WON awards front-runners for the first half of the year

[Loss]

When was Meltzer ever in the business? He's not someone who is always the keeper of everything holy in wrestling.

 

Last I heard, that since Wrestlemania, PPV buyrates and television ratings have been down, along with everything else. Unless you can provide a reliable source, your opinion is null and void.

 

Good sarcasm, though.

Where did you hear what you last heard, and what are your sources?

 

Please don't say Meltzer.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

1) You don't have to be in the business to report on something. Would you say that someone who has never run for office is therefore unqualified to report on politics?

 

2) Technically Meltzer was "in the business" around '87 I think when WWF hired him to do some research on international markets or something. I don't really know the story.

 

3) The fact that he isn't in the business pretty much inherently makes him more trustworthy than those who are.

 

4) I'm sure TV ratings have been down since the end of the super-hot Cena-Michaels program and the Trump angle.

 

5) PPV buyrates are going to be down, yes, for a bunch of B-shows, especially when you have 16 PPVs a year.

 

6) Why would Meltzer lie about house show attendance? He definitely isn't a WWE apologist. It might even be a stretch to call him a WWE fan. If business were down, trust me, you'd hear all about it and why this proves that Cena's offense is fake-looking and WWE needs more MMA influence and so on, etc.

[Bix]

When was Meltzer ever in the business?

1987 (I think) in the WWF.

[kjh]

WWE key performance indicators

 

Key things to note:

 

- Domestic house show business is up year on year.

- International house show business is down year on year.

- Recent PPV business is pretty much a wash. Judgment Day was the most successful B show PPV since Unforgiven last September. Vengeance and the Great American Bash did average business. Backlash and Bad Blood did poorly, but that's more due to running too many PPVs in such a short period than who was headlining them.

- DVD and online merchandise business is up year on year, but the increases may be starting to plateau.

 

It should be noted that Raw house shows tend to draw significantly better than Smackdown ones, though this isn't reflected in the performance indicators linked to above.

[tomk]

Um are people actually being trolled into defending the credibility of Meltzer's numbers in determining how you should vote in Meltzer's Wrestling Observer annual awards?

 

 

Cause that is legit impressive trolling.

 

This is a thread about the Won readers poll annual awards. You'd think someone who has zero respect for Meltzer wouldn't care about his awards.

[Guest JBigred57]

Um are people actually being trolled into defending the credibility of Meltzer's numbers in determining how you should vote in Meltzer's Wrestling Observer annual awards?

 

 

Cause that is legit impressive trolling.

 

This is a thread about the Won readers poll annual awards. You'd think someone who has zero respect for Meltzer wouldn't care about his awards.

Again I am not trolling, but whatever makes you sleep at night. The conversation moved away from the thread subject at hand, so I asked for proof of ridiculous claims.

 

I have been a fan of the business for over 25 years, I know the inner workings and what is what and who is who. My main source is Dave Scherer, pwinsider.com.

 

Again, that evidence isn't very telling. If I were to make an educated guess, I would say the reason merch sales are up is because Cena gets a new shirt every month, while every other worker gets about 2 - 4 shirts a year, depending on their push. Kids have their pick of a billion different Cena shirts, hats, wristbands, belts, jerseys, and so on. Its not like they will buy the same Carlito shirt twice.

 

Point blank, at the end of the day, you can only make so much off merchandise. buyrate and ratings are the bread and butter.

 

WHICH ARE DOWN.

 

Wrestler of the year? Perhaps based on work ethic, but you could put anyone in his spot and it would be as successful or moreso from a HS and merch sales standpoint.

[Guest Nathan]

Um are people actually being trolled into defending the credibility of Meltzer's numbers in determining how you should vote in Meltzer's Wrestling Observer annual awards?

 

 

Cause that is legit impressive trolling.

 

This is a thread about the Won readers poll annual awards. You'd think someone who has zero respect for Meltzer wouldn't care about his awards.

Again I am not trolling, but whatever makes you sleep at night. The conversation moved away from the thread subject at hand, so I asked for proof of ridiculous claims.

 

I have been a fan of the business for over 25 years, I know the inner workings and what is what and who is who. My main source is Dave Scherer, pwinsider.com.

 

Again, that evidence isn't very telling. If I were to make an educated guess, I would say the reason merch sales are up is because Cena gets a new shirt every month, while every other worker gets about 2 - 4 shirts a year, depending on their push. Kids have their pick of a billion different Cena shirts, hats, wristbands, belts, jerseys, and so on. Its not like they will buy the same Carlito shirt twice.

