WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year

[Loss]

I have never understood the concept of "there is more money in the chase" when nearly every single successful babyface wrestler of the past 40 years was almost always the champ (from Bruno all the way to Cena, with Hogan, Austin, and Rock in between), and when so many babyface wrestlers who constantly chased the belt without winning it (Sting, Luger, etc.) were never really draws when they did win the belt, because they were seen as #2 guys from constantly chasing the champ, instead of top guys for being the champ. There's just so much evidence to support that fans pay to see their favorite wrestlers hold onto the title against strong heel challengers for the "there's always more money in the chase" theory to hold any water.

The concept behind money in the chase is not actually that the money is in the chase. It seems to be more that the money is in the buildup. Meaning they could have done Austin/Vince in a cage match on PPV at the show right after Wrestlemania XIV, but that was rushing it, when they could still milk the Austin/Vince showdown for so much more. So, "the chase" is all the stuff that happened throughout the rest of the year that finally led to an Austin/Vince encounter in February of 1999. They made far more money off of the final encounter and all the PPVs before it than they would have had they just done it right away.

 

I don't know that "the chase" really works in modern booking, because (a) fans are so much less patient and ( there's a real lack of talent depth. Ideally, in 1999, WCW could have had Goldberg go after the world title all year, all while new opposition was being thrown his way constantly -- Hall, Nash, Savage, Luger, Sting, Bret, DDP, Steiner, etc. Had those guys been as over as they should have been considering how hard they were pushed, Goldberg headlining shows versus all of them all year would have drawn huge until he finally got his hands on Hogan at Starrcade and got the belt back. So instead of one big show, you have 12 big shows.

 

The problem is it's a bit idealistic. Whereas years ago, you had guys like Savage and Piper who were draws in their own right and could prolong Hogan feud payoffs, now you have promotions full of Arn Anderson types -- they're liked, they get a reaction, but everyone knows they're setup guys and that they have a specific role.

 

So, the concept isn't a bad one, but the talent isn't there to pull it off, and it's probably obsolete in 2007.

[Loss]

Great post, Loss...I actually agree too...but dont you think they need to do SOMETHING about this... I mean, I understand he is drawing money from all angles, but it does seem to turn away a lot of viewers. Maybe it isnt showing up in the numbers right now, but I think it might have an effect on it long term. I mean, how long can you book a guy to sell for 90% of a match, then put together the same cmeback and take the win? Hes good on the mic, but he isnt the Rock, and while hes good in the ring and can carry, he isnt as good as Austin... and he doesnt really have a defined gimmick to get behind. It just feels like theyre trying too hard to make him into the next Hogan/Austin/Rock hybrid.

 

Just saying, it feels kind of stale to me and a lot of fans right now...and I WANT to like Cena again.

Right now, all of his challengers are pretty indistinguishable. I think he needs a storyline that really supercedes a bumbling heel who's never been consistently pushed winning matches for three weeks and suddenly being the number one contender. I think back to JYD (who's a similar babyface to Cena) getting blinded and missing the birth of his first child as a result, and waging war on the Freebirds and drawing huge. That's the kind of storylines Cena needs to draw on PPV -- really serious, personal stuff with kind of a powder keg feel behind it.

[sek69]

1. If you want to talk about the difference in exposure between Cena and Hogan, the difference in exposure between the modern day weekly TV champ and the NWA touring heel champ is vastly bigger, and makes a vastly bigger difference. It's one thing when Flair or Funk or Thesz shows up to your town a couple times a year, acts like a dick, gets beat on by the local face, but squeaks out a win or a draw or gets DQ'd and runs away. It's another thing when the champ is a heel on TV every week, always pulling out the win, while the faces never get a break and, on the rare instances they do, get it yanked away from them just as quick.

 

Eric Bischoff coming out and overturning practically every win a WCW guy would get against the nWo would seem to be the obvious example of this. There's a reason that angle never got a proper blowoff, and part of it (other than the egos and politics of course) was that the WCW guys were made to look like complete chumps to the point where actually booking them to win was near impossible.

[sek69]

Also, Cena works best when against a strong heel (Edge, Umaga, the new Evil Head-Punting Orton) which is something the WWE is kind of lacking. It's only going to be worse when HHH, who is a strong natural heel, has to play babyface for a few months after his return.

