WON HOF 2018

[Jmare007]

A little update on CIMA: DDT's Peter Pan show drew 6,259 people at Sumo Hall, claimed as a sellout. Last year they did 5,900 and was also claimed as a sellout and the Sumo Hall show from March did 5,700. Even though the difference is very small, it was very likely that show was going to barely do 5k without the addition of Strong Hearts in the last month.

[DeanColes1987]

On 10/20/2018 at 3:32 PM, cheapshot said:

My ballot:

I FOLLOWED THE HISTORICAL PERFORMERS ERA CANDIDATES X

Sputnik Monroe
Enrique Torres
Von Brauners & Saul Weingeroff
Johnny "Wrestling II" Walker
Bearcat Wright
Wild Bull Curry  
 
I FOLLOWED THE MODERN PERFORMERS IN U.S/CANADA CANDIDATES X

Junkyard Dog

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA X

Big Daddy
Jackie Pallo
Mario Milano  

NON-WRESTLERS 

Stanley Weston  
Jim Crockett Jr.
Howard Finkel
Jimmy Hart
Jerry Jarrett

If there wasn't a limit on numbers would you still be a yes on Kerry? I know you did some podcasts on it.

[W2BTD]

On 10/21/2018 at 10:05 AM, Jmare007 said:

A little update on CIMA: DDT's Peter Pan show drew 6,259 people at Sumo Hall, claimed as a sellout. Last year they did 5,900 and was also claimed as a sellout and the Sumo Hall show from March did 5,700. Even though the difference is very small, it was very likely that show was going to barely do 5k without the addition of Strong Hearts in the last month.

This show was setup for 6300 with the giant stage, so this was a legit super no vacancy full house.

[GSR]

Just now, cheapshot said:

I FOLLOWED WRESTLING IN EUROPE/AUSTRALIA/NEW ZEALAND/PACIFIC ISLANDS/AFRICA X

Big Daddy
Jackie Pallo
Mario Milano  

As a Brit, while my interest in the Observer HOF has diminished greatly over the years, I'm always interested to see if anyone from the UK gets in and how they do on the ballot.  I've not been actively searching them out, but have now seen six ballots from voters voting in this region and Allan's is the only one to feature either Daddy or Pallo.  One person voted only from Rocco, the other four all voted Saint (and a couple of those had Billy Joyce on theirs too).

[sek69]

I just get the impression, right or wrong, that it's impossible for any UK star from the past to get any traction since until recently there was no way to get footage. Plus I recall back when people first started discovering shows like World of Sport, some folks were kind of off put by the rounds system as some alien form of wrestling. 

Plus there's an inherent bias in voting for guys you grew up with, sometimes unknowingly. I would suspect a borderline candidate that the voter was aware of growing up is going to have a thumb on the scale compared to a UK guy. 

[Al]

How many World of Sport wrestlers would be ideal? Or British wrestlers overall?

[NintendoLogic]

There's also been an issue recently with American voters with no knowledge of the region voting for Big Daddy for the lulz and hurting everyone else's percentages.

[Jmare007]

21 hours ago, W2BTD said:

This show was setup for 6300 with the giant stage, so this was a legit super no vacancy full house.

I don't think that's what matters here.

[sek69]

I also think that UK stars of the past suffer some of the same curse of a lot of US territoral stars, in that because their company eventually went under it's used as a club against them. 

[Tim Cooke]

12 hours ago, GSR said:

As a Brit, while my interest in the Observer HOF has diminished greatly over the years, I'm always interested to see if anyone from the UK gets in and how they do on the ballot.  I've not been actively searching them out, but have now seen six ballots from voters voting in this region and Allan's is the only one to feature either Daddy or Pallo.  One person voted only from Rocco, the other four all voted Saint (and a couple of those had Billy Joyce on theirs too).

If we're going off just work alone (the precedent starting with Shawn Michaels), Jim Breaks should be in.

[NintendoLogic]

Saying that Shawn got in "off just work alone" seems to be an attempt to elide the issue. When he was still on the ballot, Dave would note that there's a generation that views him as the greatest in-ring performer of all time or close to it. So yes, you can get in off work alone if you're a GOAT candidate. I don't know of any substantial contingent that views Breaks or CIMA or the like in that way.

[Matt D]

Anyone who has ever watched more than one Breaks match? 

More seriously, the problem I have with trying to figure out the UK guys for WON HOF inclusion is that the usual drawing/touring/loops metrics aren't at all 1 to 1. Our exposure is basically the TV show, but they were working up and down the country on a weekly basis and that's very opaque to us in both qualitative and quantitative terms in 2018.

[Tim Cooke]

Go read the Wrestling Classics thread from 2002 about Shawn as a WON HOF'er vs. Takada.  All he has is work.  No eluding here.  The farther removed we get from his induction, the more I think the "he was regarded as the best of his generation" is overblown as well.  There were 10 indy workers between 2002-2007 working as a Benoit clone.  I guess Spanky was a Michael's esque guy (while also being trained by him).  Point is - straight work gets you into the WON.  Michaels and Angle opened that Pandora's box.  No reason CIMA and Breaks shouldn't get in based on work.

[cheapshot]

On 10/22/2018 at 3:23 PM, DeanColes1987 said:

If there wasn't a limit on numbers would you still be a yes on Kerry? I know you did some podcasts on it.

I had him on the first draft of my ballot this year, then after more thought, felt he should go on the ballot with David and Kevin rather than as singularly. 

