Why does puro get so much love? Why does lucha get so dismissed?

[pol]

 

 

 

 

For me it means floaty dance wrestling in which nothing makes much sense and moves lack impact.

When's the last time you were in an actual real life fight or a combat competition.

 

 

Almost all real life fights or combat competitions are horribly boring. Not something to emulate for entertainment purposes.

I disagree, and judging by the fact UFC is worth more than the WWE and their public perceptions most people seem to as well.

 

Just to muddy the waters further, I wonder sometimes how much your distinct opinions about "realism" in wrestling have to do with when you were born relative to most of the rest of us. In that you've come into watching wrestling in a world where MMA is a much more fully developed sport. It takes up a cultural space. I've likened it to how learning more about science in the 20s-60s changed Science Fiction and what was accepted and not accepted as tropes. We've learned more about fighting and it seems to color your opinions more than it does a lot of us who have been watching since the 80s or early 90s.

 

 

I think you see it reflected in the reduction of wrestling's fanbase to a hardcore niche of nerds, and the reduction of the style to a single style that, to those fans, represents "pro wrestling" rather than "pro wrestling" being any and all attempts at fake fighting. I'm not sure it could have gone any other way; maybe the only way to attract a mainstream audience post-MMA is with a very clearly fantastical style that appeals due to its athleticism, drama etc. The shoot style promotions died, and NJPW's revival came under Tanahashi, not Shibata. I'm not entirely convinced that those incidents are more than circumstantial, but it's what happened.

[gordi]

1A - 2B

 

Check mate.

 

Lucha Underground won.

I though we were playing checkers, damnit.

[goc]

 

For me personally the argument that lucha feels more "foreign" couldn't be more wrong. It shares a lot of the same aspects of American wrestling that I like and are pretty much necessary for my enjoyment of wrestling:

 

1. A clearly differentiated line between the good guys and the bad guys

2. Matches with structures based around the bad guys getting heat and the good guys making comebacks

3. Bad guys who cheat and go out of their way to let you know they are, in fact, the bad guys

4. Loud, colorful characters (I'm not talking about just costumes here, guys like El Satanico and Mocho Cota bring a lot of personality to their matches)

5. Lots of selling

 

To me Japanese wrestling has always felt far more "foreign" from American wrestling than lucha because there is often not a clear divide between faces and heels, there isn't that structure of heat/comeback, there are a lot less colorful characters & personalities and the selling is far more subdued.

So you are a big fan of Dragon Gate then? Numbers 1-4 are unequivocally prominent in Dragon Gate even among smart fans in as much that the most notorious English speaking Dragon Gate fan in Jae doesn't legitimately like the lead hero currently in Shingo.

 

I see you ignored #5. No, I don't care for Dragon Gate.

[InYourCase]

 

For me it means floaty dance wrestling in which nothing makes much sense and moves lack impact.

Aren't you the person who just marked out over a Dragon Gate match?

 

 

This coming from someone that has obviously never watched Dragon Gate.

[delacroix]

Faced with a "This is gonna take some effort to get into" type situation, there are three basic paths that can be taken, I think:

 

1) Make the effort. Might be rewarded, might not. Say it is rewarded. You then have the choice of either A - sharing what you found in a spirit of joy, or B - looking down your nose at people who haven't made the effort yet so that you can feel superior.

 

2) Put it on the back burner. Think, "I'll get to it when I have time, later on." Sometimes: A - You follow through, sometimes... B - Hey, who has that much time?

 

3) Just go, "That stuff sucks," so that you don't have to feel bad for not getting it.

This is pretty close to spot-on, I think. Reading through the thread, I've noticed that pretty much everyone is starting from the same point- lucha libre is, for whatever reason, difficult to get into, because it's hard to 'get.' From there, broadly, there's two responses:

1.) those who react to this by believing that they are missing something, that it's their responsibility to try to understand and appreciate what's going on (whether they're actually going to follow through on this or not - see 2b above)

and

2.) those who dismiss it, with the implication (or outright claim) that the wrestling is faulty, that the style they don't understand/appreciate is doing it wrong.

 

Both are understandable reactions to something unfamiliar. The sjw tangent is off-topic, but I can see where it's coming from, because the second reaction, depending on how it's articulated, can easily come across as anti-intellectualism, since it suggests an unwillingness to engage with perspectives outside your own: 'SJWs are crybabies. If I don't see oppression, then it's not there' being the rough equivalent of 'Lucha makes no sense. If I don't see x, y, and z, then it sucks/is not real wrestling/etc.' This reaction is the prerogative of anyone, of course, but it's obviously problematic coming from those in privileged groups.

 

Anyway, back to lurking.