 

Point blank, at the end of the day, you can only make so much off merchandise. buyrate and ratings are the bread and butter.

 

WHICH ARE DOWN.

 

Supply and demand is a pretty simple concept that very young children understand.

 

If Carlito's one shirt sold very well, don't you think he would have more?

 

Why do you think Cena has so many shirts?

[Guest JBigred57]

Like I said, it's all in the push. He's pushed as the #1 wrestler in the company, so they make him a ton of shirts, etc. You can sell kids onto anything if done well. Kids have more options with Cena items than they do Carlito items. He's not doing anything any other superstar couldn't if they gave him HIS push, not taking anything away from Cena.

 

What reasons do we have to believe that if, say, CM Punk was put in the same spotlight for the same amount of time, that merch sales wouldnt be in the same place they are now, for Punk instead? What does Cena have that Punk doesnt? A push.

[Bix]

Point blank, at the end of the day, you can only make so much off merchandise. buyrate and ratings are the bread and butter.

WWE makes no money from TV advertising, thus the ratings have no direct impact on their bottom line. Besides, ratings haven't gone down under Cena, anyway. They're in the same high 3s to low 4s range they were before he came to Raw.

 

The house show numbers, as indicated by WWE's own figures, are up.

 

I'd like an argument for how WWE could pop much higher PPV numbers at a consistent rate after increasing the price to $39.95 for shows that occur every three weeks.

[Bix]

This is a thread about the Won readers poll annual awards. You'd think someone who has zero respect for Meltzer wouldn't care about his awards.

Oh, that too.

[S.L.L.]

that is legit impressive trolling.

This most importantly.

 

I mean, I like a good troll as much as anyone, but I'm having a hard time getting into the spirit of things with this one. He's too calculated. Too perfect. Doesn't feel real. He's like the Christopher Daniels of trolling.

[Jingus]

What does Cena have that Punk doesnt?

A couple inches of height and about forty pounds of muscle.

 

This kinda reminds me about a story from back in fall of '96, when the office had plans for a dozen different Mark Henry merch items, but told Stone Cold that they weren't giving him a t-shirt because they didn't think they'd sell any.

[Guest JBigred57]

John Cena will go down as... a former champion. That is all. Not a great draw, not a great worker.. Just a company man, a hard working wrestler. Former champion. Not one of the greatest. Unless you compare him to chicken poop. About it.

 

WWE makes no money from TV advertising, thus the ratings have no direct impact on their bottom line.

Since when?

[S.L.L.]

John Cena will go down as... a former champion. That is all. Not a great draw, not a great worker.. Just a company man, a hard working wrestler. Former champion. Not one of the greatest. Unless you compare him to chicken poop. About it.

 

WWE makes no money from TV advertising, thus the ratings have no direct impact on their bottom line.

Since when?

 

BOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRRRRRRIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGGGG

[Bix]

WWE makes no money from TV advertising, thus the ratings have no direct impact on their bottom line.

Since when?

The start of the current USA deal. I don't think they ever got ad money from UPN, but they definitely don't from the CW.

[Loss]

Pretty sure that was in the Lariat at some point ...

[Guest *FH*]

John Cena will go down as... a former champion. That is all. Not a great draw, not a great worker.. Just a company man, a hard working wrestler. Former champion. Not one of the greatest. Unless you compare him to chicken poop. About it.

With all his matches, media appearances, promotional work, etc, it's commendable that John Cena found the time to take the maidenhead of so many net smarks' sisters.

 

Can we put the "draw" and "not a draw" thing to rest for a while until it can be used for good instead of evil? It seems most of you don't know what the term means or, worse, just toss it out there disingenuously to make your point, truth be damned. Isn't house show attendance up due to Cena? Doesn't that mean he is a draw?

[Loss]

John Cena will go down as... a former champion. That is all. Not a great draw, not a great worker.. Just a company man, a hard working wrestler. Former champion. Not one of the greatest. Unless you compare him to chicken poop. About it.

 

WWE makes no money from TV advertising, thus the ratings have no direct impact on their bottom line.

Since when?

 

Goodhelmet has suspended you from the board for the next 32,000 days.

[Al]

I wonder how Cena will fare historically when all is done. He seems a lot like Bob Backlund, where he was a good draw with a long reign and good matches, but didn't receive his due for some time.