 

It's like the difference between Hulk Hogan vs King Kong Bundy and Hulk Hogan vs say, Nikolai Volkoff.

[S.L.L.]

1. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, why are house show ticket sales and merchandise sales so high up?

Ask ANYBODY and they will tell you they are sick of Cena,

 

Jingus is right. I really don't buy that this is the case. Simply stating it as common sense doesn't make it so.

 

besides perhaps kids and women (who are the market that buys the merch). THAT is not the demographic you want to ONLY appeal to.

 

Well, it would be nice to appeal to everyone, but I wouldn't dismiss the value of kids and female customers. You could do a lot worse than have kids as your target audience. It's not like it's a strategy that hasn't payed off a million times in the past...and realistically, is paying off now.

 

A babyface should be cheered, not booed.

 

He is cheered. You put him up against another face in a match designed to split the crowd, he gets booed. You put him up against an honest-to-God heel, everyone cheers him. I'm not seeing the problem other than him being in too many programs against faces.

 

With the way hes being booked (superhuman face, overcomes every odd, always wins, etc), it will ultimately fail long term.

Why? It's worked since the dawn of man. It's not arbitrarily stopping now.

 

2. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, how is taking the belt off of him and having him chase the title supposed to fix that? He'll be on TV just as much...if not more.

He IS overexposed. I firmly believe the problem will increase if hes continually pushed into the spotlight. Do you not think that, say, Orton wins the belt, has a decent reign, then Cena eventually comes back and chases the belt, would make for a bigger deal than the redundant 'Cena retains' you see all over PPV results?

No, and phrasing it as a rhetorical question doesn't make it so.

 

And you kind of dodged the question I posed there. If Cena is overexposed, how does having him chase the belt instead of hold it change that?

 

Good points but the fact remains, Cena is getting booed ALOT now. When Rock was booed as a face, they turned him into a heel...and look what that did for him.

 

It got us three months worth of Hollywood Rock. I mean, I loved Hollywood Rock, but let's not act like it was some kind of Earth-shattering maneuver that saved his wrestling career. Not to mention that was the spring of 2003, and he was first starting to get booed against Austin early in 2001, so it's not like they were all over that, either.

 

They, for SOME reason, insist on keeping Cena as a face when he could so easily turn heel given the reactions he gets and be better off. He was a great heel when he was US champion, and I'd imagine he could pull it off even better now with the crowd heat he gets.

 

You can write as many words in all-caps as you want, their reason for keeping him face isn't that far-fetched: he's making them a bunch of money, way more than anybody since that Rock guy you mentioned went to Hollywood and didn't come back. He could pull off being a heel very well, but I could pull off stripping naked, dousing myself in ketchup, and running down my street warning people of the impending alien invasion. That doesn't mean I actually SHOULD do it.

 

I'm not blaming Cena, they are just burning through all of their options with him as a lead face by keeping him as the unbeatable ace. To me, it doesnt work with all the tv exposure.

It's working. Your personal opinion on the matter doesn't really change that.

 

Also, out of curiousity, why do you think the PPV buyrates are down (since you dont think its Cena)?

What Bix said. People just aren't going to buy a PPV every five seconds at several million dollars a pop, even if it's a heel John Cena chasing the title held by Jesus Christ.

[kjh]

It got us three months worth of Hollywood Rock. I mean, I loved Hollywood Rock, but let's not act like it was some kind of Earth-shattering maneuver that saved his wrestling career.

From a business standpoint Hollywood Rock at the time was really a bit of a disappointment. If I recall correctly all three PPV shows he headlined during that run drew disappointing numbers.

 

Which brings me to another point. The decline in PPV business is a trend that has been going on for years, really since Austin turned heel at WrestleMania 17. There has been some short term boosts when a big star returns like Hulk Hogan or they luck into a hot feud like Batista vs Hunter, but overall the trend for an average PPV has been downward ever since then. I think it is pretty clear that a lot of people who used to buy every PPV now pick and choose, which is why the only PPVs that draw big numbers tend to be the big four (WrestleMania, SummerSlam, Survivor Series and Royal Rumble) and gimmick match blow offs to major feuds. I don't think that would change if Cena was chasing the title this summer instead of holding it. Hell, they got rid of brand only PPVs this years, so their B shows had more star power and it did nothing to stop the rot.

