Gymnastics in pro wrestling/the Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama

[Boon]

Anything that means we get another Pete Dunne-Ospreay match is money, Pete Dunne is so good...

[Johnny Sorrow]

I'd imagine the bitching is from the OCD about wrestling weirdos going "Old guys must put over new guys! No matter what cause these are the rules !"

[goc]

I'd imagine the bitching is from the OCD about wrestling weirdos going "Old guys must put over new guys! No matter what cause these are the rules !"

But clearly that must ALWAYS be true! Even if it means I have to bitch about Hulk Hogan not wanting to put over Billy Kidman.

[NotJayTabb]

Anything that means we get another Pete Dunne-Ospreay match is money, Pete Dunne is so good...

Quoted for truth. Watching Pete's evolution the past few years has been great. He's always been a really good wrestler, but his change from mild-mannered Brummie blue-eye to meat-headed Bruiserweight brawler has really helped him stand out. There's a great photo from the RevPro show of Vader and Pete Dunne in the ring, Vader sat down catching his breath and Dunne right behind him looking hard as nails. Using the Vader match to build up a big Dunne/Ospreay match and put the heat onto the regularly-booked heel makes perfect sense to me.

[kjh]

Having been to Rev Pro's four York Hall shows before Vader vs. Ospreay and seen first hand Ospreay's popularity grow from strength to strength, I don't think people here grasp quite over he was. The homecoming hero reaction he got after winning the Best of the Super Juniors tournament ranks up there with one of the most genuine outpourings of emotion I've ever heard live. Although on a much smaller scale, it was Hogan-esque.

 

In that context, I definitely think the match finish has chipped away at many fans' good will towards the promotion that they allowed Britain's top star to lose relatively cleanly to an anachronism. It makes little logical sense to put over Vader when you're trying to tell the story that Vader was wrong about his criticisms of Ospreay's wrestling style and push that Ospreay is a revolutionary force in the profession. Given the fact that Vader is expensive to use and difficult to work with, it seems unlikely that he'll ever be back, so this won't lead to a rematch where Ospreay gets his hand raised.

 

Part of the problem is that Vader came into the match out of shape and very much looking his age. Despite all the smoke and mirrors that fact couldn't be completely hidden.

 

The issue with the Dunne vs. Ospreay rematch is that both men lost on the show, so you have two losers fighting over Ospreay's British Cruiserweight title. Plus the problem with the finish is that much of the heat ended up on the promotion (for booking Ospreay to lose) or Vader (for "refusing" to lose), rather than on Dunne costing Ospreay the match. Essentially it was a distraction finish in the end.

[Matt D]

A really good, taunting promo from Dunne could fix that.

[ButchReedMark]

I'm just amazed Vader turned up. I've heard he's a right bugger to deal with.

[Boon]

Having been to Rev Pro's four York Hall shows before Vader vs. Ospreay and seen first hand Ospreay's popularity grow from strength to strength, I don't think people here grasp quite over he was. The homecoming hero reaction he got after winning the Best of the Super Juniors tournament ranks up there with one of the most genuine outpourings of emotion I've ever heard live. Although on a much smaller scale, it was Hogan-esque.

 

In that context, I definitely think the match finish has chipped away at many fans' good will towards the promotion that they allowed Britain's top star to lose relatively cleanly to an anachronism. It makes little logical sense to put over Vader when you're trying to tell the story that Vader was wrong about his criticisms of Ospreay's wrestling style and push that Ospreay is a revolutionary force in the profession. Given the fact that Vader is expensive to use and difficult to work with, it seems unlikely that he'll ever be back, so this won't lead to a rematch where Ospreay gets his hand raised.

 

Part of the problem is that Vader came into the match out of shape and very much looking his age. Despite all the smoke and mirrors that fact couldn't be completely hidden.

 

The issue with the Dunne vs. Ospreay rematch is that both men lost on the show, so you have two losers fighting over Ospreay's British Cruiserweight title. Plus the problem with the finish is that much of the heat ended up on the promotion (for booking Ospreay to lose) or Vader (for "refusing" to lose), rather than on Dunne costing Ospreay the match. Essentially it was a distraction finish in the end.

Dunne did get his heat back by attacking Ricohet after the handshake. I definitely feel like Ospreay is wrapping up in the UK, and putting Pete Dunne over in the return match is the right thing to do.

[JerryvonKramer]

I don't want to live in a world in which Regal is defending that.