[Loss]

I always thought HHH and Backlund made a good comparison in terms of positioning. Both are guys who have drawn money, but their importance in that is debated constantly. Both are guys who have had quite a few good matches, but whose opponents usually get the majority of the credit. Both can be argued as being successful at times in their role, and also turning fans off at times in their role. Both are guys who peaked in an era when other strong draws were helping boost numbers on shows as well.

 

I imagine in 20 years, HHH will be discussed on Wrestling Classics, with tOA types defending him, and stating reasons why guys like Jericho and Angle wouldn't make better guys to build around, much in the same way they do so now with people like Valentine and DiBiase. Backlund was a guy who was considered overrated in the ring, but was also in his share of MOTY-level matches, also just like HHH. It's not a situation like Hogan or Warrior where either guy is completely despised by nearly 100% of the hardcore base. It leaves a big opportunity open for HHH to be re-evaluated and rediscovered, and I suspect the same type of fan that defends Bob Backlund in 2007 will be defending HHH in 2027.

 

Perhaps DVDVR will be accused of purposely leaving Helmsley matches off of their Best of the 00's set to spite his fans.

[S.L.L.]

I always thought HHH and Backlund made a good comparison in terms of positioning. Both are guys who have drawn money, but their importance in that is debated constantly. Both are guys who have had quite a few good matches, but whose opponents usually get the majority of the credit. Both can be argued as being successful at times in their role, and also turning fans off at times in their role. Both are guys who peaked in an era when other strong draws were helping boost numbers on shows as well.

 

I imagine in 20 years, HHH will be discussed on Wrestling Classics, with tOA types defending him, and stating reasons why guys like Jericho and Angle wouldn't make better guys to build around, much in the same way they do so now with people like Valentine and DiBiase. Backlund was a guy who was considered overrated in the ring, but was also in his share of MOTY-level matches, also just like HHH. It's not a situation like Hogan or Warrior where either guy is completely despised by nearly 100% of the hardcore base. It leaves a big opportunity open for HHH to be re-evaluated and rediscovered, and I suspect the same type of fan that defends Bob Backlund in 2007 will be defending HHH in 2027.

 

Perhaps DVDVR will be accused of purposely leaving Helmsley matches off of their Best of the 00's set to spite his fans.

The problem is that during the company's most successful periods when HHH was featured prominently, he was "the other guy you could build around" instead of Austin, Rock, or Cena. Backlund sold out MSG more than any wrestler in history. HHH never had that kind of success as an individual drawing card, only when he was paired with Austin, Rock, Cena, Foley, or Vince. Certainly, you'd have to consider that a stronger crop of "other guys" than Valentine, DiBiase, Graham, Patera, Muraco, and Adonis. As the star of the show, HHH is closer to what I imagine would've happened if they de-pushed Backlund in favor of Snuka, and the whole thing bombed.

[Loss]

My comparison was more Bruno, Dusty, etc. coming in to help house show attendance while Backlund headlined. It's similar to the comebacks of Austin, Rock, Hogan, Foley, etc. at big shows in the past few years, shows headlined by HHH much of the time.

[tomk]

HHH is already in the Observer HOF and so my guess is that really there won't be a ton of the type of discussion that was built around Backlund.

 

Also my guess is the numbers will make it hard for your toa type to push his value.

 

http://prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?show...p;#entry5421733

 

Um... no. His feud with Foley made Rock a superstar enough to do record business with Austin at Mania in 1999. He then turned face after finishing the feud so that the company had two monster faces in Austin and Rock.

 

The feuds with babyfaces McMahon, Foley and Rock made *Trip*, not the other way around. Go back and check out some of the stuff from late 1999 when the belt was first put on Trip. He wasn't that over. It's why Vince panicked and took the belt off him and gave it to Show.

 

Then the stealing of Steph, the mini-feud with Vince started him getting heat. Then the feud with Foley elevated him. Then the feud with Rock "made" him.

 

Despite that, Rock-Austin did better business in *both* 1999 and 2001 than Rock was able to do opposite Trip in 2000.

 

The degree to which Trip was over, and "carried" the company, has always been overplayed.

 

jdw

In all of that I think people will loose sight of the fact that HHH is pretty clearly a strong cage match draw.

 

Then again Rusher was a strong cage draw who stuck around long past his prime and I haven't read any real discussion of his legacy at either toa or classics. Some criticism of Meltzer's obit but no real legacy discussion.

[Indikator]

Rusher died??

[kjh]

In all of that I think people will loose sight of the fact that HHH is pretty clearly a strong cage match draw.

True, but it was the earlier performances of Shawn Michaels and Mick Foley that made the Hell In The Cell gimmick such a strong draw.