WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year

[Guest JBigred57]

Examples of Michaels and Lashley trying to work suttle heel would be?

Michaels was wrestling like a heel in the 4/23 raw match. not all-out heel, but he was trying to get the crowd behind Cena...and it didn't work out.

 

I also seem to recall Lashley spearing Cena to set up their match.

 

Except again he doesn't win match after match after match. Go to Obsessed with wrestling. Take a look at his won loss record during title run vis a vis HBK and HHH's from same period. Cena isn't being booked is invincible.

I don't believe fans care about the non-title throwaway raw matches he loses. When people pay money for WWE, they see Cena winning. Constantly. He hasnt lost many WWE championship bouts...which is my point. It's too much. A guy like Orton, who is as good as Cena in every way (maybe even better) could easily do what Cena has done, or what WWE has positioned him to do, and I like John Cena.

 

Is there any reason to believe that the women and children who cheer him on, who he draws, who he sells merchandise to will continue to be drawn by Cena as a heel?

No, they would like the babyface, but he would still be a marketing machine and an excellent main event heel. check his 03 heel work for reference.

 

It was incredibly difficult to build credible secondary heels when HHH was burying them. Incredibly difficult to build credible faces when HHH was plowing through them.

 

One of the things that is noticeable about Cena's career is that like Flair people who work a program opposite Cena are more over at the end of the program then they were at the begininning. Even with Cena winning those programs.

 

Edge was more over (more credible) after the program with Cena than he was at the beginning,Umaga was more over (more credible) after program, Khali more over after program, etc.

Interesting points, not entirely true though. Edge benefited? Edge has been over ever since the TLC matches. He worked with Cena and brought Cena to some of Cenas first very good matches. I would say Edge making Cena more credible would be the better argument here. Cena was much better after his series with Edge.

 

Khali? Aura killed and was shipped to the B-show. He did give Khali a good match though, I will hand that to Cena.

 

Umaga? I'd agree with this one. He got to work a main event program with Lashley into wrestlemania and is now one of WWEs top heels.

 

Is that it? Michaels gave Cena a couple good matches, especially the raw match. Did Cena "make Michaels more credible"? No, other way around? YES.

 

HHH I believe fits your Flair idea better. Booker, Benjamin, Steiner, Rock (to an extent) etc all benefitted working with HHH. Guys who didnt (RVD) didnt because they didnt have the ability.

[tomk]

Ok so you're a troll.

 

I get it.

 

Moving on.

[Loss]

Any potential Steiner had in WWE was basically killed by HHH insisting on doing his Twenty Minute Carry Job Of A Lesser Worker Just Like Ric Flair act at the '03 Royal Rumble.

[Jingus]

Are you a guy who, for example, won't play a great video game because you heard on Gamefaqs.com's forums that one of the programmers is kind of a dick?

 

I guess I'm just tired of the whole scene of wrestling fans who think they're on the inside because they read Meltzer or, worse, C&P Meltzer lites, and then, worse than that, they judge wrestling because of it.

 

There's also a case to be made that, even if the bad stuff you hear about is true, it's pretty nerdy to get indignant about backstage bullshit. Man, you're a subculture of a subculture of a subculture.

You keep making some sort of "you're just a smart mark you don't know" argument. I'm not. I spent five years on the indy scene primarily as a television commentator, but also as a ring announcer, manager, referee, and even had a few (bad) matches. I'm not some armchair quarterback talking shit about something I've never done.

 

No, I never made a living off it, and I never worked for anybody too important, but I've still got so many friends involved with wrestling that I DO have a pretty big interest in the condition of the business. And while I've never had a conversation with Orton that lasted longer than twenty seconds, I know other people who have known him, and the general consensus is that he's an egomaniacal prick.

 

Seriously, the 95% of the bad stuff you never hear about obviously must be much worse than the 5% that does manage to trickle down to you through a ridiculous game of "pass it on." To use the same example I just did, how much bad did you hear about Benoit? How many people has Randy Orton killed so far? On top of that, keep in mind that the 5% of bad stuff you DO hear about has been leaked to Meltzer or whomever by guys with agendas. On top of that, it gets spun, sometimes better, sometimes worse, by the "reporter" (Keller/Jericho, anyone?). With all that in mind, it's pretty dumb to judge anyone in wrestling based on the equivalent of overhearing a conversation being retold by somebody's senile granpa.

