Comments that don't warrant a thread

[Dan]

Surely 1wrestling.com is an exception?

 

...

 

In other news, on a recent Keller audio dealie, he said that Jerry Jarrett was on the phone with him in 2002 when he (JJ) proposed the TNA name. JJ told him that Russo came up with the name to trick people into thinking they were ordering porn. Not really shocking, but I don't recall JJ actually admitted to it before.

[rovert]

In other news, on a recent Keller audio dealie, he said that Jerry Jarrett was on the phone with him in 2002 when he (JJ) proposed the TNA name. JJ told him that Russo came up with the name to trick people into thinking they were ordering porn. Not really shocking, but I don't recall JJ actually admitted to it before.

The name TNA is one of Kellers primary gripes with that company he mentions that story the odd time. Im fairly sure Jerry Jarrett mentions that explaination in his book too.

[rovert]

Still bingeing on 57talk if Buck Robely states one more reason proving that him and Brody were close Ill scream.

[KrisZ]

Well Buck & Brody was close as they were tied up a lot together but the Brody hero worship is funny to me on 57talk interviews with Buck & Matysik. Cubeta saying that Flair should've never been world champion nearly made me fall out of my chair.

[Bix]

What was the context and reasoning for the Flair thing?

[KrisZ]

He thinks that Flair was nothing but a loser because he rarely won clean where Hogan won clean all the time and was a dominant champion. Flair wasn't a draw and was one of the main reasons why JCP went out of business.

[Loss]

The ups and downs of Ric Flair's drawing power through the years is really an interesting topic on its own, and one that I don't think has ever been discussed in depth by anyone other than Flair fanboys and WWF fanboys who think Hulk Hogan was the only wrestler of his era who was actually a draw. There are times when Flair has clearly delivered big numbers, and times where despite the hype and full promotion being there, he hasn't. Worth a more detailed look for sure.

[rovert]

Good old TNA head shaving angle last week on tv, career vs career the next.

[goc]

He thinks that Flair was nothing but a loser because he rarely won clean where Hogan won clean all the time and was a dominant champion. Flair wasn't a draw and was one of the main reasons why JCP went out of business.

I don't think his argument is really all that bad. I don't remember him ever saying "Flair should have never been World champion" but he has said he thinks they should have put the belt on a babyface once they started really trying to compete with WWF. I think it's a fair point to make that JCP's champ looked inferior to WWF's because Hogan always went over and Flair always had some kind of shenanigans going on for him to keep the belt. That said, I find Gary to be really annoying. I appreciate the free interviews but his constant crowing about how he is the "best interviewer" and constantly interrupting guys so he can talk about his same old ass tired talking points of "do you think anyone can compete with Vince today" or "do you think anyone could have beaten Vince in the 80s?"

[KrisZ]

He said that Flair should've never been world champ in one of the Matysik interviews. I can't remember which one.

 

Plus his hatred of Bob Backlund is really annoying as well. His main talking point was that the heels were the draws not Backlund and he was nothing but a pawn for the heels.

 

Regarding Flair as a draw, he was a heel world champion for the national version of JCP for 3 years give or take a couple of months and when they did take the strap off him it was for Dusty for one week and Ronnie Garvin who bombed for 2 months. Magnum's crash changed Dusty's plans and he never fully recovered as Nikita was great in his role but wouldn't have drawn like Magnum. Luger should've gotten the strap at the 88 Bash which arguably was Dusty's biggest mistake as the booker because Luger was red hot as a babyface and a world champ Luger defending against the Horsemen would've been fresh.

[Slasher]

Speaking of Flair, today I was thinking about him for some reason, so I checked out his wikipedia page, and the very last sentence in the first section which seems shoehorned in is "Never drew a dime." I scratched my head and closed the page and forgot about it til I read this thread.

[rovert]

Finally got round to watching the Life & Death of Owen Hart and really enjoyed it. It was rather striking hearing the Hart Family story from Owen's voice as opposed to Bret or the other members of the family retelling it over and over.

[sek69]

Regarding Flair as a draw, he was a heel world champion for the national version of JCP for 3 years give or take a couple of months and when they did take the strap off him it was for Dusty for one week and Ronnie Garvin who bombed for 2 months. Magnum's crash changed Dusty's plans and he never fully recovered as Nikita was great in his role but wouldn't have drawn like Magnum. Luger should've gotten the strap at the 88 Bash which arguably was Dusty's biggest mistake as the booker because Luger was red hot as a babyface and a world champ Luger defending against the Horsemen would've been fresh.