[NintendoLogic]

If it sets up a rematch, the result is fine. If it was just a one-off, then it's stupid. It seems increasingly apparent that the latter is the case.

[Matt D]

Come on.

 

It's basic hero's journey stuff. Osprey, the young protagonist, smug and full of hubris due to his age, skill, and the facile praise he received from blind adulators. crashed up against the end of the second act, flying too close to the sun. Now he has to reexamine his world view and broaden himself as a person in order to rise once more and face his true enemy, the nefarious Pete Dunne.

 

Obviously Vader is just Thunderlips in all of this. He's the storm that Osprey tried to conquer when he should have been focused on the affairs of (small, flippy) men.

[JerryvonKramer]

See also, Kenta Kobashi vs. Stan Hansen.

[El-P]

Who gives a fuck ? It's an indy match. Both got a payday. Osprey's profile only gets bigger because of the whole deal no matter what. Work, people, work.

[goc]

Come on.

 

It's basic hero's journey stuff. Osprey, the young protagonist, smug and full of hubris due to his age, skill, and the facile praise he received from blind adulators. crashed up against the end of the second act, flying too close to the sun. Now he has to reexamine his world view and broaden himself as a person in order to rise once more and face his true enemy, the nefarious Pete Dunne.

 

Obviously Vader is just Thunderlips in all of this. He's the storm that Osprey tried to conquer when he should have been focused on the affairs of (small, flippy) men.

But you're not factoring in that if you plugged this match into TEW then Ospreay's momentum AND overness would both go down after the loss. Made up TEW metrics trump any kind of story telling.

[TonyPulis'Cap]

Focusing more on the 'Gymnastics in pro wrestling' part of the thread rather than the 'Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama' part of it, although of course the two are linked, the whole debate popped into my head randomly when the wife was watching Strictly Come Dancing last week (for those in the US/rest of the world, that's the UK's version of Dancing with the Stars).

 

Bear with me here, but it was the first week of performing, so most of the 'celebrities' aren't at much of a standard and you find that they all use something in their first dance that is linked to whatever they are famous for. So this year, there is a young gymnast who competed at the Olympics a month or so ago. Playing to her strengths, and I guess what she enjoys, she threw in this perfect cartwheel and flip into the routine. Looked great, flawless and made the crowd go "oooooh!" But when it came to the scoring, the head judge, who is this old school guy called Len, was critical and said as a purist he wasn't really a fan of when dance routines have flips and gymnastics in them, as they, and I'm paraphrasing here, distract from the quality of the routine, and while they can be used occasionally, it's no good if the steps in between aren't there to connect the big lifts and 'wow moments'.

 

Now, I'm not an expert when it comes to ball room dancing, latin, waltzes, sambas etc, but his critique did make me think of the debate about flips in wrestling, and what people term spot monkeys who don't have the basics and transitions to connect the dots in between the high spots and reinforced how similar a lot of the debates that go on within different performance based sports/activities.

[goc]

Focusing more on the 'Gymnastics in pro wrestling' part of the thread rather than the 'Ricochet-Ospreay/Vader drama' part of it, although of course the two are linked, the whole debate popped into my head randomly when the wife was watching Strictly Come Dancing last week (for those in the US/rest of the world, that's the UK's version of Dancing with the Stars).

 

Bear with me here, but it was the first week of performing, so most of the 'celebrities' aren't at much of a standard and you find that they all use something in their first dance that is linked to whatever they are famous for. So this year, there is a young gymnast who competed at the Olympics a month or so ago. Playing to her strengths, and I guess what she enjoys, she threw in this perfect cartwheel and flip into the routine. Looked great, flawless and made the crowd go "oooooh!" But when it came to the scoring, the head judge, who is this old school guy called Len, was critical and said as a purist he wasn't really a fan of when dance routines have flips and gymnastics in them, as they, and I'm paraphrasing here, distract from the quality of the routine, and while they can be used occasionally, it's no good if the steps in between aren't there to connect the big lifts and 'wow moments'.

 

Now, I'm not an expert when it comes to ball room dancing, latin, waltzes, sambas etc, but his critique did make me think of the debate about flips in wrestling, and what people term spot monkeys who don't have the basics and transitions to connect the dots in between the high spots and reinforced how similar a lot of the debates that go on within different performance based sports/activities.

All I ask of flippy dudes is that they be as good as Matt Sydal. Great bumper, can sell his ass off, has good looking strikes and generally doesn't just do flippy shit for the sake of doing it.