Recommend Me Joshi

[Mad Dog]

I've really enjoyed Stardom the last couple of years. Great promotion and I really dig the style. I've also branched out and checked out some of the other promotions and have also enjoyed them.

 

Historical joshi is something I'm pretty blind too. I've watched some matches here and there but I would really like to dig in more. So where's a good place to start? I'm assuming AJW? What are the best matches? Should I cherry pick the top end matches or watch things in context?

[El-P]

AJW 92-95 + 97 (for the LCO stuff)

JWP : 93 - 98

ARSION : 98 - 01

GAEA : 96 - 01

 

If you have nothing against FMW, the big Kudo matches from 92 until her retirement in 97.

 

That's the classic stuff I used to be a big fan of. Of course there's more to cherry pick from in the 90's (LLPW, Jd'), but for starters, that's plenty already. At this point I would watch in context, but I guess picking the best stuff from the yearbook would probably be a great start anyway (not too sure what is there, but I guess it's the basics). I should really dive back into that stuff one day...

[Mad Dog]

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

[El-P]

ARSION used to be my all-time favourite thing back then, so of course I would tell you to start right there. There's a shoot-style flavor to the first year (and a half, almost) which is very different from any other joshi at the time (or since I guess), so it's really not representative of the style. The thread in the Microscope gives you a pretty good idea of what it was about. But yeah, Mariko Yoshida is the greatest and coolest ever.

 

Of course, the interpromotionnal era of 92-94/5 is just iconic stuff. To follow all the TV and big shows (which thankfully were released on com tapes) from back then is really getting deep in the meat of what 90's joshi in all its glory was all about, when it was hot and relevant as part of the scene.

[KB8]

I struggled with a lot of joshi for about fifteen years, but ARSION was a cracking little promotion that I jumped into towards the end of the GWE project, and through that Jerome's girl Yoshida became one of my absolute favourite wrestlers. The more minimalistic style of ARSION with the quasi-shoot trappings really just hit the sweet spot for me (I haven't seen much post-2000, but as mentioned it sort of moved away from what made it so unique after a little while).

 

I haven't watched more than a handful of matches from current joshi promotions since current was 2006, but I'd guess that if you're digging Stardom then you shouldn't have much issue jumping into the heralded AJW stuff, the Dreamslams, Big Egg, etc. Personally, ARSION was so fun to me because it was different from the 90s AJW/JWP that I had a hard time getting into. It doesn't sound like you'd have that same issue, so I guess...watch, like, everything?

[Edwin]

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

[NintendoLogic]

Pretty much anything with Aja Kong is worth checking out, as is any interpromotional match with Shinobu Kandori.

[Kadaveri]

Loss did a great Introduction to Joshi thread here. The YouTube links aren't working anymore but just google the match with the date and you'll find them on the internet somewhere.

[Mad Dog]

 

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

 

 

Are the AJW Classics discs worth getting for the 80s content?

[El-P]

 

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

 

The 80's are very idiosyncratic though. You can get hooked but you can also not quite get it either (especially the Crush Gals stuff which was *really* aimed at a specific audience). The 90's will look much more familiar to someone already used to modern puroresu.

[Mad Dog]

So I'm looking at a list. Would I be good just starting in late 1991 with AJW and moving forward on the shows?

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

 

 

Are the AJW Classics discs worth getting for the 80s content?

 

 

The AJW Classics episodes jump around a lot. They feature the biggest matches of the Crush Girls era but don't cover the transition period from the 70s Beauty Pair boom to the Crush Girls boom -- the era where Jackie Sato was ace, Jaguar Yokota was the young challenger, Monster Ripper the monster heel, Black Pair the main native heels, and Devil Masami terrorised Mimi Hagiwara. The benefit of All Japan Classics is that the matches air in full whereas on TV they were clipped.

 

I think you should start at a transition point -- either post Jackie Sato or post Crush Girls. If you want to watch the 90s inter-promotional stuff it's a good idea to start with the early 90s shows to see how the young AJW stars grew into their roles (Hokuto, Aja, Toyota, Kyoko, etc.) If you track the growth of each star it gives you more of a feel for the emotional context instead of concentrating only on the in-ring style which people get hung up about at times.

 

Just watch wrestler X or Y is the worst way to watch Joshi. Joshi is a bit like lucha in that it is not one style. There is a certain style that people associate with it but it isn't the only working style. When you see a flaw or something you think is wrong with the style, try to remember that flaw is 100% deliberate. It's not as though dozens upon dozens of Joshi workers went out there and made the same basic mistakes. The girls chose to wrestle the way they did just like other styles evolved in different ways. It's not wrong per se, it's just different. You need to try to adjust to the rhythm of what they're doing. It helps to think about it as a live experience and what you would pop for if you were in the crowd.

