80s NWA vs. 90s AJPW vs. 00s ROH vs. 10s NJPW

[fxnj]

Don't want to hijack the ROH/AJPW thread with NJPW talk, so I thought this would be a cool topic on its own. 80s NWA was guys trying to speed up the mat-based style dominant up to around the 70s. 90s AJPW was Baba trying to cut the fat off the NWA style while also seeing how it could be pushed further. 00s ROH was tape traders aping AJPW while also incorporating influences from other wrestling they grew up with. 10s NJPW was what happened when those tape traders got a shot at working an NJPW that had already started aping 90s AJPW. Who did it better?

 

My thoughts:

 

80s NWA has always a bit rough around the edges to me. It was a necessary bridge for the wrestling landscape to evolve, but I think it holds up worse than a lot of the 50s-early 70s stuff. I don't think that Ric Flair literally wrestled the same match every night, but I do think it's a problem that the matches rarely featured dynamics that evolved beyond just good vs. evil, and there is too much emphasis on keeping things moving with constant action at the expense of struggle or telling stories deeper than just working a bodypart.

 

90s AJPW is the gold standard for me. It basically took the American style that AJPW had used for much of the 80s and cut out all the bullshit in the name of developing the in-ring product. Instead of clear-cut faces and heels, the matches were great at feeling like a clash between different personalities and wrestling philosophies. Every big match feels like a chapter in a book, and there's a remarkable over-arching story told from the Jumbo/Tenryu feud up to Misawa/Kobashi and Baba's death. They found ways to push the action far beyond the NWA style, while also putting a bigger emphasis on the struggle and selling. Though it's not well-known for its matwork, I think even on that metric the AJPW guys are the best I'd ever seen at making basic sequences engaging.

 

00s ROH is the one I've followed the least. Based on the handful of pimped matches I've seen, it seems to try to combine the physicality of AJPW with the pace of juniors matches, at the expense of some of the storytelling and detail work. I find it entertaining, but I have yet to find a match that really grabs me like the 90's AJPW masterpieces. Also, it seems kind of brought down by the lack of an overarching story for the whole thing. Though it tried to mimic AJPW's style, its booking style was very different with most of its big matches being treated as one-off dream matches rather than telling the long-term stories of a static roster of characters.

 

10s NJPW is a promotion I'd followed in the earlier part of this decade, but my interest kind of fell off right around the time it started getting pimped as the greatest wrestling ever done. I've watched many of the pimped matches, though, and 90's AJPW with guys who are worse at killing time is probably how I'd describe it. I have to admit that the matches have some of the best stretch runs I'd ever seen and even improve on classic AJPW in some ways, but I generally don't find the beginning and middle sections of the matches that engaging. It does seem to have quite a bit of long-term storytelling, especially in the Tanahashi/Okada feud, but the booking seems kind of wonky and I don't find the matches quite up to par with Misawa/Kawada.

[shodate]

The thing is Style and match structure wise Roh 00's and NJPW 10's is much the same as AJ 90's Talk to most indie guys they will say the liked AJPW pore growing up more os than NJPW they copy the Kings Road style simple as that sometimes the workers are better or sometimes there not match quilty wise since there much of the same style Aj 90's did it better they are better.

 

Match Quilty is the most Subjective thing in the world so yes but that is the point

[Loss]

The best thing about 80s NWA is that high value was placed on both match quality and great promos and angles. It's really the only time that has been done successfully with a national audience, as since then, we've had companies who generally value one heavily over the other, which is an unnecessary binary in my view. Mid South was better booked and probably had better in-ring up and down the card, but Flair and Cornette in particular were such all time-level promo guys that they were pretty much a guarantee of at least something great on every show. JCP crashed and burned because the talent got stale and Dusty Rhodes became burned out as a booker. Mid South just didn't have any talkers at quite that level, even though guys like Hayes and Watts were awesome. I agree 90s AJPW was better, but the booking was often frustrating for being so slow-paced and repeating the same matchups, even if they were freshened up many times until the style sort of fell over a cliff. 2000s ROH isn't even in this discussion for me. It was more cool for being something underground and watching a lot of young wrestlers overachieve, but I don't think the work matched the work in JCP, Mid South, or AJPW. I don't have an opinion on 2010s NJPW since I haven't watched enough to produce a fair judgment.

