WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year

[Bix]

For me it's the "sweaty" criticism, which is completely ridiculous in the first place and started after the race-baiting "stank" promos.

[Jingus]

So I say Mark Henry is sloppy, which he is, I remember him almost killing someone with a mistimed powerslam a few weeks ago, and suddenly I'm a racist? Fuck this, my instinct was right the first time, I'm outta this childish argument.

[MikeCampbell]

I'd definitely not call Khali fat. He's the only wrestler over 7-feet tall that I've seen who looks in half-decent shape.

[Dylan Waco]

So I say Mark Henry is sloppy, which he is, I remember him almost killing someone with a mistimed powerslam a few weeks ago, and suddenly I'm a racist? Fuck this, my instinct was right the first time, I'm outta this childish argument.

You were arguing with me, and I didn't call you a racist

[S.L.L.]

So I say Mark Henry is sloppy, which he is, I remember him almost killing someone with a mistimed powerslam a few weeks ago, and suddenly I'm a racist? Fuck this, my instinct was right the first time, I'm outta this childish argument.

A. When was this?

 

B. The second time you say "I'm leaving this argument", it no longer has any meaning.

[Mad Dog]

I also wanted to throw out there that New Japan really deserves a little more credit for this year. They're booking has been the best it's been since possibly the late 90s. They aren't doing anything counter-productive, they rebuilt Yuji Nagata into a credible champion, etc. It seems they finally have their shit together and have for awhile now.

[Guest JBigred57]

Can we change that Cena is wrestler of the year now? buyrates have been DOWN since wrestlemania, considerably. The fans are SICK of Cena with the belt and ontop.

[Guest JBigred57]

Double post.

[Loss]

Well, house show attendance is still strong and per head merchandise sales are at like $13.00, which is huge. There is a problem, but I don't think it's Cena.

[Guest JBigred57]

The person who is ontop is always responsible.

[Loss]

No.

 

I think the problem is that they use too much comedy to build feuds, so no one really has any desire to see the match by the time it happens. People may be tired of Cena making gay jokes and doing unfunny comedy, but that doesn't mean they're tired of Cena himself, or else everything would be down. It just means he's not being booked properly and they put him in silly feuds that don't invest people. When they do put aside the crap, a match like Cena/Khali drew well on PPV because it was built up well.

 

He's probably losing the belt in a few weeks anyway, and if anything, I'd think things will drop off with Orton in that role. Cena sort of needs to be champ to sale merchandise also, otherwise "The Champ Is Here" and toy spinner belts are a bit of a hard sell.

 

If it was as simple as fans being tired of Cena, house shows would be down also, and kids/women wouldn't be coming to see him, and that hasn't slowed at all.

 

Yes, some fans are tired of him, but they're outnumbered by ticket buyers, and buying a ticket to show up and boo John Cena means they are paying to see Cena lose, which means he's over, which means people aren't tired of him.

[Bix]

There's also the fact that 16 PPVs in a year at $40 each was probably the breaking point for a LOT of people buying the amount of PPVs they used to.

[sek69]

If you're going to say Cena isn't Wrestler of the Year, then who is?

[Guest JBigred57]

No one person stands out.

 

My point is Cena AS CHAMPION is killing buyrates. All of my friends who'm are regular viewers of WWE dont order some of the PPVs that he main events, because they know he will win. its booking that has killed the crowd and anticipation for title matches long term.

 

Theres more money in Cena chasing the title than holding onto it.

[S.L.L.]

My point is Cena AS CHAMPION is killing buyrates. All of my friends who'm are regular viewers of WWE dont order some of the PPVs that he main events, because they know he will win. its booking that has killed the crowd and anticipation for title matches long term.

 

Theres more money in Cena chasing the title than holding onto it.

 

"That doesn't work for me, brother!"

[Cox]

I have never understood the concept of "there is more money in the chase" when nearly every single successful babyface wrestler of the past 40 years was almost always the champ (from Bruno all the way to Cena, with Hogan, Austin, and Rock in between), and when so many babyface wrestlers who constantly chased the belt without winning it (Sting, Luger, etc.) were never really draws when they did win the belt, because they were seen as #2 guys from constantly chasing the champ, instead of top guys for being the champ. There's just so much evidence to support that fans pay to see their favorite wrestlers hold onto the title against strong heel challengers for the "there's always more money in the chase" theory to hold any water.

[Guest JBigred57]

Hogan held the belt in an era with far less television exposure, so it didn't become stale as quickly as it would in 2007 (like Cena). I don't recall Hogan getting the "X-Pac heat" that Cena recieves, because it was a different era.

