Who is a better in ring performer?

[Loss]

Eddy's glaring weakness is Japan. His charisma seemed to vanish under the hood. However, he was probably better as Black Tiger than Benoit was as a luchador.

[Cap]

Misawa > Bret: I am relatively high on Bret Hart, especially for this board (I think). I have no problem with someone considering him the best wrestler of all time. He stood out as a singular talent during much of his time in the WWF. The devil was in the details with him. He mixed things up nicely, put his own twist on things. To me he blended the over the top style of WWE with his own brand of legitimacy and realness in a way that few of been able to come close to. His dance partners were sometimes great, but they were sometimes very much not. While Misawa worked with much better opponents, he also produced much higher quality matches. He was in many ways the glue that held one of the most lauded periods in wrestling together and it was mostly because he was able to tie massive swaths of time together with his selling, callbacks, and ring psychology. To me, Misawa's greatest strength was that he was crucial in helping those around him shine, particularly Kobashi. While the other pillars were obviously talented, I am not sure anyone feels as big without Misawa protecting his stoic champion persona and giving into his peers strategically. Misawa and Bret are both very technically good and that means something different to each man. It sort of comes down to output to me and sometimes that might not be "fair" but Misawa just found a way to produce more top end matches in my mind.

 

Styles > HBK: To me, this is the easiest choice probably. A couple years ago I went back through a lot of HBK's top, most hyped matches and to be honest, I was surprised by how much I enjoyed them and enjoyed his work. I always remembered him as being somewhat over the top (which didn't bother me nearly as much on my most recent watch) and contrived (which still bothered me a good deal. HBK was indy before indy was cool when it comes to setting up contrived spots and it takes me out of the flow of matches. Of course we all accept that to a degree and our degrees are all different, but for some reason it has always bothered me with HBK. HBK can produce excellence (v Taker HIAC for example), but he can also produce a sort of overly theatrical self indulgent mess that I sort actively loath (v HHH HIAC for example). I have always been a little up and down on Styles, but more up than down. He really carved out a sort of unique style early in his career. You can tell that he didn't grow up a fan, but takes his craft seriously. He doesn't feel indebted much. His execution is good. He is tough (he can hit and get hit) and he is athletic in all the ways HBK is but without the extra stuff that bugs me. Sometimes his moves can get redundant and he can get in a funk. there are times in TNA and even ROH where it feels like going through the motions to get to spots (I almost always hate the Pele Kick). Even still, styles is better at pulling out the best in his opponents. He raises the level of match at his own expense sometimes, where HBK can bring a match down to elevate himself.

 

Danielson > Benoit: I like Benoit's work. I always have. He brought an intensity and crispness that is hard to deny. Everything feels like a struggle. He adds urgency to a match even in the way he walks and moves. Urgency is probably the thing I look for most in my wrestling. Benoit was also really good at blending flying/high impact moves with grappling in a way that complimented both. He wasn't the first to do it and he wasn't the last, but he was really really good at it. He was also the picture of consistency, but so is Danielson. I would venture to say that Danielson is a touch more varied, but he is also a bit more creative and willing to step out on a limb and do something new. Some of that was a product of where they were and the constraints of context, but it makes that a bit of wash. Where Danielson excels is how he puts matches together and how good he is at the details. Danielson can play a crowd, build them into a frenzy. He can get a room full of people who adore him to boo him. is believable against anyone regardless of their size and he is more varied in the way he makes that happen to me. Benoit would intense his way into believability (and it worked), but Danielson thinks is way into it. I would take the Morishima feud as a really good example of that. Those matches were quite different and added layer on layer to the story. Benoit was certainly capable of that, but to me Danielson is probably the best at it. While Benoit was well rounded, consistent, and extremely talented in the ring, a lot of his work can bleed together for me. I think Danielson is better at adding texture to his feuds and his runs, giving him a more dynamic career in my mind.

 

I would tend to agree that Eddie v Dragon is a better, tougher comparison, but I also tend to value peak a touch higher than most around here (again, I think). To me, no one could touch Eddie at his best. Comparing his peaks with Dragons peaks AND his consistency, would probably still come out ranking Dragon higher, but it would be closer for me.

[gordi]

I've only ever seen Benoit live in Calgary and Edmonton, so the idea that he doesn't connect with the crowd seems absolutely insane to me. He had near Bruno-in-MSG levels of connection with the crowds in Alberta.

[Matt D]

I've only ever seen Benoit live in Calgary and Edmonton, so the idea that he doesn't connect with the crowd seems absolutely insane to me. He had near Bruno-in-MSG levels of connection with the crowds in Alberta.

The crowd connects with him instead of he connecting with it?

