Favourites that you soured on...

[Matt D]

That said, and this is a separate point, would you also broadly agree that we probably shouldn't criticise styles for not being like our favourite styles and that it's only fair to judge things within their own contexts? That's to say: while it's a fair point that four pillars weren't great at matwork or brawling (within what they did), it's not fair to downgrade them because they aren't style X which one might like better.

 

I'm not willing to go on this ride with you, at least not to the end. All wrestling can be looked at with a framework:

 

1. What are the tools used?

2. How are they used?

3. What is the effect/impact of their use?

 

If you look at things that way, you can judge across styles. Thumbtacks can be a tool. A long headlock sequence can be as well. (Maybe elements would be a better term)?

 

I agree with you in that you almost have to be subjective on the first question. Admit that you prefer one toolset over another. Try to understand and seperate out and organize the tools in the match you're watching regardless of whether it's a style you like. I think you can be far more objective in a comparative sense when it comes to the second and third questions.

[stro]

If you're gonna post gifs of Ultimo Dragon botches you can't leave this one out:

 

Lol.

 

[NintendoLogic]

I'd say that most of elliott's criticisms of Misawa and King's Road in general are reflections of the fact that it was the same handful of guys wrestling each other over and over again. There's not much you can do to make the tenth iteration of Misawa/Kawada interesting besides turn the volume up. The problem is that the Four Corners were too good for their own good. No style is sustainable in the long run without periodic injections of fresh blood. But King's Road wasn't a style that you could just plug anyone into, and the only wrestler All Japan developed in the 90s who could work at that level was Akiyama. It's no accident that most of the great All Japan matches between 1998 and the split involve Akiyama in some way. It's also no accident that All Japan was stagnant for most of 1997. All the big matchups had pretty much been beaten into the ground at that point, and Akiyama hadn't yet made the leap to top-tier status to freshen things up.

 

I would also dispute the notion that Taue was the smartest of the Corners. I suppose he was smart in that he recognized his physical limitations and knew how to work within them. But it's not like the other three did more than they were physically capable of.

[JerryvonKramer]

I still really want people who talk a lot about smart wrestling and minimalism to review something like Mr. Fuji vs Strongbow or even just Strongbow in general and explain why those his aren't some of the smartest wrestlers ever.

 

Not a troll I'd love to see Matt D and Elliott breaking down some of that stuff. Intellectually I think all the arguments are there waiting to he made, but for me it remains the basic proof that workrate really matters.

 

I'm interested in testing the limits of ideas to see where we might find some common ground.

[Ricky Jackson]

Only the Titans have the strength to survive those trials

[Microstatistics]

I'd say that most of elliott's criticisms of Misawa and King's Road in general are reflections of the fact that it was the same handful of guys wrestling each other over and over again. There's not much you can do to make the tenth iteration of Misawa/Kawada interesting besides turn the volume up. The problem is that the Four Corners were too good for their own good. No style is sustainable in the long run without periodic injections of fresh blood. But King's Road wasn't a style that you could just plug anyone into, and the only wrestler All Japan developed in the 90s who could work at that level was Akiyama. It's no accident that most of the great All Japan matches between 1998 and the split involve Akiyama in some way. It's also no accident that All Japan was stagnant for most of 1997. All the big matchups had pretty much been beaten into the ground at that point, and Akiyama hadn't yet made the leap to top-tier status to freshen things up.

 

Agree with this. My biggest criticism of 90's All Japan and what ended up being their biggest handicap was the lack of variety. Different combinations of matches between the same guys (barring some gajin) over and over can become tedious and since no one else was really able to work at their level, there was no significant change-up. They were kind of stuck and escalation was the way to go forward. The alternative was completely abandoning the style and starting over (sort of) but that's implausible.

[stro]

I don't want to say Taue is a smarter worker than Kawada, but over the years I've decided that Kawada is my least favorite member of the Four Corners, when I had him at the top when I first discovered AJPW in the late 90s. But least favorite of those 4 is like when I say Ric Flair was never the best guy in the Horsemen, and sometimes at the bottom of the 4 (specifically the Arn/Tully/Barry/Ric version). I can't even argue that Taue was better than Kawada, but I've certainly found myself enjoying Taue more than Kawada over the past few years.

[elliott]

There are a few things I agree with broadly. Thinking back on AJ Excite series, I definitely made the point that they were not good at matwork more than once, and as a result I think those guys are much better working 30 minutes than an hour. Most forty minute matches feel like they could lose ten or fifteen to be tighter.