[gordi]

Thanks for chiming in, Delacroix! I generally feel like, "I can see why other people like it, but it isn't for me," tends to be the response of people who have genuinely put in at least a bit of effort, but didn't get into it anyway. I tend to find that response so much more legit than when people just dismiss something challenging that others have a passion for.

I think that, if I had time to devote to getting into lucha, I might very well find that it is "for me." I love that Cibernetico match that El Felino won, for example...

Maybe when my daughters have grown up...

[W2BTD]

Herodes, the most in-depth conversation you could hope to have on this is to look at styles and tastes.

 

I've noticed cross over points over the years. Not hard and fast rules but general trends:

 

Guys big on Crockett are likely also to be high on AJPW

Guys big on NJPW are likely also to be high on shoot style.

Guys big on Memphis are likely also to be high on Lucha.

 

Some guys like all six, some less.

 

But it's more to do with the style than anything else.

 

The Memphis/Lucha thing is interesting. I think it definitely correlates to some extent, but to me there are two distinct styles within lucha. High flying dive oriented lucha (which I enjoy casually and in small doses but can not ever get invested in hardcore) and brawl/mat based lucha. Maybe the latter should actually be split into a second and third style, but I associate them together for whatever reason. People who like Memphis do tend to really enjoy lucha brawls, which makes a ton of sense. I don't like Memphis and I can't really stand lucha brawls or mat based lucha at all.

[Fando]

My fav lucha matches always look like staged bar fights from 1980s action movies and I love it and the crowd interaction can be amazing to see. When you watch old women wipe blood off of wrestler's faces and see old dudes fanning them with their hats after they're down, that shit is magic. I think the bad crowd mics hurt sometimes on video/TV. It never seems loud enough. Some Japanese wrestling is sometimes closer to some American wrestling in terms of huge contact moves with thick dudes slugging it out. Like Football.

[soup23]

 

 

 

For me personally the argument that lucha feels more "foreign" couldn't be more wrong. It shares a lot of the same aspects of American wrestling that I like and are pretty much necessary for my enjoyment of wrestling:

 

1. A clearly differentiated line between the good guys and the bad guys

2. Matches with structures based around the bad guys getting heat and the good guys making comebacks

3. Bad guys who cheat and go out of their way to let you know they are, in fact, the bad guys

4. Loud, colorful characters (I'm not talking about just costumes here, guys like El Satanico and Mocho Cota bring a lot of personality to their matches)

5. Lots of selling

 

To me Japanese wrestling has always felt far more "foreign" from American wrestling than lucha because there is often not a clear divide between faces and heels, there isn't that structure of heat/comeback, there are a lot less colorful characters & personalities and the selling is far more subdued.

So you are a big fan of Dragon Gate then? Numbers 1-4 are unequivocally prominent in Dragon Gate even among smart fans in as much that the most notorious English speaking Dragon Gate fan in Jae doesn't legitimately like the lead hero currently in Shingo.

I see you ignored #5. No, I don't care for Dragon Gate.

I see you ignored #1-4 as being really close to Dragon Gate. I also would certainly put the selling in Dragon Gate up there with the spot fest oriented Lucha. Is selling so powerful that it trumps all of your other parameters.

[W2BTD]

I mean, Dragon Gate is rooted in lucha. It's a direct descendant of it.

[goc]

 

 

 

For me personally the argument that lucha feels more "foreign" couldn't be more wrong. It shares a lot of the same aspects of American wrestling that I like and are pretty much necessary for my enjoyment of wrestling:

 

1. A clearly differentiated line between the good guys and the bad guys

2. Matches with structures based around the bad guys getting heat and the good guys making comebacks

3. Bad guys who cheat and go out of their way to let you know they are, in fact, the bad guys

4. Loud, colorful characters (I'm not talking about just costumes here, guys like El Satanico and Mocho Cota bring a lot of personality to their matches)

5. Lots of selling

 

To me Japanese wrestling has always felt far more "foreign" from American wrestling than lucha because there is often not a clear divide between faces and heels, there isn't that structure of heat/comeback, there are a lot less colorful characters & personalities and the selling is far more subdued.

So you are a big fan of Dragon Gate then? Numbers 1-4 are unequivocally prominent in Dragon Gate even among smart fans in as much that the most notorious English speaking Dragon Gate fan in Jae doesn't legitimately like the lead hero currently in Shingo.

I see you ignored #5. No, I don't care for Dragon Gate.

I see you ignored #1-4 as being really close to Dragon Gate. I also would certainly put the selling in Dragon Gate up there with the spot fest oriented Lucha. Is selling so powerful that it trumps all of your other parameters.

