WON HOF 2017

[soup23]

Are the bolded ones the ones you would vote for? If so, still a lot of cuts to be made to get to the maximum of 10 votes.

[NintendoLogic]

There's a lengthy discussions of this year's candidates in the latest Observer that ends with Dave providing his own ballot.

 

In the non-wrestler category I’ve got five votes, so I’m going with [Dave] Brown, Crockett Sr., Crockett Jr, Gary Hart and Jarrett. It’s not meant as a slight to anyone else.

 

For wrestlers, my first round of picks are Pedro Morales, Bearcat Wright, Edge, A.J. Styles, The Sharpe Brothers, Minoru Suzuki, Kiyoshi Tamura, Ultimo Guerrero, Karloff Lagarde, L.A. Park and Los Misioneros, which makes 11. The final cut is hard, but I guess it’s Tamura for this year.

[cheapshot]

EDGE.

 

I am at a loss.

[Sean Liska]

God bless Dave for going with Dave Brown and Jerry Jarretr.

[JKWebb]

Just for fun, if I had to pick 10 guys from this list...

 

Well, I'd write in Rick Martel if I could, but...

 

-Jimmy Hart

-CM Punk

-Sgt. Slaughter

-Jun Akiyama

-Akira Taue

-Don Owen

-Blue Panther

-Villano III

-AJ Styles

-Chavo Sr... probably ...

[sek69]

I'm not necessarily saying Edge is HOF caliber, but it seems like there's more of an argument to be made than people seem to realize. He was part of a tag team boom that revolutionized the TLC match (for all the bad and good that led to) and he was the only one who was able to get a 100% heel reaction facing off against Cena at the peak of the anti Cena sentiment.

 

I personally would have him at the level right below HOF, but I could see why someone would make the argument for him.

[joeg]

we only get 10?? oops

 

ok

 

1- Pedro Morales - duh

2- George Steele - faced Bruno, Pedro, Backlund, and Hogan at MSG

3- Sharpe Brothers - made Rikidozan

4- Los Misioneros de la Muerte - basically invented/popularized the current format of 2 out of 3 falls captain falls trios matches

5- Goldberg - biggest draw in wrestling for a short period of time

6- Sputnik Monroe- held the attendance record in Memphis for like 40 years, and is solely responsible for desegregating sporting events in the state of Tennessee

7- Tamura - i mean duh, the guy may be the GOAT, he headlined at the Tokyo Dome, Saitama Super Arena, and the Budokuon multiple times.

8- Big Daddy- yeah he sucked but he sold out Wembly multiple times

9- Akiyama- Sold out the Dome vs Kobashi when wrestling in Japan was all but dead

10- Kerry Von Erich - NWA champ, his 20 day reign were the last NWA title changes while there still was an NWA.

[JNLister]

Daddy sold out Wembley one time (actually a handful of seats short.) The other two shows did around 70 and 50 percent of capacity.

[cheapshot]

Daddy sold out Wembley one time (actually a handful of seats short.) The other two shows did around 70 and 50 percent of capacity.

 

 

Shhh, keep that quiet.

[NintendoLogic]

Since everyone else is doing it, here's my hypothetical ballot.

 

WRESTLERS: AJ Styles, Jun Akiyama, Sharpe Brothers, Akira Taue, Cien Caras, Blue Panther, Los Misioneros de la Muerte, Villano III, Dr. Wagner Jr., Johnny Saint

 

NON-WRESTLERS: Gary Hart, Jimmy Hart, Howard Finkel, Jerry Jarrett, Don Owen

 

I think the Crocketts are stronger candidates than Owen, but they're not about to drop off the ballot.

[joeg]

Daddy sold out Wembley one time (actually a handful of seats short.) The other two shows did around 70 and 50 percent of capacity.

 

 

Wow no way.... but everything I've ever read about the guy was how he was the biggest thing going in the UK for like 20 years and how much money he and Haystacks drew.... so that's all pro wrestling style exaggeration? I mean the stuff about his work sucking that is in Dynamite's book, that's true, but the stuff about him being a big deal, that's bullshit pretty much?

[cheapshot]

Not in the slightest. He was a big deal. He still is the most famous wrestler in the UK to this day.

[JNLister]

Couple of interesting clarifications in the latest issue of the Observer (which aren't on the ballot):

 

* The ballot always says you have to have something to offer in all three categories (work, drawing, historical importance) or be so outstanding in one or two that you deserve inclusion. The new issue says:

 

The idea is a candidate should have something in all three, but if you are top tier is any of the first two [work/draw], you should go in. If you are among the best in-ring performers of your era, you should be in, whether you were a big draw or not. If you were one of the best draws of your era, even if you weren’t good in the ring, you should be in. And some people for historical importance should be in.

 

 

* The new issue clarifies that even though candidates are divided up by region:

 

First off, even though wrestlers are listed in various places, they should be voted on for their entire career. Caristico’s WWE stay obviously does count and works against him, even though he’s in the Mexico category. Ricki Starr’s U.S. work counts, as does Rollerball Rocco’s Japan work, or Horst Hoffman’s U.S. and Japan work, or Otto Wanz’s U.S. and Japan work as well.

 

 

While that's great/sensible as far as whole career counting, the idea that part of your career counts against you raises a big problem with a system where some guys are considered before their career is over. I'm almost certain that had Caristico been on the ballot in 2010 he would have got in on drawing power alone, so it seems odd that you can reach hall of fame status and then lose it.