 

Late 80s/early 90s CMLL should be thrown into this conversation too.

[supremebve]

The thing is Style and match structure wise Roh 00's and NJPW 10's is much the same as AJ 90's Talk to most indie guys they will say the liked AJPW pore growing up more os than NJPW they copy the Kings Road style simple as that sometimes the workers are better or sometimes there not match quilty wise since there much of the same style Aj 90's did it better they are better.

 

Match Quilty is the most Subjective thing in the world so yes but that is the point

I think the indy workers trying to recreate 90s AJPW is kind of like rappers in the late 90s tying a bandanna around their head and expecting to become 2pac. Sure, they were fans and liked that style, but they kind of cherry picked the aesthetic parts, but not the deeper parts that made those style work. AJPW was a lot of flashy moves, but those moves were built upon years of character development, story-telling, and psychology. That's not something you can really recreate in a high school gym with a cast of characters that is fluid by nature. You can do a bunch of flashy moves and drop people on their heads, but without the foundational psychology of AJPW you're putting solar panels on the roof of a dog house.

[Boss Rock]

 

The thing is Style and match structure wise Roh 00's and NJPW 10's is much the same as AJ 90's Talk to most indie guys they will say the liked AJPW pore growing up more os than NJPW they copy the Kings Road style simple as that sometimes the workers are better or sometimes there not match quilty wise since there much of the same style Aj 90's did it better they are better.

 

Match Quilty is the most Subjective thing in the world so yes but that is the point

I think the indy workers trying to recreate 90s AJPW is kind of like rappers in the late 90s tying a bandanna around their head and expecting to become 2pac. Sure, they were fans and liked that style, but they kind of cherry picked the aesthetic parts, but not the deeper parts that made those style work. AJPW was a lot of flashy moves, but those moves were built upon years of character development, story-telling, and psychology. That's not something you can really recreate in a high school gym with a cast of characters that is fluid by nature. You can do a bunch of flashy moves and drop people on their heads, but without the foundational psychology of AJPW you're putting solar panels on the roof of a dog house.

 

 

That's generally how view I a lot of the excess problems with indie wrestling today. Although I think it's certainly fair to say AJPW got more and more excessive in later years (and by extension so did Noah), but they also had the storytelling, psychology, and sense of escalation a lot of the imitators did not.

[Boss Rock]

90's AJPW and '10's NJPW are the only promotions I've really followed/viewed closely (although I think your point about 00's ROH is certainly applicable to later workers like Richards). I do think NJPW has the great long-term storytelling that AJPW had, but as Loss mentioned above the slow-burn over multiple years can get incredibly frustrating. Also, I agree that the 90's AJPW workers were better at building up the finishing stretch and bigger moments of the match whereas a lot of NJPW main events could lose the first 10 minutes and not be affected too much.

[El-P]

I think there's a misconception about AJ 90's "slow-burn" booking that comes from the fact people are binge watching that stuff now decades after the fact, which of course wasn't meant to be and gives a skewed perspective on the perception of it. The fact is that slow-burn booking was doing great business for a long time. That was Baba's magic touch.

[Boss Rock]

I think there's a misconception about AJ 90's "slow-burn" booking that comes from the fact people are binge watching that stuff now decades after the fact, which of course wasn't meant to be and gives a skewed perspective on the perception of it. The fact is that slow-burn booking was doing great business for a long time. That was Baba's magic touch.

 

Was there a particular time it started to go downhill? It always seemed like holding off on Kawada hurt them. Then again, Kobashi finally beat Misawa in '03 and became a huge draw.

[El-P]

I guess late 90's when they wouldn't give Kawada the ultimate nod, yes, but I'm really not the right guy for this. Where's JDW when we need him ?

[AA484]

2000 WWF was probably their best year ringwork/storyline wise, no? Maybe not all the way up and down the card but their main event scene, midcard scene (Angle, Radicalz, Jericho, etc.), and tag scene all put on good matches and memorable storylines as well as pulling in big bucks. And all this without Austin.

