star, Frodo MUST destroy the ring, Ponce De Leon MUST find The Foundation of Youth. Any story that resonances with people have characters that CARE about their mission and wants to see it accomplished. Some may compare this match to a fight scene in an Avengers movie or a Jackie Chan movie, but I feel that is unfair. A pro wrestling match isn't a scene-- it is the movie, it is a full episode of a TV, etc. I hate to sound like an old man here, but if I was 12 years old and I saw this match I would think it was the best thing ever. I enjoy a lot of Lucha because I realize 'being cute' and doing 'cute' things is part of the tradition and style. I take Lucha for what it is as the universe's rules have been established within Lucha for decades. Watching Lucha and being upset due to the lack of Strong-Style is like going to Taco Bell and being upset that can't order a Chicago Deep Dish style pizza. I get it. But what is Will and Ricochet's excuse?

 

I know their style and I know what people expect, but both guys wanted to go out and do a ton of cool shit, not sell, and at times have no real urgency. I watched the match and at no-point-in-time did I think either of them really wanted to win. It was a show case for both. And that's fine if you are in an exhibition match with no real stakes and both of you guys are trying to make a name for yourselves. But when its the two hottest SJs in the world going at it, there should be something to prove especially since its in a tournament. Its like they took the cliff notes of what people would gif/talk about anyways and just said 'Fuck it! Let's JUST DO THAT!' and that is exactly what we got. The pro wrestling equivalent to a Michael Bay Transformers movie and just like a Michael Bay movie this match is praised for the cool story and the awesome gifs that have been produced and at the same time panned for producing these gifs and nothing more.

 

All styles are welcome in pro wrestling. I want a variety. I don't mind guys flipping around and doing cool shit, but when it becomes a self-conscious highlight reel- that's when it becomes a problem. All of a sudden Frodo wants to wear dark shades and ride a motorcycle up Mount Doom, Luke Skywalker (despite the seriousness of his mission) wants to get a custom Valentino suit made and stares into the mirror working on his catchphrase for the final shot, and PDL decides to sell the film rights to his story without even fucking finishing the voyage over The Atlantic. The spirit of the match was good, but fucking Peanut Butter Christ! Put some STORY into it and make the cool looking shit you do MEAN SOMETHING by selling it.

[Fando]

It's funny how people on twitter were also retweeting gifs of Roman-AJ and how that was what movie studios pay to have done in CGI.

 

Thought it was a super fun match. For me, what hurt it was the loud spot-calling and Ospreay's facials are really goofy. I understand why people don't like it, but surprised it's getting that much negative criticism, maybe as a backlash because many people actually liked it? Crowd dug it and everything Richochet and the Bucks etc have been doing on undercards doesn't seem to have killed the believability of other matches on the shows.

 

When Vader says he's seen enough of that bullshit he's referring to what exactly? the old float over, kip up, handstand, face off that Jrs were doing 20 years ago or what? Would Bix be retweeting Nash if he said the same thing? Have seen much worse in the last year, even with a supposedly "good story."

 

Would rather watch a super tight, well-timed and choreographed, mostly safe-looking, Jackie Chan stuntshow than a badly-timed choreographed women's NXT match, which I've seen people far more forgiving of and actually praising.

[clintthecrippler]

I sat down and watch the match yesterday.

 

I was okay with the super-acrobatic sequence that seems to be the most common GIF getting passed around. It was a match-opening feeling-out-the-opponent sequence early on, and really is just a souped-up version of the '90s NJPW Juniors opening sequence of dueling armdrags, dueling dropkicks, and stand off. Yes, it's super-choreographed, but is it really that much more egregious than when superheavyweight matches start off with dueling shoulderblock spots to show how equally strong the competitors are?

 

I do think some of the later overly-plotted flip sequences in the second half of the match were a little distracting, and I can't disagree with anyone that was turned off by the "Death Valley Driver into Reverse Frankensteiner" sequence - though I was more personally turned off by Ospreay selling a tornado DDT by doing a stumbling-but-still-on-my-feet sell outside the ring to set up a flip spot.

 

But as someone who actually watched the match, I can attest that they did tell a story throughout the match. It was being shown that Ospreay was just as athletic as Ricochet, but for the first three-quarters of the match, Ricochet was always just one step ahead thanks to his experience as someone who has succeeded as an established junior in NJPW. And it was only when Ospreay finally put together a furious flurry of "boom-boom-boom" moves that he was able to overcome Ricochet and win the match.