 

 

I really wish it was something like 17-25 minutes tops where they chopped off large portions of the finishing stretches. That's where it starts to get ridiculous to me and I'm not opposed to long matches.

 

Also the point on brawling seems fair to me, and I do hate to bring up the spectre of BIGLAV, but you'll recall these guys scored poorly in the "A" rating because it seems to me that they only really worked one style well.

 

Its not just that they weren't really good at brawling though. Its that ever match had a segment where they'd go outside the ring and somebody would get irish whipped through the reporters into the guardrail and it always looked terrible. You'd get a big move out there sometimes like a powerbomb or something, but there was never really a memorable on the floor moment unless it was one of the apron to floor bombs they started to do later but they did that shit every match to fill time.

 

That said, and this is a separate point, would you also broadly agree that we probably shouldn't criticise styles for not being like our favourite styles and that it's only fair to judge things within their own contexts? That's to say: while it's a fair point that four pillars weren't great at matwork or brawling (within what they did), it's not fair to downgrade them because they aren't style X which one might like better.

 

Oh of course. And it probably gets lost in all of my word vomit, but I do say several times things along the lines of "A lot of this is preference sure and I wouldn't argue that Misawa was bad at what he was trying to do. He was great at it."

 

I way over corrected this line of thinking with my GWE voting and tended to punish my favorites because they were my favorites. I ranked Misawa 20th. In a world where Scott Steiner got a #1 vote, I'd be way more comfortable not voting for Misawa. I probably sill would, but he'd be really low because, allowing that he works a style that is not only my favorite but I don't think always (I'll come back to this) had the highest of high end matches. I think being great workers in other styles is more impressive and more difficult because they are either broader (Lucha) or more narrow (shoot style) than All Japan and are able to accomplish as great if not greater heights than All Japan without having as many things I don't like as the All Japan style.

 

However, I would like to point out again, there are Misawa matches I think are all time great matches. 6/3/94 and 1/20/97 being the obvious two but others like Misawa vs Taue, etc as well. In spite of whatever issues I have with the style, there are times where they are able to transcend those biases and they either help the match or I just don't care or notice or they don't happen. I'm not sure. So its not like I don't see the greatness. I just don't think the greatness is the greatest

 

So yes, I can't punish Misawa for working the All Japan style, but at the same time I can't pretend that I think All Japan is the best just because some people think it was.

[elliott]

I'd say that most of elliott's criticisms of Misawa and King's Road in general are reflections of the fact that it was the same handful of guys wrestling each other over and over again. There's not much you can do to make the tenth iteration of Misawa/Kawada interesting besides turn the volume up. The problem is that the Four Corners were too good for their own good. No style is sustainable in the long run without periodic injections of fresh blood. But King's Road wasn't a style that you could just plug anyone into, and the only wrestler All Japan developed in the 90s who could work at that level was Akiyama. It's no accident that most of the great All Japan matches between 1998 and the split involve Akiyama in some way. It's also no accident that All Japan was stagnant for most of 1997. All the big matchups had pretty much been beaten into the ground at that point, and Akiyama hadn't yet made the leap to top-tier status to freshen things up.

 

I can understand why you'd say this, but I've spoken at length on these boards about my thoughts of Hansen vs Kobashi being one of the all time great in ring feuds (somewhere in the Hansen thread in GWE). Those were literally the matches I urged Matt to watch to show Hansen as an all time great worker because they were different matches against the same opponent. Now, perhaps they had a built in advantage as Monster Heel vs Young Upstart and each year saw Kobashi grow up a little more and Hansen break down a little more before before finally Kobashi has passed him. Maybe that natural evolutionary progression aided them in ways Misawa/Kawada couldn't ever have as peers. Lawler and Dundee have feuded for 4 decades and still find ways to have compelling matches. They didn't generally approach every match from the same point of view. Compare 6/6/83 to 12/30/85.

 

Also, would you acknowledge that you're entire post could actually be seen as an indictment on the workers and style. That only 5 guys could work the style and not even they could ALWAYS have great matches? And considering how banged up the all got, that makes it even worse that they had to keep working each other over and over and couldn't figure out anything to do but "Turn this shit to 11" when it was time to have their next match together?