 

It's pretty damn important considering that if a match doesn't have good selling then nothing that happens in it really matters. I'm not a lucha spotfest guy either, or an American spotfest guy for that matter. I like bloody brawling lucha matches or trios with a lot of hijinx and comedy like a good Brazos matches.

 

I'm very anti-spotfest wrestling as I think I've made clear in my complaints about the way current WWE main event style is evolving. I don't watch wrestling to just to see a bunch of "cool moves." None of it means anything to me if guys are just gonna quickly jump to the next "cool move" without selling anything.

[Matt D]

Meaning is derived from selling. It's what signifies consequence.

[W2BTD]

This is drifting off topic a bit, but good/bad selling is not consistent across all styles. What constitutes good selling, or even what is sold/not sold and to what extent, is context dependent to the style/universe.

[Matt D]

To an extent, but not all styles are necessary equal.

[W2BTD]

To an extent, but not all styles are necessary equal.

 

Of course not. This is where personal taste comes in. And that's where a lot of debates end.

[goc]

This is drifting off topic a bit, but good/bad selling is not consistent across all styles. What constitutes good selling, or even what is sold/not sold and to what extent, is context dependent to the style/universe.

I agree with this but just as some people don't like Memphis brawls because "they sell too much for simple punches" or whatever I don't like some of the Japanese wrestling I've seen because I think immediately popping back up to deliver a clothesline after being dumped on your head with a suplex is not selling enough.

[Matt D]

More generally, then, selling is a tool, like anything else. it's a primal tool. How it's used has an impact on the possibilities for storytelling within a match. That impact is not necessarily value-driven, but it's not just taste-driven too. Utilizing differing types or degrees or consistency of selling has consequences. And occasionally costs as well. It can hamper energy, etc.

 

You might not want a summer blockbuster where everyone's talking and developing plot and making use of character development when things should be getting blown up left and right. Same with a slasher film.

 

A summer blockbuster or slasher film is probably not winning the academy award though.

[W2BTD]

 

This is drifting off topic a bit, but good/bad selling is not consistent across all styles. What constitutes good selling, or even what is sold/not sold and to what extent, is context dependent to the style/universe.

I agree with this but just as some people don't like Memphis brawls because "they sell too much for simple punches" or whatever I don't like some of the Japanese wrestling I've seen because I think immediately popping back up to deliver a clothesline after being dumped on your head with a suplex is not selling enough.

 

 

Right. And we all have those personal lines that certain styles can cross. I can accept guys popping up from shit when I'm watching certain styles because it's an accepted facet of the psychology within those universes. I get why you can't.

 

Circling back, I understand where Parv is coming from when he calls lucha "floatie". A lot of moves/holds that are sold as impactful or dangerous in lucha fall flat for me and it's hard for me to get past how "soft" they look. I can suspend disbelief to an extent, but just like some people can't get into head drop pop ups, I struggle to get past wacky cooperative looking submissions that feel like they take forever to clamp on.

 

I can appreciate lucha to an extent, but I've never been able to totally buy into it or emotionally invest.

[Loss]

I suspect that a lot of this is not even about the wrestling, but instead about its fans, which is bothersome. Is it the actual wrestling style we don't like, or is it that fans of said style annoy us so we don't like it because it's an easy way to give them some sort of affront? I know that sounds ridiculous, but I do think that's at play here, and it's crazy to completely ignore it. Goc, for example, spends far more time talking about how people react to developments in wrestling than wrestling itself. I don't think he's alone in that, as I also hear lots of critiques about "New Japan fans" or "Dragon Gate fans" or "PWO types" or whatever other label someone wants to assign, and I think people often then extend that to the wrestling style. So how much of this is about taking the opposite position of those who we find the most annoying? It seems like we've come to a point where too much attention is given to the politics of fan tribalism and not enough to the actual wrestling itself.

[Tim Cooke]

I've been curious about this topic for a long time. Puro, by most fans, is considered the best wrestling. It's constantly praised above all other wrestling.

 

On the other hand, lucha is just ignored or mocked and gets praise only from really small circles.

 

GWE was a great example where puro dominated things and a luchador couldn't crack the top 10.

 

Does this come down to coverage from places like Dave or that lucha was developed differently, while puro was developed like American wrestling?

 

It's just very odd to me.

 

Getting back to the original question, Meltzer has never really liked lucha. He has periods where he is into it for one reason or another (1993-1995 AAA flying with Rey Jr revolutionizing what can aerobically be done), 2004-2005 CMLL for rise of Mistico/most heated wrestling during that time period) but he has never embraced it like he has with Japanese wrestling. One match made Jeff Bowdren's top 100 of the 1980's, which was a list based off of Meltzer tape trading with others through 1986-1987 before they had more sources. Granted, there has been more unearthed 80's lucha in the past 10 years than the prior 20, but it was only a Santo/Casas match that happened in LA that made the list. Meltzer was complimentary of it at the time but he also enjoyed talking about how it outdrew the NWA and WWF in LA as much as the actual match quality.