 

Good luck.

[El-P]

So I'm looking at a list. Would I be good just starting in late 1991 with AJW and moving forward on the shows?

 

Yes.

 

If you can get some JWP from the same time period, at least from 92 and on, it would be pretty much perfect to follow the interpromotional era.

[fxnj]

 

 

 

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

 

 

Are the AJW Classics discs worth getting for the 80s content?

 

 

The AJW Classics episodes jump around a lot. They feature the biggest matches of the Crush Girls era but don't cover the transition period from the 70s Beauty Pair boom to the Crush Girls boom -- the era where Jackie Sato was ace, Jaguar Yokota was the young challenger, Monster Ripper the monster heel, Black Pair the main native heels, and Devil Masami terrorised Mimi Hagiwara. The benefit of All Japan Classics is that the matches air in full whereas on TV they were clipped.

 

I think you should start at a transition point -- either post Jackie Sato or post Crush Girls. If you want to watch the 90s inter-promotional stuff it's a good idea to start with the early 90s shows to see how the young AJW stars grew into their roles (Hokuto, Aja, Toyota, Kyoko, etc.) If you track the growth of each star it gives you more of a feel for the emotional context instead of concentrating only on the in-ring style which people get hung up about at times.

 

Just watch wrestler X or Y is the worst way to watch Joshi. Joshi is a bit like lucha in that it is not one style. There is a certain style that people associate with it but it isn't the only working style. When you see a flaw or something you think is wrong with the style, try to remember that flaw is 100% deliberate. It's not as though dozens upon dozens of Joshi workers went out there and made the same basic mistakes. The girls chose to wrestle the way they did just like other styles evolved in different ways. It's not wrong per se, it's just different. You need to try to adjust to the rhythm of what they're doing. It helps to think about it as a live experience and what you would pop for if you were in the crowd.

 

Good luck.

 

Not sure if I'd even call joshi a style. Joshi really just means Japanese women's wrestling and there's just as much diversity in it as there is in Japanese men's wrestling. AJW seemed to allow their top workers to determine the house style and wasn't much like CMLL in terms of forcing everyone to wrestle a specific way. The handful of Beauty Pair matched I've seen seemed to have been almost entirely old-school mat wrestling. The Crush Girls stuff was still mat-dominated but added in technical striking and high flying elements. Dump, Bull and Aja introduced weapons brawling. It's not until Toyota that the workrate sprint style most people think of as "joshi style" starts to be en vogue. Then you go into the late 90's and you get the aforementioned shooty ARSION stuff. After AJW loses its grip, you see even more diversity with stuff like Yoshiko Tamura wrestling NWA champ hybrid, Meiko Satomura wrestling shoot-style hybrid, and inter-gender matches becoming a thing.

[Tim Cooke]

If you like shoot style, Yoshida is ARSION in 1999 is excellent.

 

Most Bull Nakano 1991-1995 is worth seeing. I like the Kong/Satamura matches from 99-01. AJW 4/7/85 Asuka vs Nagayo has maybe the greatest heat I've ever heard for a match (and the match is excellent as well)

[ohtani's jacket]

 

 

 

 

I'm a big context watcher so I might go that way. Is ARSION okay to jump into first or should I save it for after some of the earlier 90s stuff?

Don't jump into the 90's, jump into the 80's first. The Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals feud is must watch.

 

 

Are the AJW Classics discs worth getting for the 80s content?

 

 

The AJW Classics episodes jump around a lot. They feature the biggest matches of the Crush Girls era but don't cover the transition period from the 70s Beauty Pair boom to the Crush Girls boom -- the era where Jackie Sato was ace, Jaguar Yokota was the young challenger, Monster Ripper the monster heel, Black Pair the main native heels, and Devil Masami terrorised Mimi Hagiwara. The benefit of All Japan Classics is that the matches air in full whereas on TV they were clipped.

 

I think you should start at a transition point -- either post Jackie Sato or post Crush Girls. If you want to watch the 90s inter-promotional stuff it's a good idea to start with the early 90s shows to see how the young AJW stars grew into their roles (Hokuto, Aja, Toyota, Kyoko, etc.) If you track the growth of each star it gives you more of a feel for the emotional context instead of concentrating only on the in-ring style which people get hung up about at times.