[elliott]

I still really want people who talk a lot about smart wrestling and minimalism to review something like Mr. Fuji vs Strongbow or even just Strongbow in general and explain why those his aren't some of the smartest wrestlers ever.

 

Not a troll I'd love to see Matt D and Elliott breaking down some of that stuff. Intellectually I think all the arguments are there waiting to he made, but for me it remains the basic proof that workrate really matters.

 

I'm interested in testing the limits of ideas to see where we might find some common ground.

 

Do you have a link for Fuji vs Strongbow? I poked around youtube briefly but it was late. I've seen you talk about it before but haven't watched it. Happy to do so.

[elliott]

 

I'd say that most of elliott's criticisms of Misawa and King's Road in general are reflections of the fact that it was the same handful of guys wrestling each other over and over again. There's not much you can do to make the tenth iteration of Misawa/Kawada interesting besides turn the volume up. The problem is that the Four Corners were too good for their own good. No style is sustainable in the long run without periodic injections of fresh blood. But King's Road wasn't a style that you could just plug anyone into, and the only wrestler All Japan developed in the 90s who could work at that level was Akiyama. It's no accident that most of the great All Japan matches between 1998 and the split involve Akiyama in some way. It's also no accident that All Japan was stagnant for most of 1997. All the big matchups had pretty much been beaten into the ground at that point, and Akiyama hadn't yet made the leap to top-tier status to freshen things up.

 

Agree with this. My biggest criticism of 90's All Japan and what ended up being their biggest handicap was the lack of variety. Different combinations of matches between the same guys (barring some gajin) over and over can become tedious and since no one else was really able to work at their level, there was no significant change-up. They were kind of stuck and escalation was the way to go forward. The alternative was completely abandoning the style and starting over (sort of) but that's implausible.

 

 

I get where you're coming from, but on the other hand, I just watched the entire PR set that had a shit ton of Abby vs Colon matches that I was fully expecting to be the same match over and over again. But each match was different and they didn't at all fall back on "Lets just do more stabbing in the face this time" when it came time for the next match.

 

I again point to Kobashi vs Hansen as an example of a series in All Japan that brought different ideas and structures. Again, maybe this has as much to do with the points they were at in their career and the sort of organic inevitable differences you're going to get. But doesn't that sort of reflect poorly on the pillars when the only ideas they (the pillars) have when wrestling their peers is "MORE BABY MORE!" as the years pass?

 

Doesn't it say as much about Misawa not being able to have have a compelling match with someone on the level of a Johnny Ace as much as it does about Ace?

 

Take Tamura for example. He had great matches with Volk Han, Tsuyoshi Kohsaka, Vader etc. You know, great workers. But he also figured out to how to have an awesome match against Gary Albright and compelling matches with weirdos like Tom Burton and Billy Scott who weren't on his level or the level of the other greats.

[Ricky Jackson]

 

I still really want people who talk a lot about smart wrestling and minimalism to review something like Mr. Fuji vs Strongbow or even just Strongbow in general and explain why those his aren't some of the smartest wrestlers ever.

 

Not a troll I'd love to see Matt D and Elliott breaking down some of that stuff. Intellectually I think all the arguments are there waiting to he made, but for me it remains the basic proof that workrate really matters.

 

I'm interested in testing the limits of ideas to see where we might find some common ground.

 

Do you have a link for Fuji vs Strongbow? I poked around youtube briefly but it was late. I've seen you talk about it before but haven't watched it. Happy to do so.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lrf8-b3KdGY&list=PLV6RCTo_Cd0BXlaewfw9iR2lIqGUQqfdl&index=1

 

It's the second to last match on this card, the first one ever televised from MSG

[NintendoLogic]

I can understand why you'd say this, but I've spoken at length on these boards about my thoughts of Hansen vs Kobashi being one of the all time great in ring feuds (somewhere in the Hansen thread in GWE). Those were literally the matches I urged Matt to watch to show Hansen as an all time great worker because they were different matches against the same opponent. Now, perhaps they had a built in advantage as Monster Heel vs Young Upstart and each year saw Kobashi grow up a little more and Hansen break down a little more before before finally Kobashi has passed him. Maybe that natural evolutionary progression aided them in ways Misawa/Kawada couldn't ever have as peers. Lawler and Dundee have feuded for 4 decades and still find ways to have compelling matches. They didn't generally approach every match from the same point of view. Compare 6/6/83 to 12/30/85.