 

In the 1990 yearbook, he says that Casas is the only great wrestler he has seen from Mexico because even exciting guys like Atlantis have major style flaws. Just reading his 1990 guide to Lucha Libre shows you where his mind was regarding the style at that point in history. When AAA started falling apart in 1996, he didn't go over to CMLL, whose 1997 is full of great angles and matches. He comes back for the 3/17/00 PPV and that wins MOTY because of his influence. Disagree? How does Tamura/Kohsaka from 6/98 finish 2nd that year? People weren't just automatically getting RINGS shows every month in the late 90's.

 

He would go on to review the CMLL PPV's through March 2001 before just going back to live reports for match opinions (see Bob Barnett pimping Vampiro 2002 matches w Shocker vs. UG/Bucanero) and he doesn't give his own reviews of lucha TV again until late 2004.

 

People who value Dave's opinion never had any other incentive to go out of their way to see CMLL in the early 90's or AAA in 1999 or 2004 because he wasn't watching and/or promoting.

 

Prior to his newsletter going online in June 2008, subscribing to the WON was a very niche market. Certainly a profitable one, but as a subscriber were willing to put up with 9 pt font, some run on sentences, and no design what ever. His opinion carried a lot of weight pre-2008 and especially pre-2000.

[Cap]

I suspect that a lot of this is not even about the wrestling, but instead about its fans, which is bothersome. Is it the actual wrestling style we don't like, or is it that fans of said style annoy us so we don't like it because it's an easy way to give them some sort of affront? I know that sounds ridiculous, but I do think that's at play here, and it's crazy to completely ignore it. Goc, for example, spends far more time talking about how people react to developments in wrestling than wrestling itself. I don't think he's alone in that, as I also hear lots of critiques about "New Japan fans" or "Dragon Gate fans" or "PWO types" or whatever other label someone wants to assign, and I think people often then extend that to the wrestling style. So how much of this is about taking the opposite position of those who we find the most annoying? It seems like we've come to a point where too much attention is given to the politics of fan tribalism and not enough to the actual wrestling itself.

I think this is probably true, but how do we parse out why different styles/genres are more widely lauded without talking about fan reception and reaction? I agree that it is probably emphasized a bit more than it should be. The question seems to be about reception and reaction, about this "tribalism" at least as much and probably more than it is bout anything inherent in the wrestling itself. Ultimately, I am agreeing with you I just don't see how that is bothersome or problematic in the context of the thread. it seems quite appropriate here.

[Loss]

I think it's bothersome in the sense that if I love lucha and someone doesn't like me, and decides they will criticize lucha because they know it will get under my skin, as an example (that's not happening with me exactly that way, I'm just saying that as an example scenario), then it drags everything down and points become less earnest. And I do think there's at least some of that going on.

[Cap]

oh, ok... that makes sense.

[JerryvonKramer]

I think it's bothersome in the sense that if I love lucha and someone doesn't like me, and decides they will criticize lucha because they know it will get under my skin, as an example (that's not happening with me exactly that way, I'm just saying that as an example scenario), then it drags everything down and points become less earnest. And I do think there's at least some of that going on.

Now GWE is over I don't see any real stakes in why anyone would do this. And also I think people generally just keep themselves to themselves.

 

My sense both here and on Twitter is that there's a culture that has developed in which people aren't allowed to dislike anything.

 

We can't all like all of the things. People hate stuff I love and are vocal about it (especially 80s-early 90s WWF) and I'm cool with that. But for some reason people get more defensive if they see someone saying "Lucha sucks". Yet many of the same people routinely trash things they don't value. Dragon gate is a case in point. I gave one DG match a pretty positive review and it's brought up as a knock against me months later ...

 

That's what I see.

[goc]

As far as this whole "tribalism" argument goes, I did come into this thread to give Parv shit about posting "lucha sucks" because that's pointless. I mean I'm not going to go into topics about modern New Japan or EVOLVE and go "Eww why do you people watch this?" just to annoy people who like something that I don't really care for. Especially when this thread is specifically about "why do people not like lucha?" and "because it sucks" isn't even an attempt to answer that question.

 

But the rest of the stuff I said about why I personally find lucha more accessible than Japanese wrestling is 100% how I feel about the matter and I'm fairly certain I said these same things back during GWE when people were happily declaring they weren't voting for any lucha guys while looking down their nose at anyone not voting for a bunch of Japanese wrestlers.