 

I'm still not fully on-board the Will Ospreay bandwagon yet. He is an amaizng athlete, but I have watched a few matches now and this was the first time I didn't walk away more impressed with his opponent (the other matches I watched so far were the ones against Marty Scurll from RPW High Stakes and Zack Sabre Jr from Evolve WM weekend). I think he showed more emotion here as the scrappy underdog to the more veteran/higher up the card Ricochet, which he should do that more often.

[PhilTLL]

Old wrestlers don't stop the work, they just work different audiences. This shouldn't be ruffling so many feathers, rather like a few months ago when Greg Valentine trashed the entirety of women's wrestling on Twitter.

[hammerva]

My only real criticism is of the opening flippy sprint spots is the point from Ricochet that they are trying to show this story of how they know each other so well and it is a constant game of can you top this. Well if that is the case then why are you doing the EXACT SAME sequence than the match you did from EVOLVE at Wrestlemania weekend. If you are going to say that a rivalry only exists in the promotion you are currently wrestling in fine but if it is an overall "wrestling business" kind of thing then your argument holds no water at all.

 

The most important thing is that as much as we thought being the "internet", the New Japan lost their fucking minds on it. I mean when have you heard a "This is Awesome" chant in Japan. Now if they do this more and more in Japan, the crowd is going to completely shit on it

[ragemaster]

If the guys did anything wrong, it was resting between spots, they should just have continued to throw in as many crazy ass spots as they could, and forgot about any attempt's at selling.

 

If you listen to the crowd, they only reacted to the spots and then sat on there hands until the next one.

It wasn't a match that engaged the crowd and got them caught up in the magic of the match or even any sense of real competition.

 

The crowd was only interested in the next crazy high spot and wasn't reacting to the match with any emotional investment.

 

I was sad when after every spot the crowd shut up and said what you going to show us next.

​

I guess at the end of the day if wrestling ever entered the Olympics, this would be the end result.

[hammerva]

I do have a problem with this argument that all of choreographed stuff is against the foundation of wrestling because it isn't a "fight that you are trying to win". First of all if that was the case an entire match would be nothing but submissions or moves into a pinfall. But with the exception of the flippy posing sequence in the beginning, most of these spots are done with the intention that this will hurt enough to get the win to the people watching.

[Fando]

If the guys did anything wrong, it was resting between spots, they should just have continued to throw in as many crazy ass spots as they could, and forgot about any attempt's at selling.

 

If you listen to the crowd, they only reacted to the spots and then sat on there hands until the next one.

It wasn't a match that engaged the crowd and got them caught up in the magic of the match or even any sense of real competition.

 

The crowd was only interested in the next crazy high spot and wasn't reacting to the match with any emotional investment.

 

I was sad when after every spot the crowd shut up and said what you going to show us next.

​

I guess at the end of the day if wrestling ever entered the Olympics, this would be the end result.

 

Now I'm wondering if I saw the same match as everyone else. I watched this twice now and hear:

 

crowd counting along with near falls.

crowd chanting and clapping for them to get back to their feet several times after kick outs.

Cheering ricochets comeback, then towards the end solid chants for Ospreay

 

I see:

entire rows full of people smiling, leaning forward in their seats with their mouths open (between big spots, not during), women holding their hands to their face looking concerned

 

And the crowd popping BIG for exactly those spots that were about the sense competition, the double head kicks, headbutts etc that punctuated the exchanges and were telling the story of the match.

 

not hearing any of this "shut up" silence during the match tho

[shoe]

Wrestling matches are worked for the time and place. Meltzer tweeted out that people complained about Steamboat and Flair did too much in 78. Those matches became timeless though. Time will tell on Richichet/Ospreay. My guess would be no. To me truly great wrestling stands the test of time.

[Mad Dog]

I would doubt anyone remembers that match 6 months from now. There's a lot of stuff from that mid 2000s timeframe that got huge hype that became virtually forgotten in a matter of months because it had no substance.

[ragemaster]

I'm not saying the crowd doesn't make noise, but its not heat in any real sense of the word.

After each big spot they are waiting to be wowed by the next big spot.

 

I have no issue with the spots, the "flippy posing sequence in the beginning" is just a updated sequence that been done for 20/30 years.

 

Not saying I didn't appreciate all the athleticism involved in the match, but the crowd wasn't involved in the match as a wrestling match.