 

This is pretty much how I feel as well. From 1983-1986 Flair seemed to be a good enough draw champion as champion, I don't think anyone else who was a viable option to replace him would have done significantly better. He wasn't the draw Hogan was, but to be fair no one was until Austin came around 15 or so years later. Everything from 1987 on seemed to be a chain of events that was one mistake after another once the plans were changed post-Magnum. I know some people don't believe the "Magnum was destined to be champion" stories, but at the very least him being out removed a pretty big part of the main event plans which caused everyone to be reshuffled.

 

To this day, I can't figure out why they couldn't see the forest through the trees and make Luger champ. He was like the Goldberg of 1988 and not only did they not give him the belt, they kept having him lose in the lamest ways possible, like a blood stoppage for a trickle in a promotion where even jobbers were known for 5 alarm bladejobs. Not only did it kill Luger's momentum, it made him look like a guy who couldn't get the job done in the eyes of the fans. I even remember one of the Apter mags doing a story about that, perhaps as a subtle "WTF, dude" message to Dusty.

[KrisZ]

3 biggest Dusty booking mistakes

 

Luger not getting the strap at the 88 Bash

 

Roadies not getting the tag straps at Starrcade 87

 

Completely obliterating the UWF after the buyout.

 

Any one of these three could be #1 in my mind.

[El-P]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7ekE99Aifk

 

No word needed really...

[kjh]

Didn't the '88 Bash blood stoppage finish actually work in the short term and boost house show business for return matches between the two, as Luger only failed to win the title on a technicality and people thought they could potentially see a title switch in a house show rematch? Obviously the feud had run out of steam by Starrcade, but you could have done a house show switch in one of the matches on the circuit, which would have kept Luger's momentum going without having to give away a clean finish in their first PPV match together.

 

To be honest though I'm not sure how much of this is Dusty's fault and how much to blame is the state of the company at the time (treading water until the Turner buyout who wanted Flair as part of the deal) and Flair being reluctant to drop the title to Luger. I really think Dusty's hands were tied. Or are we supposed to just take it for granted that Flair would happily drop the title to a green musclehead he had little respect for?

[jdw]

On Flair...

 

He was a good draw as World Champ from 1981 to 1986. That's not to say he never drew after, nor to say that he was always red hot from 1981-86. Just to say:

 

He was a good draw as World Champ for at least 5 years.

 

It's really hard to argue he never should have been World Champ, or that he never drew as World Champ. In fact... it's a petty stupid argument.

 

What he drew relative to Hogan prior to 1986 wasn't too relevant. Ric was still touring for much of that period, and it seems like most of the NWA promoters were happy with his drawing power compared to other options. In fact, the complaint was more about getting appearances from him. Sure, at some point folks like Fritz decided that having his own World Champ was needed for various reasons. But I don't think they ever had major issues with Flair's drawing ability.

 

1986 was a bit of a turning point, though Crockett did reasonable business expanding nationally. I think Flair as Champ wasn't an issue in 1986, as he made for a good contrast to the WWF. At that point, promoting opposite the WWF with Hogan Jr. probably wouldn't have been a good idea while establishing yourself. Crockett had other issues that perhaps kept them from making a stronger base in 1986, and overtime came back to haunt them.

 

After 1986, I think Flair as heel champ was one of their issues. Not the biggest, not a critical one, but certainly one. The faces chasing him forever with the same shit saving the title just starts to play out after a while. A few weeks breaking up the long Flair reigns really don't change the constant equation that he had the belt, the faces always got screwed, and you get tired of that as a fan. I liked Flair, yet I could see the issue.

 

I don't think that's entirely *Flair's* fault, or even much of it. They didn't have great alternatives as champ. I still don't think that Lex as a long term face anchor Champ opposite Hogan was a fantatic idea. I don't think in Crockett or in Turner than Sting in that role would have been very successful even if they hit it out of the park. [in contrast, if Warrior and Sting traded places in Jan 1988, Vince would have made a SHITLOAD of money off Sting... unless Hogan felt so threatened that he cut him off. Just a matter of right person, wrong promotion.] And no one else was a great face anchor, which to a degree was needed after the long term Flair run.