[Jingus]

It's paid off in creating a bonafide new top guy (not a cup of coffee type like the Jerichos, Benoits and Rob Van Dams before him)

Then again, Cena has been booked as the unstoppable superman for so long that it's unprecedented in recent wrestling history. You have to go back to Hogan to find someone who lost fewer matches. I know it's just a fantasy booking scenario, but I find it interesting to wonder what might've happened if the WWE had put that insane god push ("he's gonna be the top guy and be popular whether the fans like it or not!") behind a different wrestler. If they'd ever had one ounce of confidence in Jericho especially, things might've turned out different.

 

The decline in PPV business is a trend that has been going on for years, really since Austin turned heel at WrestleMania 17.

Or, more importantly I think, since WCW and ECW both went out of business.

[Bix]

It's paid off in creating a bonafide new top guy (not a cup of coffee type like the Jerichos, Benoits and Rob Van Dams before him)

Then again, Cena has been booked as the unstoppable superman for so long that it's unprecedented in recent wrestling history. You have to go back to Hogan to find someone who lost fewer matches.

[Cox]

Then again, Cena has been booked as the unstoppable superman for so long that it's unprecedented in recent wrestling history. You have to go back to Hogan to find someone who lost fewer matches.

This past summer alone he's put over Carlito and Khali. He lost that ridiculously long match to Michaels back in April in England. He lost to Edge lots of times last year, including twice on PPV. He put over RVD at One Night Stand. Really, the problem with Cena is that he doesn't do jobs? He hasn't lost a title match in almost a year, but Cena has lost a lot of TV matches for a guy who is supposedly being protected.

[kjh]

I don't think Cena is any more protected in the booking than Batista (at least before he fell out of favour somewhat after the Booker T fight), Triple H or Undertaker, though him dominating the WWE title for so long gives that impression. Hell, I don't think any of the others I mentioned would job to Carlito like he did.

[S.L.L.]

It's paid off in creating a bonafide new top guy (not a cup of coffee type like the Jerichos, Benoits and Rob Van Dams before him)

Then again, Cena has been booked as the unstoppable superman for so long that it's unprecedented in recent wrestling history. You have to go back to Hogan to find someone who lost fewer matches.

You know, I could just hand you those straws if you want.

[Bix]

Then again, Cena has been booked as the unstoppable superman for so long that it's unprecedented in recent wrestling history. You have to go back to Hogan to find someone who lost fewer matches.

This past summer alone he's put over Carlito and Khali. He lost that ridiculously long match to Michaels back in April in England. He lost to Edge lots of times last year, including twice on PPV. He put over RVD at One Night Stand. Really, the problem with Cena is that he doesn't do jobs? He hasn't lost a title match in almost a year, but Cena has lost a lot of TV matches for a guy who is supposedly being protected.

 

That too.

[Jingus]

It's not just about jobs, it's about his entire push. For over two years now, he's been pushed as THE top guy. No other top face has gotten pushed that long and that hard in recent memory except Austin. Between injuries, heel turns, going away to make a movie, politics, or whatever, the WWE has rarely ever leaned so hard on one guy as their top draw. No matter who the other champion on Smackdown was at the time, it's been the WWE's general position that Cena is their #1 star with no real competition. Hell, since HBK and HHH went down with injury, it was really hard to say exactly who the next-highest babyface on the Raw roster was. I just wonder how the exact same type of push would work if you just plugged a different guy into that spot.

[S.L.L.]

It's not just about jobs, it's about his entire push. For over two years now, he's been pushed as THE top guy. No other top face has gotten pushed that long and that hard in recent memory except Austin. Between injuries, heel turns, going away to make a movie, politics, or whatever, the WWE has rarely ever leaned so hard on one guy as their top draw. No matter who the other champion on Smackdown was at the time, it's been the WWE's general position that Cena is their #1 star with no real competition. Hell, since HBK and HHH went down with injury, it was really hard to say exactly who the next-highest babyface on the Raw roster was. I just wonder how the exact same type of push would work if you just plugged a different guy into that spot.

And?

[Jingus]

And, do you have a goddamn thing to add to this discussion besides pointless smartass comments?

[S.L.L.]

And, do you have a goddamn thing to add to this discussion besides pointless smartass comments?