[cheapshot]

19 hours ago, GSR said:

As a Brit, while my interest in the Observer HOF has diminished greatly over the years, I'm always interested to see if anyone from the UK gets in and how they do on the ballot.  I've not been actively searching them out, but have now seen six ballots from voters voting in this region and Allan's is the only one to feature either Daddy or Pallo.  One person voted only from Rocco, the other four all voted Saint (and a couple of those had Billy Joyce on theirs too).

I couldn't vote for anyone else really until either Pallo or Daddy got it. Rocco really doesn't have an actual HoF case, he's a level down in my eyes. 

[cheapshot]

17 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

There's also been an issue recently with American voters with no knowledge of the region voting for Big Daddy for the lulz and hurting everyone else's percentages.

I've had US voters reach me out to me privately who wanted me to convince them to vote Daddy, so it's more than "the lulz". 

[cheapshot]

18 hours ago, Al said:

How many World of Sport wrestlers would be ideal? Or British wrestlers overall?

I think it's pointless adding anyone else. Dave's not going to put Jim Breaks back on either, rightly or wrongly. 

[NintendoLogic]

On 10/24/2018 at 1:52 PM, Tim Cooke said:

Go read the Wrestling Classics thread from 2002 about Shawn as a WON HOF'er vs. Takada.  All he has is work.  No eluding here.  The farther removed we get from his induction, the more I think the "he was regarded as the best of his generation" is overblown as well.  There were 10 indy workers between 2002-2007 working as a Benoit clone.  I guess Spanky was a Michael's esque guy (while also being trained by him).  Point is - straight work gets you into the WON.  Michaels and Angle opened that Pandora's box.  No reason CIMA and Breaks shouldn't get in based on work.

This doesn't address my point. You can get in on straight work if and only if a substantial contingent views you as the greatest performer they've ever seen/worked with and the reason they got into the business. Whether you personally agree with that assessment is immaterial. You also probably need a run as a main event-level star in a major promotion (see also, Styles and Danielson).

On 10/24/2018 at 2:14 PM, cheapshot said:

I've had US voters reach me out to me privately who wanted me to convince them to vote Daddy, so it's more than "the lulz". 

Have you ever laid out the case for him on any public forum? Most of the arguments I've seen for him boil down to "he was really famous" and "the drawing standards wrestlers in other regions have to meet shouldn't apply to him because reasons."

[PeteF3]

With Daddy, for me it comes down to:

1.) He was super-famous, but I don't feel he was as big of a draw as his rep--British wrestling as a whole was bigger in the '60s and '70s than it was in the '80s and certainly in the '90s.

2.) In the 3 major Observer HOF criteria--drawing power, quality of work, and positive influence--he's say a 9.5/10 in one category and a zero to negative in the other two. I fully agree that drawing in the UK is different than drawing in the US, but even if Daddy sold out Wembley Arena 185 straight times like Bruno's MSG legend I wouldn't see him as a HOFer, because his influence was universally negative (why would anyone want to hold *him* up as an example of what British wrestling was like?, and he ended up killing the golden goose anyway, or at least being a major contributing factor) and his quality of work was nonexistent. Only Tiger Jeet Singh compares in terms of sheer non-output over the course of so many years.

[ragemaster]

 

I asked this back in 2012 on Big Daddy, but had no joy in finding out any more info on his early career.

The wrestling heritage site make’s reference to Shirley Crabtree early career, where he wrestled as the blond Adonis, Mr universe, Yukon Eric, and the Battling Guardsman. He was also the independent promoters British heavyweight Champion in the early 1960’s. I cant find any more info on his early career, but it look’s like he had two runs in wrestling. It may help his case if we could find more info on his first run.

Don't know if any more information has come to light on this? 

[Herodes]

Can we please end the narrative that Big Daddy has anything to do with the death of British wrestling? It’s a nice convenient story to think that someone’s lack of “work rate” killed an institution but it’s also false. It died because of a tv executive deciding he didn’t want dirty “working class” rasslin on tv as part of a wider (delusional) 80s Thatcherite strategy. Daddy was a fucking huge star and clearly a slam dunk hall of famer by the simple criteria of fame.

[PeteF3]

Halls of Fame bestow fame, they don't honor it in and of itself.

[NintendoLogic]

On 11/7/2018 at 7:32 AM, Herodes said:

Can we please end the narrative that Big Daddy has anything to do with the death of British wrestling? It’s a nice convenient story to think that someone’s lack of “work rate” killed an institution but it’s also false. It died because of a tv executive deciding he didn’t want dirty “working class” rasslin on tv as part of a wider (delusional) 80s Thatcherite strategy.

This is like saying that WCW died because of Jamie Kellner and the decisions by those in charge had nothing to do with it.

Quote

Daddy was a fucking huge star and clearly a slam dunk hall of famer by the simple criteria of fame.

Fame is not one of the criteria for induction.

[Herodes]

No it’s about putting an end to a neat and tidy (but false) wrestling fan narrative that the “bad worker” killed British wrestling rather than more complex reasons rooted in an explicit cultural shift against working class entertainment at the height of Thatchers Britain and her vilification of that working class.

People seem to worry that this big fat sloppy bastard will sully the purity of the WON HOF but he clearly should be in already as any transcendent cultural icon should long before there is even any debate about clowns like CIMA

 

[PeteF3]

If it were that "clear" then he'd already be voted in. Not only is your narrative just as convenient and simplistic as the people's with whom you're arguing, but why *shouldn't* we emphasize work for an institution where work matters?

Daddy is a much less skeevy Fabulous Moolah. Both bring zero positives or outright negatives as workers or influencers and their cases revolve entirely around the nebulous and tautological idea of already being famous. Daddy doesn't even have Hogan's resume of launching promotions to new heights--British wrestling had already peaked as a crossover phenomenon when his star exploded.