[cheapshot]

I expect Dave Brown to come a lot closer this year due to the passing of Lance Russell.

 

2013: 41 votes - 12% [MODERN US/CANADA]
2014: 43 votes - 13% [MODERN US/CANADA]
2015: 71 votes - 18% [MODERN US/CANADA]
2016: 64 votes - 18% [MODERN US/CANADA]

[Matt Farmer]

 

 

It surprises me that Don Owen is probably falling off the ballot completely. I get Portland was never the top territory, but it had several periods of being really hot and Owen was, next to Jerry Jarrett, the last of the territorial promoters to fold up the tent

It's disappointing how much the smaller territories get written off, by Dave especially, for not drawing huge crowds when they didn't have the population bases to do so anyway. Having a successful money making promotion for decades is impressive even if your biggest arena could only hold 3,000-4,000 instead of 10,000.

 

 

Memorial Coliseum held way more than 4,000. So did Key Arena.

 

Don promoted more than a dozen cards at the Memorial Coliseum, with varying success. A few did excellent business, some did just a few thousand. He also ran some cards at the Expo Center that held around 5,000 fans and sold it out a few times.

 

Not once did Don Owen promote a card at Key Arena (or Seattle Center Coliseum). Don did run shows at the much smaller Seattle Center Arena (5,000 seats) and when Dutch Savage was running Washington they did okay, but despite what Dutch would tell people they rarely sold it out and did not have a run of sellouts like he in told people.

 

Don was the ultra conservative promoter. That might be why he survived for more than 60 years in the business, and that would be Don's biggest achievement.

[Matt Farmer]

Can someone give me a good argument why Yoshiaki Fujiwara is being voted for?

[Matt D]

Can someone give me a good argument why Yoshiaki Fujiwara is being voted for?

There's discussion here: http://voicesofwrestling.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=1759&start=15 including from some of the posters of the board. I imagine you could engage them on the points they made there here.

[Matt Farmer]

Fujiwara was a career mid-carder and multiple failure as a promoter. So bad in fact he caused a mass exodus of talent. He shouldn't even be on the ballot.

[Matt D]

Fujiwara was a career mid-carder and multiple failure as a promoter. So bad in fact he caused a mass exodus of talent. He shouldn't even be on the ballot.

 

I wouldn't exactly call that "engaging with their arguments."

[NintendoLogic]

He's a work/influence candidate, at least to his advocates.

[Cox]

If I were to make a list of the worthiness of the candidates on this year's ballot (a list that I am not inclined to make), Fujiwara wouldn't rank anywhere near the bottom, and I'm not even somebody who is advocating he be elected.

[Grimmas]

 

There's a lengthy discussions of this year's candidates in the latest Observer that ends with Dave providing his own ballot.

 

In the non-wrestler category I’ve got five votes, so I’m going with [Dave] Brown, Crockett Sr., Crockett Jr, Gary Hart and Jarrett. It’s not meant as a slight to anyone else.

 

For wrestlers, my first round of picks are Pedro Morales, Bearcat Wright, Edge, A.J. Styles, The Sharpe Brothers, Minoru Suzuki, Kiyoshi Tamura, Ultimo Guerrero, Karloff Lagarde, L.A. Park and Los Misioneros, which makes 11. The final cut is hard, but I guess it’s Tamura for this year.

 

Anyone who doesn't vote for Jimmy Hart boggles my mind.

[Matt Farmer]

Maybe Fujiwara should be included in the non-wrestler category.

 

As a "worker" he wasn't even close to being a hall of famer. I don't see where he was even all that influential, there were others that were far more influential than Fujiwara. His biggest influence was when he motivated an entire roster of wrestlers to leave his promotion to start their own company because they were tired of how he was operating his business.

 

He is definitely on the bottom list of the list. In truth he shouldn't even be on the ballot. If you look at him during the peak of his career, he wouldn't even be in the top 20 in terms of relevance to the country. For a career mid-carder to be hall of fame worthy they would have to be a world class worker, or have an undeniable track record of being influential. Neither of those things Fujiwara could claim.

 

I liked him, and his "shoot aura" but I also liked Haku and his similar aura.

[PeteF3]

Maybe Fujiwara should be included in the non-wrestler category.

 

As a "worker" he wasn't even close to being a hall of famer.

 

Then there's a fundamental disagreement here, because his entire argument is predicated on quality of work. Even as someone who doesn't really like the first two UWFs I think he's far and away the best of the UWF workers working both in that promotion and out of it, and I'm not alone in that opinion. The GWE poll held on this board is hardly the last word on this or any other subject but Fujiwara finished about 30 spots ahead of Hiroshi Hase, who was elected to the HOF based almost entirely on ring work only. He finished 20 spots ahead of Volk Han who has a sizable pro-HOF contingent.

 

I'm agnostic on the Fujiwara-as-HOF case since I don't really much care to discuss shootstyle. But until Tamura hit his stride in the late '90s he was the best and most complete worker in that style and no one else (not Maeda, not Takada) is really even in his class.

 

(And the next great Haku singles match I see will be the first.)

[Matt Farmer]

Maybe I need to go back and watch a bunch of Fujiwara matches. I've seen hundreds of Fujiwara matches but he was never someone that made me take a second look at his work. His work always reminded me of mid-card NJPW level work, which is not bad at all.