I have a history of long-windedness on the internet, so every now and then I try to make a point succinct. Unfortunately, the point of my smartass comment maybe needed further expansion.

 

Response to Jingus' Post: Take 2

 

And your point is?

[Jingus]

I'm just commenting on how unusual Cena's push is. Not saying a word about the guy himself. Just how odd it is for any wrestling company in this fast-paced, swervapalooza, post-Attitude wrestling zeitgeist to go for two years straight without changing the one guy as their figurehead. Admittedly, a lot of that might be due to the fact that Cena hasn't ever suffered some serious injury to put him on the shelf. In fact, the WWE would be in an awfully tight spot if John blew his knee out or something, since they've put so many eggs squarely in one basket.

[Loss]

Isn't slowing down the booking and putting more emphasis on championship runs what everyone has been wanting them to do for years?

[Tim Evans]

They have HHH coming back as a babyface. They could run with the HHH vs Vince's other kid feud for months. This is why John Cena is so much like Mistico right now. Mistico is injured right now and CMLL is fucked. God forbid the same thing happened to Cena.

[Loss]

But what should WWE do about it? Take the belt off of Cena in case he gets injured? Stop pushing people because they may not always be healthy?

 

Injuries are always going to happen and they're never going to come at a good time. It's just one of those unfortunate things that makes booking wrestling that much harder, I'm sure.

 

Also, it should be noted that HHH hasn't had a hot feud in over two years, when he was feuding with Batista. Before that, he hadn't had a hot feud since before he tore his quad. I don't see HHH's comeback making much difference.

[S.L.L.]

I'm just commenting on how unusual Cena's push is.

 

I'm the biggest star in wrestling history! How do these dudes keep forgetting I exist, brother?

 

Just how odd it is for any wrestling company in this fast-paced, swervapalooza, post-Attitude wrestling zeitgeist to go for two years straight without changing the one guy as their figurehead.

 

 

Stone Cold's lookin' at his watch, and it looks like he was the top face in the WWF for two years straight, and probably would've been longer if he didn't get hurt and the dumbasses in charge didn't turn him heel when he came back. After that, they had a couple years where the WWF/E was basically the Triple H show. What Stone Cold wants to know from you is when the WWF/E has ever focused on one guy as the center of the promotion for less than two years?

 

Isn't slowing down the booking and putting more emphasis on championship runs what everyone has been wanting them to do for years?

What people want is a reason to complain. And luckily for them, they always have one, even if they have to make it up.

[Jingus]

What Stone Cold wants to know from you is when the WWF/E has ever focused on one guy as the center of the promotion for less than two years?

What about from 2001-2005? They went Rock, Austin, Angle, more Austin, Jericho, HHH, Hogan, more Rock, Brock, more HHH, Goldberg, more Brock, more HHH, Eddie/Benoit, Bradshaw, Orton, more HHH, Batista, and then finally settled on Cena and have mostly stayed there ever since.

[Guest Nathan]

What Stone Cold wants to know from you is when the WWF/E has ever focused on one guy as the center of the promotion for less than two years?

What about from 2001-2005? They went Rock, Austin, Angle, more Austin, Jericho, HHH, Hogan, more Rock, Brock, more HHH, Goldberg, more Brock, more HHH, Eddie/Benoit, Bradshaw, Orton, more HHH, Batista, and then finally settled on Cena and have mostly stayed there ever since.

 

Just because they held world titles doesn't mean they were the centerpiece of the promotion. Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Orton, JBL, Goldberg, and Hogan were the "top stars" of that time? I think it's quite obvious that Austin was reclaiming his top spot after returning from injury. Once he left, the spot was given to HHH and they began grooming Lesnar. No one else on that list was ever the top star in the promotion. One could certainly make an argument for Rock, but he was clearly just the Lashley to Austin's Cena before leaving for Hollywood.

[Tim Evans]

DX vs Mcmahons wasn't a hot feud? Sure it sucked but it was over with the marks. Was HHH/Cena after the Batista feud?

[Guest JBigred57]

Great post, Loss...I actually agree too...but dont you think they need to do SOMETHING about this... I mean, I understand he is drawing money from all angles, but it does seem to turn away a lot of viewers. Maybe it isnt showing up in the numbers right now, but I think it might have an effect on it long term. I mean, how long can you book a guy to sell for 90% of a match, then put together the same cmeback and take the win? Hes good on the mic, but he isnt the Rock, and while hes good in the ring and can carry, he isnt as good as Austin... and he doesnt really have a defined gimmick to get behind. It just feels like theyre trying too hard to make him into the next Hogan/Austin/Rock hybrid.