 

Rock and Austin never had year-long title reigns like Cena is having right now, and were far bigger draws than Cena. Those two also switched from heel to face more often to remain fresh and interesting. THATS how a modern day face champion HAS to be booked, otherwise you're risking getting stale.

 

and Cox, look no further than Ric Flair.

[Tim Evans]

If you're going to say Cena isn't Wrestler of the Year, then who is?

 

If the world was right, This man would be Wrestler of the year.

[S.L.L.]

Hogan held the belt in an era with far less television exposure, so it didn't become stale as quickly as it would in 2007 (like Cena). I don't recall Hogan getting the "X-Pac heat" that Cena recieves, because it was a different era.

1. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, why are house show ticket sales and merchandise sales so high up?

 

2. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, how is taking the belt off of him and having him chase the title supposed to fix that? He'll be on TV just as much...if not more.

 

3. Does it really matter if he's getting X-Pac heat (when facing other faces or heels that try to undercut him; he wasn't drawing X-Pac heat against Umaga or Khali) when people are still paying to see him? If they chose to register their dislike for him by not showing up to his matches, that would be one thing. But that's not happening.

 

Rock and Austin never had year-long title reigns like Cena is having right now, and were far bigger draws than Cena. Those two also switched from heel to face more often to remain fresh and interesting. THATS how a modern day face champion HAS to be booked, otherwise you're risking getting stale.

1. Austin has been connected to WWE in some manner for eleven years. He's spent just under two years of that time as a heel. He spent about half a year of that time actually getting booed. He wasn't exactly Lex Luger.

 

2. Incidentally, Lex Luger would like to inform you that frequent turns usually don't make fans more interested in you.

 

3. After the blue chipper stuff, Rock had about six years of connection to WWE. He spent about a year of that as a heel who actually got booed, spent a little under a year as a heel who got cheered, three years as a face who got cheered all the time, and a year as a face who often got cheered, but also was frequently booed against other faces as certain cool heels....you know, like John Cena. My point being that Rock's periods of immense popularity didn't seem to have any real connection to his face/heel status.

 

4. I have no concrete evidence of this, but something tells me the popularity of Austin and Rock had very, very little to do with the length of their title reigns.

 

and Cox, look no further than Ric Flair.

1. If you want to talk about the difference in exposure between Cena and Hogan, the difference in exposure between the modern day weekly TV champ and the NWA touring heel champ is vastly bigger, and makes a vastly bigger difference. It's one thing when Flair or Funk or Thesz shows up to your town a couple times a year, acts like a dick, gets beat on by the local face, but squeaks out a win or a draw or gets DQ'd and runs away. It's another thing when the champ is a heel on TV every week, always pulling out the win, while the faces never get a break and, on the rare instances they do, get it yanked away from them just as quick.

 

2. Unless of course you're talking about Flair post-Crockett going national, which is ridiculous because he was so thoroughly outdrawn by Hogan. Cox need look no further than Ric Flair for someone who proves him right.

[Guest JBigred57]

1. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, why are house show ticket sales and merchandise sales so high up?

Ask ANYBODY and they will tell you they are sick of Cena, besides perhaps kids and women (who are the market that buys the merch). THAT is not the demographic you want to ONLY appeal to. A babyface should be cheered, not booed. With the way hes being booked (superhuman face, overcomes every odd, always wins, etc), it will ultimately fail long term.

 

2. If the problem is Cena being overexposed, how is taking the belt off of him and having him chase the title supposed to fix that? He'll be on TV just as much...if not more.

He IS overexposed. I firmly believe the problem will increase if hes continually pushed into the spotlight. Do you not think that, say, Orton wins the belt, has a decent reign, then Cena eventually comes back and chases the belt, would make for a bigger deal than the redundant 'Cena retains' you see all over PPV results?

 

3. Does it really matter if he's getting X-Pac heat (when facing other faces or heels that try to undercut him; he wasn't drawing X-Pac heat against Umaga or Khali) when people are still paying to see him? If they chose to register their dislike for him by not showing up to his matches, that would be one thing. But that's not happening.

 

 

1. Austin has been connected to WWE in some manner for eleven years. He's spent just under two years of that time as a heel. He spent about half a year of that time actually getting booed. He wasn't exactly Lex Luger.

 

2. Incidentally, Lex Luger would like to inform you that frequent turns usually don't make fans more interested in you.

 

3. After the blue chipper stuff, Rock had about six years of connection to WWE. He spent about a year of that as a heel who actually got booed, spent a little under a year as a heel who got cheered, three years as a face who got cheered all the time, and a year as a face who often got cheered, but also was frequently booed against other faces as certain cool heels....you know, like John Cena. My point being that Rock's periods of immense popularity didn't seem to have any real connection to his face/heel status.