 

Lawler and Dundee had gimmick matches and angles to spice things up. I'm sure it would have made things more interesting if Taue had thrown something in Misawa's eyes and partially blinded him shortly before a Triple Crown match with Kawada, but that's not how All Japan operated. The closest equivalent would be "so-and-so has an injured arm/leg/neck/whatever going in." It's no surprise that so many of the great All Japan matches are centered around body part work.

 

Also, would you acknowledge that you're entire post could actually be seen as an indictment on the workers and style. That only 5 guys could work the style and not even they could ALWAYS have great matches? And considering how banged up the all got, that makes it even worse that they had to keep working each other over and over and couldn't figure out anything to do but "Turn this shit to 11" when it was time to have their next match together?

 

Sure, that's a valid criticism. But nobody always had great matches, so that's kind of trivial. And I'm not inclined to penalize anyone for going all-out to give the paying fans their money's worth as opposed to doing as little as they thought they could get away with.

[elliott]

Lawler and Dundee had gimmick matches and angles to spice things up. I'm sure it would have made things more interesting if Taue had thrown something in Misawa's eyes and partially blinded him shortly before a Triple Crown match with Kawada, but that's not how All Japan operated. The closest equivalent would be "so-and-so has an injured arm/leg/neck/whatever going in." It's no surprise that so many of the great All Japan matches are centered around body part work.

 

Ok, what about Hansen vs Kobashi? Just a built in advantage due to where they were in their careers at the start of their rivalry?

 

 

And I'm not inclined to penalize anyone for going all-out to give the paying fans their money's worth as opposed to doing as little as they thought they could get away with.

 

This is such a ridiculous strawman argument considering I've written tens of thousands of words on this site about Kiyoshi Tamura who went all out in literally every match he ever worked and even the biggest Misawa fans (presumably) would admit that he slept walked his way through dozens of matches even in his prime.

 

You seem to think my problem with them is that they wrestled each other over and over again. It isn't. I walked through what I don't like about the style.

[elliott]

Also, would you acknowledge that you're entire post could actually be seen as an indictment on the workers and style. That only 5 guys could work the style and not even they could ALWAYS have great matches? And considering how banged up the all got, that makes it even worse that they had to keep working each other over and over and couldn't figure out anything to do but "Turn this shit to 11" when it was time to have their next match together?

 

Sure, that's a valid criticism. But nobody always had great matches, so that's kind of trivial.

 

Also wanted to address this because I forgot too.

 

I made my comment about not even thy could always have great matches in response to this post:

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/35792-favourites-that-you-soured-on/?p=5773321

 

Where you say things like:

"The problem is that the Four Corners were too good for their own good."

"But King's Road wasn't a style that you could just plug anyone into, and the only wrestler All Japan developed in the 90s who could work at that level was Akiyama."

 

If your style is so great that only five guys can work it, and you're the best and smartest wrestlers ever working at a level higher than anyone else in history and have years of experience wrestling each other, then you better have great matches every time you wrestle one of the other 4 dudes.

[NintendoLogic]

Ok, what about Hansen vs Kobashi? Just a built in advantage due to where they were in their careers at the start of their rivalry?

 

I do think that their relative positions played a big part of it. If you want to see how Hansen worked with a peer, look at his matches with Jumbo, almost all of which were disappointing.

 

This is such a ridiculous strawman argument considering I've written tens of thousands of words on this site about Kiyoshi Tamura who went all out in literally every match he ever worked and even the biggest Misawa fans (presumably) would admit that he slept walked his way through dozens of matches even in his prime.

 

It's a lot easier to go all-out every time out when you only work one match a month. Could Tamura have worked his style on an All Japan schedule without taking nights off or getting physically destroyed?

 

You seem to think my problem with them is that they wrestled each other over and over again. It isn't. I walked through what I don't like about the style.

 

I don't begrudge anyone for not liking the lack of matwork or bloody brawls in 90s All Japan. To that extent, it's just arguing over which flavor of ice cream is the best. What I'm arguing is that a lot of the issues with King's Road were exacerbated by the lack of variety in the main event scene, both in terms of the talent involved and the lack of gimmicks/angles. Things would've been fresher for longer with more guys in the mix and/or less conservative booking.

[elliott]

 

Ok, what about Hansen vs Kobashi? Just a built in advantage due to where they were in their careers at the start of their rivalry?

 

I do think that their relative positions played a big part of it. If you want to see how Hansen worked with a peer, look at his matches with Jumbo, almost all of which were disappointing.