 

Just saying, it feels kind of stale to me and a lot of fans right now...and I WANT to like Cena again.

Right now, all of his challengers are pretty indistinguishable. I think he needs a storyline that really supercedes a bumbling heel who's never been consistently pushed winning matches for three weeks and suddenly being the number one contender. I think back to JYD (who's a similar babyface to Cena) getting blinded and missing the birth of his first child as a result, and waging war on the Freebirds and drawing huge. That's the kind of storylines Cena needs to draw on PPV -- really serious, personal stuff with kind of a powder keg feel behind it.

 

Great ideas, but you really don't think HHH could be the key over babyface that would make it easy to turn Cena heel? Why? HHH is a ready draw, and everyone is looking forward to his babyface run. Seems like a pretty likely time to turn Cena heel with HHH as top face.

 

Jingus is right. I really don't buy that this is the case. Simply stating it as common sense doesn't make it so.

I meant anybody off this message board. go to any wrestling event, ask any mature male and they will tell you that they hate him. I'm not exaggerating.

 

Point blank, he is getting heel heat from MOST people right now, yet he is face. Isnt that a sign that something needs to be changed?

 

Well, it would be nice to appeal to everyone, but I wouldn't dismiss the value of kids and female customers. You could do a lot worse than have kids as your target audience. It's not like it's a strategy that hasn't payed off a million times in the past...and realistically, is paying off now.

More adults watch the WWE than kids. Kids and women are great, but thats not the target audience.

 

He is cheered. You put him up against another face in a match designed to split the crowd, he gets booed. You put him up against an honest-to-God heel, everyone cheers him. I'm not seeing the problem other than him being in too many programs against faces.

Hes booed against faces why? Michaels and Lashley were subtle heels in the feuds/matches with Cena, and Cena was still booed, so its not a matter of a split crowd... the face opponents TRY to get him face reactions, BUT it doesnt work.

 

Why? It's worked since the dawn of man. It's not arbitrarily stopping now.

Because it gets redundant and stale. especially since the Austin 3:16 era. People want a little flavor in their top guys in modern age pro wrestling. Not some average Joe marine dude who wins match, after match, after match...

 

No, and phrasing it as a rhetorical question doesn't make it so.

 

And you kind of dodged the question I posed there. If Cena is overexposed, how does having him chase the belt instead of hold it change that?

Because he wouldnt be THE guy with the belt...the guy who always wins his title matches, making all of his matches by the numbers predictable. Putting the belt on a heel would freshin things up, and make for Cenas big rematch and title win seem fresh and interesting...might even warrant less booing if they gave the fans a break from Cena.

 

 

It got us three months worth of Hollywood Rock. I mean, I loved Hollywood Rock, but let's not act like it was some kind of Earth-shattering maneuver that saved his wrestling career. Not to mention that was the spring of 2003, and he was first starting to get booed against Austin early in 2001, so it's not like they were all over that, either.

I was refering to 97, when he was booed as a green babyface, then they turned him heel and he became a mega star.

 

 

You can write as many words in all-caps as you want, their reason for keeping him face isn't that far-fetched: he's making them a bunch of money, way more than anybody since that Rock guy you mentioned went to Hollywood and didn't come back. He could pull off being a heel very well, but I could pull off stripping naked, dousing myself in ketchup, and running down my street warning people of the impending alien invasion. That doesn't mean I actually SHOULD do it.

I don't understand why. HHH is a money drawing wrestler, he could easily fill Cenas shoes as top face as Cena went and turned heel for something really fresh and exciting for his career.

 

It's working. Your personal opinion on the matter doesn't really change that.

It's working NOW,but there won't be any credible heels after Cena plows through them all in the future.

 

What Bix said. People just aren't going to buy a PPV every five seconds at several million dollars a pop, even if it's a heel John Cena chasing the title held by Jesus Christ.

I believe the main event is directly assiocated with the success of a company. He carries the weight of the company. No one pays to see the midcard guys, so if the numbers are down, regardless of poor booking, the main guy is at fault. Just my opinion.