 

They loved the high spots and that's all they were clapping for, or the stiff looking flying knee to head or brutal looking head kicks.

 

Not once were they invested in who would win the match, just what crazy thing they would see next.

[Fando]

I'm not saying the crowd doesn't make noise, but its not heat in any real sense of the word.

After each big spot they are waiting to be wowed by the next big spot.

 

I have no issue with the spots, the "flippy posing sequence in the beginning" is just a updated sequence that been done for 20/30 years.

 

Not saying I didn't appreciate all the athleticism involved in the match, but the crowd wasn't involved in the match as a wrestling match.

 

They loved the high spots and that's all they were clapping for, or the stiff looking flying knee to head or brutal looking head kicks.

 

Not once were they invested in who would win the match, just what crazy thing they would see next.

 

Guess we're working with completely different definitions of "heat" and "wrestling match" then if it's just a coincidence that a number of those spots ended on notes that were about them going neck and neck together and the crowd was only eating up because it was so stiff (when it wasn't actually "brutal" in any sense of the word).

[Fando]

I still have all Blitzkrieg's matches on my hardrive so I think this one will hold up just fine as a fun, tightly worked 15 minute match that's doesn't have the lagging set-up spots or stop-start taunting of the RVD-Lynn matches.

[ragemaster]

 

I'm not saying the crowd doesn't make noise, but its not heat in any real sense of the word.

After each big spot they are waiting to be wowed by the next big spot.

 

I have no issue with the spots, the "flippy posing sequence in the beginning" is just a updated sequence that been done for 20/30 years.

 

Not saying I didn't appreciate all the athleticism involved in the match, but the crowd wasn't involved in the match as a wrestling match.

 

They loved the high spots and that's all they were clapping for, or the stiff looking flying knee to head or brutal looking head kicks.

 

Not once were they invested in who would win the match, just what crazy thing they would see next.

 

Guess we're working with completely different definitions of "heat" and "wrestling match" then if it's just a coincidence that a number of those spots ended on notes that were about them going neck and neck together and the crowd was only eating up because it was so stiff (when it wasn't actually "brutal" in any sense of the word).

 

 

I'm just saying for me it came across as an exhibition of skills rather than a match, and the crowd backed this up.

 

If anything for the style they were trying to wrestle, if I was them. I give up on rest spots and the attempts of selling and just do spot after spot until the finish.

 

That's what the crowd wanted to see, so why not give it to them.

 

As for how brutal it was or not, with all the concussion knowledge we have now.

Some of those shots looked way too hard and dangerous.

[WingedEagle]

I thought it was a great match in this style with outstanding performances from two wrestlers who excel at that style.

 

If I had to watch a show full of that I'd probably kill myself, but there is absolutely a place for it in my wrestling viewing. If it doesn't work for others that's cool too. Hope they find enough to enjoy and can do so across as broad or narrow a scope as meets their tastes.

[Fando]

and the crowd backed this up.

 

 

Yeah, but they didn't.

[ragemaster]

 

and the crowd backed this up.

 

 

Yeah, but they didn't.

 

Yes I must be imagining the quietness between the spots.

Dude re watch the match, the proof doesn't lie.

[cowboy hats]

How could the gif at issue not be posted yet???

[Fando]

 

 

and the crowd backed this up.

 

 

Yeah, but they didn't.

 

Yes I must be imagining the quietness between the spots.

Dude re watch the match, the proof doesn't lie.

 

Unless you can point out where/when this happens in the match, you are. Cuz every time I watch it the crowd is reacting to the selling you say they should have given up on.

[Fando]

How could the gif at issue not be posted yet???

https://twitter.com/itsvadertime/status/736307748309073920

[The Russian Daydream]

Part and parcel of wrestling's constant evolution. I'm sure Vader himself got plenty of that when he decided he was going to debut the moonsault - a guy that size doing that move flies in the face of what many think a guy like Vader should be.

The difference, as I see it, is that, in the context of pro wrestling, I could believe that Vader back-flipping onto me would wind me sufficiently to pin me (and perhaps kill me).

 

The gif in question shows two guys having a gymnastic exhibition. It doesn't even pretend to be two guys trying to beat each other. That's not to say it isn't impressive to watch, it's just not what I look for in pro wrestling.

 

I would liken this style to turning on the TV to watch a serious hard-hitting drama only for the actors to talk as quickly as possible in tongue-twisters.