 

John

[Bix]

I'd say 1986 is definitely a positive. JCP started to expand in a big way and so far were doing well in the new markets, especially Philly. The booking was still strong, they weren't blowing money on expensive syndication time slots, they weren't going to questionable new markets and returning to them after they didn't draw, they drew more paid admissions that year than WWE did in 2009, etc.

 

Then Magnum had his accident, Dusty lost his touch, and Crockett made a series of bad business decisions.

[jdw]

I think the Maggie accident gets blamed for too much. Maggie wasn't Hogan, and never would have been even among JCP Fans. I think there was a national shelf life there, much like there was on the R'n'R. And Dusty's style of booking (heels almost always screwing over faces) wasn't going to do Maggie any favors in the long run, especially after he had a taste of the World Title if that's where he was headed.

 

I'm not 100% certain the face one could have tried to run opposite Hogan. I don't think there was one at the time. The only one that comes to mind and would have fully fit the JCP style of storytelling would be Austin. Hogan as the larger than life cartoon character, while Austin is a bad ass, asskicker.

 

Maggie wasn't that. Sure, Dusty and he kicked a lot of Horsemen ass.

 

But so did Ricky Morton.

 

Think about King Kong Bundy bitching out to Dynamite Kid half a year before Mania '86.

 

I think Dusty would have run into the same brickwall with Maggie that he did with Sting and Lex: Dusty doesn't book for a dynastic face. Even himself as the Lead Ubber Face wasn't the champ. Dusty was able to get away with it for a decade, but even he started running into issues as they went national.

 

John

[sek69]

I don't think the plan would have ever been to have Magnum be the JCP Hogan, I think the plan seemed to be more like phasing the eternal Dusty-Flair feud into a Magnum-Flair one, and allowing Dusty to take a more behind the scenes/Baba at the trios and comedy stage of his career kind of role. That's why I think the accident was so important. Not so much for what may have been with Magnum directly, but for what other plans were changed as a result of it. Think about it, Nikita probably stays heel longer for one. The Horsemen/Lex thing probably still happens because that was about replacing Ole. So now you have super babyface Lex vs super heel Nikita and it may not have even mattered if the title was involved or not. You could get a pretty decent run out of that before Nikita's wife gets sick and kills his interest in wrestling. Starrcade would have done better since it wouldn't have featured Flair vs a lame duck champion, and maybe that allows Crockett to be able to pay some guys instead of going broke and starting the mass exodus to the WWF.

 

That's a lot of maybes to be sure, but it illustrates how Magnum's accident was the butterfly effect in action.

[kjh]

Ceteris paribus, Starrcade '87 would still be a major money loser due to going head to head with the WWF's Survivor Series and only 5 cable companies carrying the show. Maggie's accident didn't change the long term result, the fallout only meant that Crockett couldn't hold on for as long. JCP would've still been sold to Turner before the end of the decade.

[khawk20]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7ekE99Aifk

 

No word needed really...

 

Actually, word needed...the video has been removed so I don't know what it was.

[KrisZ]

In all fairness, Dusty should've taken a break from booking in 1987 because every booker gets burnt out after a long booking stint and with guys there like Dundee, Gilbert, Dillon, & Kevin Sullivan then Gary Hart coming in during 1988 they could've gotten somewhat fresher and Dusty could've focused only on wrestling. The thing was that Jim Crockett was married to Dusty professionally and I think even if Dusty wanted to take a break, Crockett would've made him stay.

 

Barry Windham getting the title from Flair in 1987 could've worked as well but if I was in charge of JCP when the UWF was bought, DiBiase gets a long-term deal, then we do the UWF invasion setting up Flair/DiBiase at Starrcade title vs. title to determine the unified champion, DiBiase wins the title as the heel then we have a babyface Flair who would leave the Horsemen, Luger, Sting, Windham, Nikita challenging DiBiase for the title

[kjh]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7ekE99Aifk

 

No word needed really...

 

Actually, word needed...the video has been removed so I don't know what it was.

 

Here's an alternative video of what El-P was talking about:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSBzxHCN4qc

[El-P]

Thanks for posting the original version. Here's the Benny Hill one :

 

 

Priceless...