So you're saying that no story reported about the backstage workings of wrestling is ever to be trusted? Ever?

 

Just curious, what, if anything, do you enjoy about WWE? Because now we're back to possible masochism.

I'll watch any and all wrestling shows basically because I'm addicted to it. I'll most likely bitch about the bad parts later, but I've never seen a show that was so worthless and irredeemable that there wasn't one good moment in it. Whether it was a match, a promo, some jaw-dropping bump, or even just one of the workers winding up and delivering a perfect punch, every wrestling show has something, somewhere in it that made me glad I saw it.

[Jingus]

HHH I believe fits your Flair idea better. Booker, Benjamin, Steiner, Rock (to an extent) etc all benefitted working with HHH. Guys who didnt (RVD) didnt because they didnt have the ability.

Booker and Steiner benefitted?! They didn't see a main event again for YEARS after getting stepped on by HHH. Benjamin didn't see any miraculous new opportunities after that. And I'd say Rock gave HHH the rub, not the other way around.

 

Any potential Steiner had in WWE was basically killed by HHH insisting on doing his Twenty Minute Carry Job Of A Lesser Worker Just Like Ric Flair act at the '03 Royal Rumble.

I'm leery about conspiracy theories in general, but I wonder if HHH did that on purpose to make sure Steiner (who was traditionally known as a bleach-blonde badass heel with GIANT muscles) wasn't a threat to his spot. I mean, eight of the same suplexes in the same match?! Taking a juicehead like Steiner and making him go more than twenty minutes in his first big match in years? Ending it with a weaksauce DQ? This is the kind of thing that even your average TSM noob could tell you was a bad idea.

[Loss]

I think it was less conspiracy and more ego. HHH doesn't seem like the type who could ever accept that there may be wrestlers out there who he can not carry to good matches. Steiner would have been exposed eventually, but it may have taken a while for fans to catch on had he been doing quick 5-10 minute brawls. The Rumble drew an impressive buyrate on the strength of his return. He meant nothing when they did the rematch, and even WWE was moving away from him before the match even took place.

[tomk]

He’s a troll.

 

All comments are bull shit.

 

Flair was a guy who was known to put over his opponents. HHH is known as guy who builds matches around exposing them.

 

Booker was far more over before the series with HHH then he was after it. Took a while a brand change, several gimmick changes, a couple heel –face-heel turns and the introduction of a valet before Booker recovered from that series.

 

HHH means far more for being a Rock rival then Rock gained from being a HHH rival.

 

Benjamin was a meaningless series where HHH did nothing to make it mean any more than the TAKA match.

 

Steiner was far more over before the HHH series then he was after it.

 

The only guy who inarguably got over from working HHH was Batista.

Batista’s program was completely different than any other HHH one.

Batista worked Triple Threat guy who turns face on Shame Douglas.

He didn’t have to work in ring programs opposite HHH on way to title challenge.

Batista outsmarted and outwrestled HHH in three singles matches. Never had to work tag programs or any other program opposite HHH.

Batista then was immediately moved to Smackdown where he again wouldn’t need to work opposite HHH.

 

The guy who got over from working HHH is the guy who didn’t have to work in ring programs opposite him.

 

HHH isn’t Flair. Working programs opposite Helmsley doesn’t elevate people.

But JBigRed57 knows this and is just bullshitting to be a troll. As everything he says is really obvious b.s.

 

Michaels was wrestling like a heel in the 4/23 raw match. not all-out heel, but he was trying to get the crowd behind Cena...and it didn't work out.

The Raw match is the match where HBK got his win back. Match worked with Cena in control and HBK as underdog getting in desperation superkick for win. I guess in Bizzaro world, working as underdog is considered working heel and a good way to get crowd behind guy working “dominant” role.

 

Of course this example of HBK “trying to get crowd behind Cena” by working underdog was just a “non-title throwaway raw match” which no one cares about.

 

I also seem to recall Lashley spearing Cena to set up their match

Spearing Cena behind his back in lead up to Cena v Lashley is also an example of Lashley working heel in the match?