 

This is such a ridiculous strawman argument considering I've written tens of thousands of words on this site about Kiyoshi Tamura who went all out in literally every match he ever worked and even the biggest Misawa fans (presumably) would admit that he slept walked his way through dozens of matches even in his prime.

 

It's a lot easier to go all-out every time out when you only work one match a month. Could Tamura have worked his style on an All Japan schedule without taking nights off or getting physically destroyed?

 

You seem to think my problem with them is that they wrestled each other over and over again. It isn't. I walked through what I don't like about the style.

 

I don't begrudge anyone for not liking the lack of matwork or bloody brawls in 90s All Japan. To that extent, it's just arguing over which flavor of ice cream is the best. What I'm arguing is that a lot of the issues with King's Road were exacerbated by the lack of variety in the main event scene, both in terms of the talent involved and the lack of gimmicks/angles. Things would've been fresher for longer with more guys in the mix and/or less conservative booking.

 

 

THe Hansen vs Jumbo matches were disappointing, but you couldn't say the same for Hansen vs Colon, vs Baba, vs Tenryu, vs Funk etc so Hansen could definitely work with peers.

 

On the issue of Tamura working one night a month, and this is something I've been meaning to talk about but kinda keep forgetting. I think the idea that Tamura worked one night a month is misguided. Sure they only held shows once a month but he, and other shoot stylists, pretty clearly spend a shit ton of time in between shows training their asses off to perfect their technique. We don't see it so it doesn't count. But he put in the hours training and sparring. That's reflected in his work. You're not that great after like 12 matches. Tamura's 12th match isn't the same as Wrestler X's 12th match because Tamura's 12th match is 3 years into his career. So yeah, he works fewer matches per month than the All Japan guys. but its not like he's just resting in between shows. I think the bigger difference is he wasn't taking 15 suplexes in a match.

 

I agree with your final last point about the lack of variety and conservative booking on top. Freaking Baba man. All Japan vs UWFi should have happened obviously and would have been great financially and interesting artistically. Lord knows Tenryu should have come back before the split when everyone was working with everyone. Even something as small as Hayabusa & Shinzaki coming in for a run had a noticeable positive impact.

 

If I was Baba in 1996 I would have, worked with UWFi and made millions of dollars. Have Takada "injure" Misawa and give Misawa some real goddamn time off. Like a year. Have Takada defend the TC for a year beating everyone until Misawa finally comes back to save the day and maybe not be completely broken down. With the oodles of money I made along the way I'd:

Sign all of BattlArts

Sign all of M-Pro

Sign Regal & Finlay and push them as a top tag team while grooming Regal to be the top gaijin for the new era.

Convince Tenryu to come back for a run against the Pillars. I'd give him a TC run for good measure once Takada was done.

 

Its tough to figure out who is going to be the next generation of top natives because that generation was largely disappointing in general outside of Akiyama. But my hope would be that the UWFi influence and the Tenryu influence in the main event would change the path they were on so something like Misawa vs Kobashi 6/99 doesn't happen

 

Unfortunately Baba didn't want to work with anyone, and financially they were successful so I can't really fault him for that. So we should probably just blame him for all of this

[ohtani's jacket]

I don't think I've seen a Misawa vs. Ace singles bout, but I have a hard time believing it could be significantly worse than Tamura vs. Burton or Scott, especially since they're UWF-I bouts. And Misawa did have some acclaimed tag matches against Williams and Ace.

 

The All Japan style has its flaws for sure. I'm glad you pointed out the guard rail stuff. I hate that part of All Japan matches. I don't agree that the psychology is as simple as you made out. The psychology between Misawa and Kawada is as rich as any other match up in wrestling history. I don't go as ga ga for it as I once did just like I don't go ga ga for the psychology in Akira Hokuto matches anymore, but I can't think of any match ups that out and out surpass Misawa and Kawada in terms of psychology or narrative.

 

Regarding the mat work -- with the amateur backgrounds a lot of the guys had, I think they could have been better at matwork if it had been part of the house style, but it seems to have been a pretty deliberate and conscious choice not to make it part of the style. I liked Kawada's gritty submission work against Nakamura, which had shades of the Albright match.