[gordi]

Could be, actually... either way, it's an amazing thing to experience.

 

Interestingly (to me anyway) the closest I have experienced in a big venue here in Japan was Manabu Nakanishi in the Osaka Furitsutaiikukaikan a few years back. The crowd just lived and died with every move and gesture the big lug made in the ring. I saw Misawa in the Budokan twice, and I have to say that Nakanishi and the Furitsu crowd had an even more intense connection.

[Boss Rock]

The "Benoit never connected with the crowd" thing always confused me. I only really saw his WWE run but he was clearly a wrestler who fans were drawn to. I would argue Eddie had a bigger connection to the crowd, but Benoit was a very popular wrestler who could pull a crowd into what he was doing.

[Matt D]

Could be, actually... either way, it's an amazing thing to experience.

 

Interestingly (to me anyway) the closest I have experienced in a big venue here in Japan was Manabu Nakanishi in the Osaka Furitsutaiikukaikan a few years back. The crowd just lived and died with every move and gesture the big lug made in the ring. I saw Misawa in the Budokan twice, and I have to say that Nakanishi and the Furitsu crowd had an even more intense connection.

 

I'm trying to think what was comparable that I've experienced. I was at Royal Rumble 03, but to me (for Angle vs Benoit), that felt like the crowd forcing it, like the crowd wanting to have that connection so badly that they were almost able to will it into being. If you looked too closely, you saw the strings. Likewise Daniel Bryan at the Rumble in 2015 where it was a year too late and everyone wanted to recapture that moment while we could but we were sort of living in the memory of it. Likewise 1998 in Boston with the first Nitro after Flair returned. He was over but we couldn't have what they had a week before in Greenville. I missed out on Foley's first title win, which was on me. I've been to a bunch of indy shows (some major level like ROH, some local stuff like Chaotic or NECW, and some weird spot shows for certain names like seeing Eddy in 02 ten feet away from me work some schlubs), but nothing with that level of connection.

 

Taz in NYC at MSG in 2003 coming out to destroy John Cena when he was doing an anti-Yankees rant is probably one of the top three pops I've ever experienced which is funny to say. Certain the heat Reigns and Rock got after the 2015 Rumble. That was real and visceral even if it was sort of winking. The crowd was really into Monsoon threatening Heenan at the 1993 Survivor Series?

 

Sorry, that was a digression, but it made me think.

[Loss]

It took Benoit some time to get over in WWE. It also took Steve Austin some time to get over in WWE. Both became headliners and got over (obviously at different levels). I'm reminded of what DiBiase told Austin when he first started in the WWF. It will take you more time to get over, but you'll stay over once you're there. Same applies to Benoit.

[NintendoLogic]

I think the idea of Benoit as someone who didn't connect with crowds comes from the term having a different meaning at that time. He got good reactions from the fans in attendance, but he wasn't someone whose presence or absence had much of an impact on attendance, ratings, or PPV buys. Eric Bischoff had a term for guys who got pops that didn't translate to business: the Duggan effect. He would've been a better fit for the WWE Network era where no individual act is really capable of moving the needle much in either direction.

[Mad Dog]

Didn't Jericho and Benoit against Austin and HHH slow the bleeding of the post X-7 ratings decline?

[DR Ackermann]

I was 13 in 2001 and because of that feud Benoit became my favorite wrestler for the next few years. And then it was Eddie after that.

[yesdanielbryan]

Guys, do you like these comparisons in eventual new polls?

 

1)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Bret Hart

3)Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

4)Shawn Michaels vs Chris Benoit

5)Jun Akiyama vs Shinsuke Nakamura

6)AJ Styles vs Hiroshi Tanahashi

7)Samoa Joe vs Curt Hennig

8)Hiroshi Hase vs Kurt Angle

[Edwin]

Guys, do you like these comparisons in eventual new polls?

 

1)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Bret Hart

3)Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

4)Shawn Michaels vs Chris Benoit

5)Jun Akiyama vs Shinsuke Nakamura

6)AJ Styles vs Hiroshi Tanahashi

7)Samoa Joe vs Curt Hennig

8)Hiroshi Hase vs Kurt Angle

Kobashi -- to me, Danielson's peak was during his mid to late ROH run and my favorite Kobashi run was during his early to mid 2000's Noah run and in my opinion, Kobashi had the better run. I know others will say Danielson's best run is probably his WWE run, but I don't agree

 

Eddie -- I'm a big fan of Bret's, but Eddie had better matches against more diverse opponents in more diverse settings than Bret.

 

Kawada -- Charisma aside, Kawada to me was better overall than Misawa.

 

Benoit -- HBK had bigger and better opportunities, but on a constant basis, Benoit was far better imo.