[ohtani's jacket]

You need to be in the right frame of mind to enjoy any of them. After watching a ton of 50s wrestling I doubt Crocket would do a hell of a lot for me. But if I had the sudden desire to watch some wrestling promos, I'm sure I could get into the studio vibe and the matches. With AJPW, I need to be in the frame of mind to appreciate all the grandiose things that people enjoy otherwise it's just guys going through the same motions over and over again. With ROH, I figure I'd need to be in the mood to enjoy an indy and an alternative form of wrestling. With NJPW a lot of the time it was looking for the good amid a bunch of counter-reaction and criticism. And preferring shoot style and matwork, I need to channel some of my basic appreciation for classic pro-wrestling to get the most out of AJPW and modern NJPW.

 

I figure the best year or two from each promotion is enjoyable, Most peak wrestling is enjoyable. But it depends where I am in my own viewing cycle.

[shodate]

 

The thing is Style and match structure wise Roh 00's and NJPW 10's is much the same as AJ 90's Talk to most indie guys they will say the liked AJPW pore growing up more os than NJPW they copy the Kings Road style simple as that sometimes the workers are better or sometimes there not match quilty wise since there much of the same style Aj 90's did it better they are better.

 

Match Quilty is the most Subjective thing in the world so yes but that is the point

I think the indy workers trying to recreate 90s AJPW is kind of like rappers in the late 90s tying a bandanna around their head and expecting to become 2pac. Sure, they were fans and liked that style, but they kind of cherry picked the aesthetic parts, but not the deeper parts that made those style work. AJPW was a lot of flashy moves, but those moves were built upon years of character development, story-telling, and psychology. That's not something you can really recreate in a high school gym with a cast of characters that is fluid by nature. You can do a bunch of flashy moves and drop people on their heads, but without the foundational psychology of AJPW you're putting solar panels on the roof of a dog house.

 

Hen why i use the term Indy/Road cuase it the style without the substance but modern NJPW copies that style i know this since Gedo hates strong style

[joeg]

Ranking these 4-

 

90s All Japan > 80s NWA > 10s NJPW > 00s ROH

[SPS]

 

The thing is Style and match structure wise Roh 00's and NJPW 10's is much the same as AJ 90's Talk to most indie guys they will say the liked AJPW pore growing up more os than NJPW they copy the Kings Road style simple as that sometimes the workers are better or sometimes there not match quilty wise since there much of the same style Aj 90's did it better they are better.

 

Match Quilty is the most Subjective thing in the world so yes but that is the point

I think the indy workers trying to recreate 90s AJPW is kind of like rappers in the late 90s tying a bandanna around their head and expecting to become 2pac. Sure, they were fans and liked that style, but they kind of cherry picked the aesthetic parts, but not the deeper parts that made those style work. AJPW was a lot of flashy moves, but those moves were built upon years of character development, story-telling, and psychology. That's not something you can really recreate in a high school gym with a cast of characters that is fluid by nature. You can do a bunch of flashy moves and drop people on their heads, but without the foundational psychology of AJPW you're putting solar panels on the roof of a dog house.

 

 

Brilliantly said, you pretty much summarized my thoughts and a great analogy to boot.

[Mad Dog]

One of my favorite parts of New Japan the last couple of years has been watching Nagata, Tenzan and Kojima working Young Lions on the undercards. I'll always check out a house show if they're on it. There's something really cool watching Nagata work with a guy that's had a handful of matches.

[Boss Rock]

The Dads are usually a lot of fun in tags. Their feud with the NOAH guys in 2016 was a hoot.

[El-P]

I always enjoyed that principle of hierarchy and age in japanese pro-wrestling. I think it really goes along with the way Japanese society is structured as a whole, but it gives a sense of "reality" (as opposed to "performance") that is very compelling to me. It also allows every match that involves such elements to have simple yet effective stories, without having to explain anything (it's expected the veteran to be much better despite his age, so the young boy just hanging on or pushing the veteran a bit creates an easy dynamic to get into).