 

Lashley earned a bad backstage rap for complaining and wanting to turn heel. Lashley knew he was in a face vs. face program and didn’t think it helped anyone. He wanted to try working heel. He never did.

 

You can't make an argument that spearing Cena behind his back in pre match setup is example of working heel in the actual match. You might be able to argue that it's a heel move in setup. But even there I dont buy it.

 

I guess when HBK superkicked Goldberg in lead to Goldberg v HHH that was HBK turning heel.

I guess when HBK superkicked Kane behind his back on lead up to Kane v HHH that was HBK turning heel.

I guess when HBK superkicked Booker in build up to Booker v HHH that was HBK turning heel.

I guess when HBK superkicked Benoit in build to Benoit v HHH program that was HBK turning heel.

Cheap shotting a fellow face isn’t a heel turn.

Eddy was booed for refusing to hit his friend Batista with a chair.

The days of Tugboat turning on Hogan are long over.

Two faces who will do anything for belt (including hitting each other behind back) has been a face booking for almost a decade in the WWF.

 

Is there any reason to believe that the women and children who cheer him on, who he draws, who he sells merchandise to will continue to be drawn by Cena as a heel?

 

 

No, they would like the babyface, but he would still be a marketing machine and an excellent main event heel.

So he'd still be a marketing machine even though not to people who he currently markets to??? Does that make any sense?

 

Big Red is a troll.

[S.L.L.]

I care because the last thing wrestling needs right now is for Randy to pull one of his typical stunts after they inevitably put the belt on him sometime soon. The WWE couldn't afford a situation now like they had with RVD last year. Also, I think it's ironic that he's yet another example of watching the smarks go from despising someone to loving them for no real reason; the only difference between Randy '04 and Randy now is that weak koncussion-kick, and yet all over the message boards you've got people screaming for him to take the title off Cena (which even I think is a bad idea at this point).

If it's a big mistake for the WWE to put the Title on a potential troublemaker right now, their only course of action is to close up shop.

[Jingus]

There's a difference between a potential troublemaker and a proven one. But as the Bradshaw/Edge/Holly Rule seems to indicate, it's like the more li'l indiscretions you indulge in, the more the office likes you.

[S.L.L.]

There's a difference between a potential troublemaker and a proven one. But as the Bradshaw/Edge/Holly Rule seems to indicate, it's like the more li'l indiscretions you indulge in, the more the office likes you.

[Jingus]

Well then, if I missed your point, then why not explaining it instead of just posting a snarky jpeg?

[Guest KCook]

I think the point is that one of the many things Chris Benoit icing his kid should have taught us is that we know absolutely jack about these guys, and that pretending we do is asinine. Besides which, if you're booking the world title based on who's a legitimately good dude you'd probably end up giving it to Sterling James Kennan or something. Besides which even if you take all the Orton nonsense at face value he hasn't done anything notably bad. Besides which Orton is fucking awesome, the only thing that's caught my interest at all when I check out Raw for a bit now and then.

[S.L.L.]

Well then, if I missed your point, then why not explaining it instead of just posting a snarky jpeg?

There have been plenty of people - myself included - who have pointed out that pretty much all wrestlers are crazy. The very last page of this thread had a post by *FH* pointing out that while the internet was busy bitching and moaning about proven troublemaker Randy Orton wrecking hotel rooms, the mere potential troublemaker Chris Benoit was murdering his family. At this point, we all know better than to give wrestlers the benefit of the doubt in terms of their willingness and ability to perform immoral/illegal/potentially fatal shenanigans. If you haven't got the memo yet, I'm not sure what more I can do. If you're just going to sit there and be willfully obtuse about all of this, it's easier and more practical for me to post a snarky Photoshop than to rewrite a bunch of stuff that other people have already written and that you should really know by now. And here I am doing it anyway. I almost feel like I should be charging you for this. "For $5 a pop, S.L.L. will explain shit that is readily apparent to newborn babies to you."

 

EDIT: And Kevin Cook saves the day again. So pay him $5.

[Jingus]

all wrestlers are crazy

And all smart marks are virgins who live in their parents' basement, right. All Middle Easterners want to kill you for being an infidel. Why apply such massive, sweeping generalities to large groups of people?