 

4. I have no concrete evidence of this, but something tells me the popularity of Austin and Rock had very, very little to do with the length of their title reigns.

 

Good points but the fact remains, Cena is getting booed ALOT now. When Rock was booed as a face, they turned him into a heel...and look what that did for him. They, for SOME reason, insist on keeping Cena as a face when he could so easily turn heel given the reactions he gets and be better off. He was a great heel when he was US champion, and I'd imagine he could pull it off even better now with the crowd heat he gets.

 

I'm not blaming Cena, they are just burning through all of their options with him as a lead face by keeping him as the unbeatable ace. To me, it doesnt work with all the tv exposure.

 

Also, out of curiousity, why do you think the PPV buyrates are down (since you dont think its Cena)?

[Bix]

Also, out of curiousity, why do you think the PPV buyrates are down (since you dont think its Cena)?

No.

 

I think the problem is that they use too much comedy to build feuds, so no one really has any desire to see the match by the time it happens. People may be tired of Cena making gay jokes and doing unfunny comedy, but that doesn't mean they're tired of Cena himself, or else everything would be down. It just means he's not being booked properly and they put him in silly feuds that don't invest people. When they do put aside the crap, a match like Cena/Khali drew well on PPV because it was built up well.

 

He's probably losing the belt in a few weeks anyway, and if anything, I'd think things will drop off with Orton in that role. Cena sort of needs to be champ to sale merchandise also, otherwise "The Champ Is Here" and toy spinner belts are a bit of a hard sell.

 

If it was as simple as fans being tired of Cena, house shows would be down also, and kids/women wouldn't be coming to see him, and that hasn't slowed at all.

 

Yes, some fans are tired of him, but they're outnumbered by ticket buyers, and buying a ticket to show up and boo John Cena means they are paying to see Cena lose, which means he's over, which means people aren't tired of him.

There's also the fact that 16 PPVs in a year at $40 each was probably the breaking point for a LOT of people buying the amount of PPVs they used to.

[Guest JBigred57]

I got all that, was curious on SLL's take on it.

[Loss]

I do think there will eventually come a time for Cena to turn heel. But the time isn't now. If they had a babyface that was red hot right now (and no, HHH or Misterio coming back don't really fit that bill), then they could probably turn Cena heel and go far with it. Austin turning heel when he was the top babyface in 2001 and Rock was out shows what happens when you take the top babyface and turn him without having someone else who connects with the masses to put in that spot. You get people the fans instinctively pop for, but ultimately a bunch of non-factors like Undertaker, Kane, Chris Jericho and Kurt Angle, guys who are not seen as being on the same level as the guy they're challenging, and guys who can't be seen on that level regardless of what steps are taken in booking. The time to turn Cena is when a fresh face comes along and his popularity starts to rival or exceed Cena's. Then, you can build to a turn and actually accomplish something with it.

 

Cena as a heel would be like Ric Flair as a heel after 1986 or so -- so much more over than his challengers that while he himself is a draw, it eventually becomes impossible to put him in feuds that draw because he's constantly put in the position to "make" all his opponents.

 

Also, much like Rock, I think if Cena was turned heel, he'd just start getting cheered again by the same people that are booing him now and they'd end up with the same problem all over again. So, what do they do then? Turn him babyface again? Not overreacting or panicking to the whimsical crowd reaction Cena gets is probably the thing WWE has done most right and most uncharacteristically the past few years. It's paid off in creating a bonafide new top guy (not a cup of coffee type like the Jerichos, Benoits and Rob Van Dams before him) that has a very unique aura, is incredibly over, and because they've been patient in not blowing their load on the big turn, when it happens, it will be huge and will probably draw big money.

 

There's no babyface now anywhere close to being ready to fill his shoes. When there is, that's the time to go for it.

[Jingus]

Ask ANYBODY and they will tell you they are sick of Cena

What is this, an "it's just common sense!" argument? You're not getting anywhere on this board with that. I had specific reasons why I didn't like Cena, and still got shot down like a Scud missle circa 1991.

[Guest JBigred57]

Great post, Loss...I actually agree too...but dont you think they need to do SOMETHING about this... I mean, I understand he is drawing money from all angles, but it does seem to turn away a lot of viewers. Maybe it isnt showing up in the numbers right now, but I think it might have an effect on it long term. I mean, how long can you book a guy to sell for 90% of a match, then put together the same cmeback and take the win? Hes good on the mic, but he isnt the Rock, and while hes good in the ring and can carry, he isnt as good as Austin... and he doesnt really have a defined gimmick to get behind. It just feels like theyre trying too hard to make him into the next Hogan/Austin/Rock hybrid.

 

Just saying, it feels kind of stale to me and a lot of fans right now...and I WANT to like Cena again.