 

I'm personally not a big fan of the inter promotional stuff in Japan. Was there any promotion that came out of inter promotional feuds stronger than when they began? Maybe New Japan a couple of times. They remind me of those summer crossovers they'd do in comic books when I was a kid. Sales would spike during the crossovers and afterward they'd drop as a large chunk of folks had no interest in the regular ongoing stories. Even if Baba had cashed in, the company still would have floundered post-event.

 

The biggest problem with All Japsn in the late 90s is that they had one new guy instead of four or five. One guy can't form the next generation. As for why they only had one guy, we can only speculate.

[stro]

Interpromotional hatred is one of the best things about puro, imo.

[JerryvonKramer]

The Hansen / Jumbo matches are only disappointing insomuch as they are matches in the 3.5 to 4 range rather than 5-star. For me at least the Hansen / Slaughter series was disappointing in that same way. It's not like they are bad matches, just not the all-time classics you might hope for.

 

Just think "disappointing" needs to be qualified slightly, it's not like those matches are the drizzling shits.

[elliott]

The Hansen / Jumbo matches are only disappointing insomuch as they are matches in the 3.5 to 4 range rather than 5-star. For me at least the Hansen / Slaughter series was disappointing in that same way. It's not like they are bad matches, just not the all-time classics you might hope for.

 

Just think "disappointing" needs to be qualified slightly, it's not like those matches are the drizzling shits.

 

Yeah, I would agree with this.

 

Also wanted to say I just watched Strongbow vs Fuji. I enjoyed watching it but I can't figure out if its because it was a good match or because I was laughing so hard that they built a match around a purple nurple. It looked like the blueprint of a good match but I did notice some really crappy looking strikes and Strongbow's selling wasn't very engaging and his comeback was quicker than you'd like but that may be due to my hysterical laughter. My body hurts from laughing. I'll rewatch it soon and will be less caught off guard by the titty twister offense. But I didn't want yall to think I didn't/wasn't/wouldn't watch the match. I did. Just now. In the last couple of hours I"ve watched Sasha Banks vs Charlotte Hell in a Cell and Strongbow vs Mr Fuji. Needless to say I enjoyed Banks vs Charlotte more. But Strongbow vs Fuji was like Spaceballs level hilarious and everyone should watch it. I'll watch it again in a few days and give it a real review.

[Loss]

Hansen-Jumbo is like Austin-Undertaker. The car can't have two drivers. That's I think why neither matchup ever met its potential.

[Tabe]

Baba talked to Takada about coming in. Unsure if before or after UWFI died. Takada wanted too much money.

[Rah]

Sami Callihan.

 

He's a talent that I'd go to bat for as one of the best of the "newer" generation. He knew how to be a comedy, shit-taking fatboy in HWA, when he slimmed down he knew exactly how to be a sniveling, little Tazmanian Devil and from 2008 onward looked like a BitW tier wrestler. He didn't blow much of anything out the water in NXT, and has looked very lacklustre in any of his indy matches since. Fair enough, I've not seen the two Evolve matches that are pimped in JVK's thread, but I can't imagine he's the Callihan of past; putting on classics with Finlay or Luke Harper and trying his damndest to produce a somewhat decent match out of AR Fox and Sabre.

[concrete1992]

Sami Callihan.

 

He's a talent that I'd go to bat for as one of the best of the "newer" generation. He knew how to be a comedy, shit-taking fatboy in HWA, when he slimmed down he knew exactly how to be a sniveling, little Tazmanian Devil and from 2008 onward looked like a BitW tier wrestler. He didn't blow much of anything out the water in NXT, and has looked very lacklustre in any of his indy matches since. Fair enough, I've not seen the two Evolve matches that are pimped in JVK's thread, but I can't imagine he's the Callihan of past; putting on classics with Finlay or Luke Harper and trying his damndest to produce a somewhat decent match out of AR Fox and Sabre.

I for one think this should be ban worthy.

 

Should be noted that Sami is probably the most giving ex-NXT indie wrestler out there. He also has put on bangers against Thatcher, Donny Dijak (true MOTYC), Zack Sabre Jr., and Matt Hardy. Heck, he got a good match out of Cody Rhodes. While I think he definitely is working a style where he ends up being the more dominant presence than say the Finlay matches, I think he has learned to fill that roll better than pre-NXT. Before it I would say Sami was easily more interesting working from beneath. Not sure about that anymore. He works a sprint probably better than anyone on earth and, though some will disagree, he has learned to lay out his longer matches out better.

 

Rah, I thought we were close. For shame.