 

At this point, we all know better than to give wrestlers the benefit of the doubt in terms of their willingness and ability to perform immoral/illegal/potentially fatal shenanigans.

So, should we not give a benefit of the doubt to postal workers? Or congressmen? Or those quiet, unassuming nice people who it seems always turn out to be serial killers? I'm not saying that wrestlers are angels, obviously not. But to turn around what was said to me earlier, why do you still watch & pay attention to a business if it's entirely populated by maniacs?

 

My basic point is, Orton has repeatedly shown that he seemingly can't control his actions. Many of the wrestlers have dirty backstage secrets, but many of Orton's manage to make their way to the public arena. And he KEEPS doing fucked-up shit, no matter how many times they make him go sit in the corner. I don't know why they keep pushing him back to the main event; when RVD got popped, they took both belts off him ASAP and he never got near the main event again.

[Guest KCook]

What "fucked-up shit" has he done, exactly? If you take every rumor at face value, he has:

 

* taken steroids

* smoked pot backstage

* sexually harrassed women

* acted like an egomaniac

 

If anything, it seems to me that all the suspensions have been completely disproportionate to anything he's even alleged to have done by ShreikingNinnySmark247365.com. This is a company full of wife beaters, people who cover up murders, and reptiles like Dean Malenko and Chavo Guerrero, and you really think the guy who smokes pot is the problem?

[Bix]

all wrestlers are crazy

And all smart marks are virgins who live in their parents' basement, right. All Middle Easterners want to kill you for being an infidel. Why apply such massive, sweeping generalities to large groups of people?

You basically have to have at least tiny bit of craziness in you to become a wrestler, take the punishment, go on the road, etc. A lot of wrestlers are much, much more crazy than that. Bobby Eaton had to be at least a little crazy to be a wrestler (and take the bumps that he did), but otherwise, not that crazy. Still somewhat crazy, though.

 

Also, Kevin: As long as you're naming them, you forgot Rey Mysterio.

[Jingus]

So, it's difficult for you to understand that a guy who's got a known history of having problems is more likely to cause future trouble than a guy who doesn't?

[Bix]

So, it's difficult for you to understand that a guy who's got a known history of having problems is more likely to cause future trouble than a guy who doesn't?

No, I think he means that most wrestlers are awful people, and as far as awful behavior goes, Orton's is pretty mundane. That and small shit that could actually be warning signs (look at all of the interviews with hindsight about Benoit) would never make the WON.

[Marty]

Thinking about all the news Orton has been involved in reminds me of a comment Loss made several years ago during the TSM days about HHH and the news that was reported about him. When HHH was heel, the "HHH is holding so-and-so down" was HEAVILY reported. However, there was a time (I believe late '03/early '04 but I could be wrong) where the company was somewhat leaning towards turning HHH face. The news you heard then was how HHH spent hours in the tape room studying Flair, Bockwinkel, etc. (the stuff the so-called internet fanbase loves to hear about)

 

To some extent, I think this applies to Orton. Whether the stuff reported is accurate or not, it helps that Orton is heel. On top of that, a lot of the stuff is simply reported through Meltzer, Keller, etc. This is different from RVD, whose arrest got into the public papers (plus, one of your top babyfaces being arrested is never good). *FH* mentioned hidden agendas in news getting out, and it makes me wonder if those with hidden agendas have more power than we may think, and are making sure certain news gets filtered in order for certain reactions (even if those on the internet might still make up 5% of the total fanbase, tops).

 

I think this is a big reason why we never heard stuff about Benoit until after the murders. Dude was an upper-tier babyface from late '02 to the present, and any aggressive nature reported wouldn't exactly blend well with his babyface character (especially since Benoit's character lightened up a little from '04 to the present; you saw him smile to the crowd more, play to the crowd, etc.). Throwing guys out of locker rooms for "misbehaving" or forcing other wrestlers to do hindu squats isn't the worst thing in the world, but it doesn't mix with clean-cut, hard-working, smiling Chris Benoit we saw on TV the past 4 and a half years or so.