 

Akiyama -- Nakamura has had some good to great runs, but I don't think he's had a run as good as Akiyama's 2000's run. Nakamura also coasts on matches whenever he wants to as he's doing currently in WWE.

 

Styles -- Not even comparable. Styles is just far better in every aspect.

 

Joe -- I'm sure this will be closer to other people, but in my opinion Joe's ROH world title run and his involvement in the ROH vs. CZW feud put him above Hennig for me and I'm a huge Hennig fan.

 

 

Hase vs. Angle -- This an interesting one and should be a lot closer than the rest and will pass on voting here as I'm not sure at the moment who I'd choose comfortably.

[yesdanielbryan]

 

Guys, do you like these comparisons in eventual new polls?

 

1)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Bret Hart

3)Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

4)Shawn Michaels vs Chris Benoit

5)Jun Akiyama vs Shinsuke Nakamura

6)AJ Styles vs Hiroshi Tanahashi

7)Samoa Joe vs Curt Hennig

8)Hiroshi Hase vs Kurt Angle

Kobashi -- to me, Danielson's peak was during his mid to late ROH run and my favorite Kobashi run was during his early to mid 2000's Noah run and in my opinion, Kobashi had the better run. I know others will say Danielson's best run is probably his WWE run, but I don't agree

 

Eddie -- I'm a big fan of Bret's, but Eddie had better matches against more diverse opponents in more diverse settings than Bret.

 

Kawada -- Charisma aside, Kawada to me was better overall than Misawa.

 

Benoit -- HBK had bigger and better opportunities, but on a constant basis, Benoit was far better imo.

 

Akiyama -- Nakamura has had some good to great runs, but I don't think he's had a run as good as Akiyama's 2000's run. Nakamura also coasts on matches whenever he wants to as he's doing currently in WWE.

 

Styles -- Not even comparable. Styles is just far better in every aspect.

 

Joe -- I'm sure this will be closer to other people, but in my opinion Joe's ROH world title run and his involvement in the ROH vs. CZW feud put him above Hennig for me and I'm a huge Hennig fan.

 

 

Hase vs. Angle -- This an interesting one and should be a lot closer than the rest and will pass on voting here as I'm not sure at the moment who I'd choose comfortably.

 

Thank you for the comments. However we can talk about in the next polls.

[shodate]

 

Guys, do you like these comparisons in eventual new polls?

 

1)Bryan Danielson vs Kenta Kobashi

2)Eddie Guerrero vs Bret Hart

3)Mitsuharu Misawa vs Toshiaki Kawada

4)Shawn Michaels vs Chris Benoit

5)Jun Akiyama vs Shinsuke Nakamura

6)AJ Styles vs Hiroshi Tanahashi

7)Samoa Joe vs Curt Hennig

8)Hiroshi Hase vs Kurt Angle

Kobashi -- to me, Danielson's peak was during his mid to late ROH run and my favorite Kobashi run was during his early to mid 2000's Noah run and in my opinion, Kobashi had the better run. I know others will say Danielson's best run is probably his WWE run, but I don't agree

 

Eddie -- I'm a big fan of Bret's, but Eddie had better matches against more diverse opponents in more diverse settings than Bret.

 

Kawada -- Charisma aside, Kawada to me was better overall than Misawa.

 

Benoit -- HBK had bigger and better opportunities, but on a constant basis, Benoit was far better imo.

 

Akiyama -- Nakamura has had some good to great runs, but I don't think he's had a run as good as Akiyama's 2000's run. Nakamura also coasts on matches whenever he wants to as he's doing currently in WWE.

 

Styles -- Not even comparable. Styles is just far better in every aspect.

 

Joe -- I'm sure this will be closer to other people, but in my opinion Joe's ROH world title run and his involvement in the ROH vs. CZW feud put him above Hennig for me and I'm a huge Hennig fan.

 

 

Hase vs. Angle -- This an interesting one and should be a lot closer than the rest and will pass on voting here as I'm not sure at the moment who I'd choose comfortably.

 

jow roh title runn was shit minus the punk matches

 

Aj was never the savior ofa promotion New japan would be dead with out the once in generation talent aj nevr made tna when he was ace there in the true number w in true drawing card number 2 promotion in the world before you say its about in irng abilty not drawing power tanahashi has thta inirng abilty and work rate to draw Japan overall is still ever inirng driven 75% of fans say it should stay that way too

 

the other i either partly agree or fully agree with

[Edwin]

jow roh title runn was shit minus the punk matches

 

Aj was never the savior ofa promotion New japan would be dead with out the once in generation talent aj nevr made tna when he was ace there in the true number w in true drawing card number 2 promotion in the world

 

the other i either partly agree or fully agree with

Joe's ROH world title run wasn't full of 10 star classics or whatever, but a lot of the success he's encountered in his career is due to the reputation he obtained with that lengthy dominant title run.