 

Just watch wrestler X or Y is the worst way to watch Joshi. Joshi is a bit like lucha in that it is not one style. There is a certain style that people associate with it but it isn't the only working style. When you see a flaw or something you think is wrong with the style, try to remember that flaw is 100% deliberate. It's not as though dozens upon dozens of Joshi workers went out there and made the same basic mistakes. The girls chose to wrestle the way they did just like other styles evolved in different ways. It's not wrong per se, it's just different. You need to try to adjust to the rhythm of what they're doing. It helps to think about it as a live experience and what you would pop for if you were in the crowd.

 

Good luck.

 

Not sure if I'd even call joshi a style. Joshi really just means Japanese women's wrestling and there's just as much diversity in it as there is in Japanese men's wrestling. AJW seemed to allow their top workers to determine the house style and wasn't much like CMLL in terms of forcing everyone to wrestle a specific way. The handful of Beauty Pair matched I've seen seemed to have been almost entirely old-school mat wrestling. The Crush Girls stuff was still mat-dominated but added in technical striking and high flying elements. Dump, Bull and Aja introduced weapons brawling. It's not until Toyota that the workrate sprint style most people think of as "joshi style" starts to be en vogue. Then you go into the late 90's and you get the aforementioned shooty ARSION stuff. After AJW loses its grip, you see even more diversity with stuff like Yoshiko Tamura wrestling NWA champ hybrid, Meiko Satomura wrestling shoot-style hybrid, and inter-gender matches becoming a thing.

 

 

The style that people think is synonymous with Toyota began in the 70s and continued through the 80s until Toyota and weapons brawling existed in the early 80s with Black Pair and Devil Masami using weapons before Dump's Army.

 

In Japan, the trainers have a lot to say about the promotion's wrestling style as well as the promoters.

[Mrzfn]

Saw El-P posting about being surprised at a great modern Aja Kong match so thought I'd put these two out there, vs. Chihiro Hashimoto from last year. Two of my favorite bouts of the year and best if viewed together. Not historical but well worth checking out.

 

https://rutube.ru/video/fc370f0923472c1be4989900e2bc38d0/

 

https://rutube.ru/video/1420ed5760ec1d5512f82c4d0b3d1c5c/

[Loss]

In the previous thread linked above, I tried to provide a guide for how to jump in that I hope you find helpful. I'll reiterate that I think the 80s are a better starting point than the 90s.

[Mad Dog]

How much of the 80s is complete and in order for AJW? Would I mostly need to watch it via Classics?

[Loss]

On TV, most of it is clipped, deceptively so because their editing was so good. Classics is the best route, yeah.

[ohtani's jacket]

How much of the 80s is complete and in order for AJW? Would I mostly need to watch it via Classics?

 

There are entire seasons of TV available but the matches are clipped. The Classes matches are in full but they didn't release them in any sort of linear fashion like they did with All Japan Classics and New Japan Classics. And they didn't air many episodes. Perhaps you can pick up the shows and do a deep dive if you really like the era. They have some good stuff on them like the Chigusa vs. Leilani Kai matches that never get talked about.

[Mad Dog]

I did some looking and reading and decided to go with 1989 as my start date as that seemed like a transition phase for AJW.

[Edwin]

The 80's are very idiosyncratic though. You can get hooked but you can also not quite get it either (especially the Crush Gals stuff which was *really* aimed at a specific audience). The 90's will look much more familiar to someone already used to modern puroresu.

Some of it, yes, but the Gokuaku Domei vs. Crush Gals is pretty easy to get into as its pretty easy to define the heel/face dynamic there, namely the 2 hair matches which are great.

[fxnj]

I personally find much of the 90's AJW stuff too spotty and have generally gravitated more towards the 80's stuff when I'm in the mood to watch some peak joshi. Honestly, people finding the 80's stuff hard to get into is news to me. How can you have a hard time getting into the hottest crowds in wrestling history?

[ohtani's jacket]

Even when the Dump vs. Crush Girls feud was at its height, Chigusa and Lioness were already trying to break the mold of what an idol should be and were beginning to incorporate a UWF influence into their work. Its kind of surreal watching the schoolgirls lose their shit over the Crush Girls while the Crush Girls are working a hybrid style. But if youre talking sporty then the ultimate test of how much you can enjoy or tolerate Joshi has to be the 87 Lioness vs. Asuka match. I wouldnt want people thinking that 80s Joshi was somehow different from the 90s stuff. There is a natural evolution and you can see the roots of the 90s stuff throughout the 70s and 80s footage.