[Guest KCook]

I'm not seeing how the guy has had any problems by company standards, nor do I see why I would be expected to care if he's had any problems or is likely to cause problems. This is a company whose reaction to a dude murdering his wife and child is to put on a laudatory three-hour tribute show. I'm assuming that as long as Orton doesn't take up arms against the U.S. in Anbar or convince China to dump its foreign reserves he's perfectly fine.

 

Seriously, look at the champions they've had recently. What exactly is Orton likely to do that would hold a candle compared to Cena's performance on Larry King, Batista opening stockholders to massive lawsuits by getting women who won't sleep with him fired, Khali killing someone, Lashley exploding from steroid use, Edge collapsing in a pile of dust and metal rods from steroid use, etc.?

[S.L.L.]

So, it's difficult for you to understand that a guy who's got a known history of having problems is more likely to cause future trouble than a guy who doesn't?

You would know a thing or two about having difficulty understanding things, wouldn't you? Because this has all been laid out plain as day to you, and you're still sitting there with your eyes shut and your fingers jammed in your ears screaming as loud as you can to drown out the voice in the back of your head trying to tell you that there are really, really, really big problems in wrestling right now, and none of them involve Randy Orton smoking a joint.

[Jingus]

And where did I say wrestling and wrestlers don't have problems? Stop putting words in my mouth. It seems to be a favorite activity of yours.

 

Cena's performance on Larry King,

Which is worse than trashing a hotel room, how?

 

Batista opening stockholders to massive lawsuits by getting women who won't sleep with him fired

Which is worse than Randy calling them cunts and shitting in their bags until they quit, how?

 

Khali killing someone,

Oh, Randy's got nothin' on that. But every time I've brought THAT one up on a message board, I get shouted down by people saying it doesn't matter, it wasn't his fault, whatever.

 

Lashley exploding from steroid use

Rotator cuff tear isn't commonly thought to be a steroid-caused injury. And Lashley doing drugs in private is worse than Randy doing drugs in public, how?

 

Edge collapsing in a pile of dust and metal rods from steroid use, etc.?

Why not go with the obvious "Edge sleeping with other people's wives"?

 

 

Of COURSE wrestling is filled with a bunch of nasty, maladjusted people. I just don't understand why Orton is thought to be no worse than average, when he's had many more known difficulties than the majority of others.

[Bix]

Of COURSE wrestling is filled with a bunch of nasty, maladjusted people. I just don't understand why Orton is thought to be no worse than average, when he's had many more known difficulties than the majority of others.

If WWE was willing to publish in one of their own books that the Hardys were punished for not drinking then throwing beer cans at road signs and that JBL molested Edge, imagine the shit that we will never, ever hear about.

[S.L.L.]

Of COURSE wrestling is filled with a bunch of nasty, maladjusted people. I just don't understand why Orton is thought to be no worse than average, when he's had many more known difficulties than the majority of others.

If WWE was willing to publish in one of their own books that the Hardys were punished for not drinking then throwing beer cans at road signs and that JBL molested Edge, imagine the shit that we will never, ever hear about.

 

Forget it, Bix. It's Jingustown.

[Cox]

Cena's performance on Larry King,

Which is worse than trashing a hotel room, how?

What's worse, costing some Mariott in Italy a few hundred Euros, or lying to the American public about wrestling's drug problem? Honestly, I'm a fan of his work, but the whole Benoit situation really creeped me out on Cena, and how easily he was able to just go out there and lie.

 

Batista opening stockholders to massive lawsuits by getting women who won't sleep with him fired

Which is worse than Randy calling them cunts and shitting in their bags until they quit, how?

Both leave WWE open for litigation from former employees. I wouldn't call one worse than the other.

 

Khali killing someone,

Oh, Randy's got nothin' on that. But every time I've brought THAT one up on a message board, I get shouted down by people saying it doesn't matter, it wasn't his fault, whatever.

It wasn't Khali's fault, but the way the APW school went out of their way for a while to hide the fact that it was Khali who killed him was pretty typical scummy wrestling business.

 

Lashley exploding from steroid use

Rotator cuff tear isn't commonly thought to be a steroid-caused injury. And Lashley doing drugs in private is worse than Randy doing drugs in public, how?

If you think that's the first time a WWE wrestler has openly smoked pot in the locker room...hell, it wasn't even a Wellness violation.