 

Tanahashi is exceedingly overrated. Sure he appeals to the locals, but his matches leave a lot to be desired. AJ on the other hand has provided quality matches in different settings against a diverse set of opponents as proven by his current WWE run. I mean, the dude got a very good match out of Shane McMahon which is quite the accomplishment.

[shodate]

 

jow roh title runn was shit minus the punk matches

 

Aj was never the savior ofa promotion New japan would be dead with out the once in generation talent aj nevr made tna when he was ace there in the true number w in true drawing card number 2 promotion in the world

 

the other i either partly agree or fully agree with

I'm aware Joe's ROH title run didn't have that many great matches, but his dominant performances during that run and the aura it created for him was amazing and Aries finally dethroning him came across as a huge deal thanks to his dominant performances.

 

Tanahashi is exceedingly overrated. Sure he appeals to the locals, but his matches leave a lot to be desired. AJ on the other hand has provided quality matches in different settings against a diverse set of opponents as proven by his current WWE run. I mean, the dude got a very good match out of Shane McMahon which is quite the accomplishment.

 

 

read my edit ot tanhashi bit and im that aj shane match was * at very best

 

Diverse opponent not diveseve styles espcayy wwe where the style is very homogous more show than go style ie its not very work rate based like hence why braun in main event level in wwe and fale is not the same in new japan

 

iv given out three ***** ratings all decade one was too the KoPW 2012 match tanahashi vs suzuki Aj is my view even with suzuki did not even come close compare there work vs the same opponents even though his stuff with okada is not ***** id all of hoving around the 85-90% range or around ****1/2 range but aj and Okada did not even come close and plus to add a but of kayfabe in to in Tanaashi was held belt that has not been devalued as much as the wwe has

 

even with NJPW infamous 2003 iwgp title booking take in ot account there has been more wwe title chanages since say january 1997 to today than tere has been wwe IWGP ones yes aj held the IWGP title yes but wwe title was been soi devlaued from akk the title changes to Jinder to alot of crap worker hodling the top title

 

id say from 1990- the iwgp title was be hekd by more elte level in ring workerst than wwe title ever will be lent alone its has less lower level worker hold it the wriost be yasuda in my book ponly top 20 all time worker to hold the wwe title was flair

 

biggest does not meabn best wwe may be the biggest company iin the world but there title is not even top 10 in the world

[Laz]

 

biggest does not meabn best wwe may be the biggest company iin the world but there title is not even top 10 in the world

...yes, the single most visible company on the planet's top title doesn't mean anything. You're right.

 

What if Volk Han held it?

[shodate]

 

 

biggest does not meabn best wwe may be the biggest company iin the world but there title is not even top 10 in the world

...yes, the single most visible company on the planet's top title doesn't mean anything. You're right.

 

What if Volk Han held it?

 

it about how its booked and pure in ring quilty not who has held it

 

they have booked in almost as bad as the wcw title was booked in 2000

 

RINGS of most of time pre mma it never had a title but i siill put in my top five promotions for the year from 1992-1997 and top three of thr year a couple of time why cause the fact it was booked so well you felt like matches were the best vs the best same with say nwa /wcw in 89

 

look at maina this year i would never call Roman or anyone muted to in any top card match [ minus nakamura nd aj] to be teair one or tair two worker based on how i judge workers

 

so how can i say in my view that there biggest show of the year is the best vs the best when it is not in fact in my eyes that

 

and before you say or any one says oh you dont like braun caue hes a big mani adore gordy hansen vader among other who would be called Hw or even super hw in combat sports

 

and side note when rings introcued the worked world title in 1998 it was Tamura who wn the first vs beating han in the final id also put han above tamura but

my views on han aside

 

that match Legit like the besr in RINGS facing each other

 

WWE has better workers thah Roman simple as i kike brock but people wwe have better workers than Brock as well

 

so in my prespticve, it's not best vs best thus devaluing the belt

 

and in the late 1990's thanks russo the belt began its delibce via hot shotting

 

minus vacanies

 

compere hon many people different runs the iwgp and wwe belt have had betwenn jan 1st 1998 and today

 

i say minus vacnies becuse like nakamura first title run ended du ot legt injuty not a work another ruan withc ended when the champion broke his eye socket ]

 

so to be fare ot wwe i cut out vacinies

 

and i think you will find iwgp has been over all less devalued ehrn when NJPW was down the dark days of inokiism

 

 

no belt has ever been booked 100% perfect i just judge on what has been devalued the least

 

based on match quilty booking and quilty of worker [based on how i judge a worker]