Comments that don't warrant a thread

[jdw]

I doubt most of the people who voted for it really knew all that much about Panther as a worker.

 

I wanted it to be great because it's Panther and he's losing his mask. But that isn't exactly a great Panther match.

 

John

[tomk]

I don't know why one would think that fans of Villano V v Blue Panther mask match haven't seen alot of Blue Panther.

Trying to think what is the high end Blue Panther mask match that the more "well schooled" Blue Panther fan has seen with which to compare it.

Blue Panther v Love Machine is significantly worse match by alot.

Blue Panther v Vulcano is significantly worse match by alot.

I assume no one has Blackman match mask.

 

can't give it much credit for V taking the header into the arm rest. It basically screwed up the first two falls rather than add drama.

Huh. How so? It leads to rest of match with guy who took bump to back of his head fighting from below, it's pretty key to the whole rest of the match. If Villano V deliberatley bladed the back of his head than that suggests a real desire to make it a big drama spot. If it wasn;'t a deliberate blade job and just two guys working the story of legit injury than that's also about working drama. Makes the powerbomb spot more dramatic. Makes the Villano willing to potentially do more damage to himself if it means more damage to opponent three superplex spot more dramatic. Leads to the whole Villano V goes to back match restart which is a drama spot.

 

Know it was a big stip match - it was the main event of the freaking 75th Anniversary Show. But the first two falls, other than the tope by Panther, were short with shit mask pulling finishes and then the heel wandering off to the back.

First two falls are short by 93 standards. This is 2008 CMLL where the length of match falls is about what you expect.

There was alot more to them than the tope and I don't know what the objection is to mask pulling and mask pulling receipt finishes.

Villano V didn't so much "wander" to the back as he was helped to the back by his second.

The heel going to the back to regroup between falls, wrestler knocked out on floor between falls coming too upset, wrestler being taken to hospital commandeering ambulance and coming back is kind of classic big match restart moment. Guy gets hurt gets taken to the back and regroups is basic wrestling stuff. It also led to the Killer Bees switch booking later that year where the question was constantly raised as to if it was same Villano who returned between falls.

 

Currently big mask match formula is two short falls leading to third fall where guys put it all out on the line, which mostly ends up being guys trading big moves "your turn-my turn" style. The two shmozz finishes leading to guys putting it all on the line by doing dangerous potentially self destructive spots excessive numbers of times in a row was a cool format.

 

BP vs V5 is only so popular because it was a huge upset. Otherwise nobody would have even talked about it.

No one wanted to see Blue Panther loose his mask. No one.

I mean there are a couple loons who wanted to see him "pass the torch" to some young guy with pretty dives or something. But for the most part no one wanted to see him loose his mask. US fans went into that match already upset at the finish, predisposed to dislike the match.

 

The crowd pops pretty big for the first Fujiwara arm bar near fall and I imagine if Villano V had lost the mask right there it would still get pimped and wouldn't be hurt by the level of anger most of us have over Panther loosing his mask.

[jdw]

I don't know why one would think that fans of Villano V v Blue Panther mask match haven't seen alot of Blue Panther.

Trying to think what is the high end Blue Panther mask match that the more "well schooled" Blue Panther fan has seen with which to compare it.

Blue Panther v Love Machine is significantly worse match by alot.

Blue Panther v Vulcano is significantly worse match by alot.

I assume no one has Blackman match mask.

I don't recall those matches doing exceptionally well in the WON Awards. I'd frankly be surprised if 33% of the voters from the time of Panther-Machine are still voting now, or that 33% of the voters now were voters then. You really think a lot of the folks who voted for that match have watched much Panther over the years and have a clue about his work? I don't think Dave has that huge of a *paying* readership that's huge Lucha marks.

 

 

 

can't give it much credit for V taking the header into the arm rest. It basically screwed up the first two falls rather than add drama.

Huh. How so?

Because once they got reset back in the ring they quickly went to mask pulling to kill off the first fall. Then went quickly to the payback mask pulling to kill off the second fall so that V could head back stage to take a break, get checked out by the doctor or switched out with his brother depending on which version of the "story" one cares to buy into.

 

Personally, I don't find *quicky* mask pulling finishes to falls being too dramatic. One could try to pimp it as Bringing The Hate, but really is was low end hate here compared to strong lucha hate.

 

For us, it just killed the match until Panther hit his second tope in the third fall.

 

 

First two falls are short by 93 standards. This is 2008 CMLL where the length of match falls is about what you expect.

And I'm suppose to think that's great?

 

 

There was alot more to them than the tope and I don't know what the objection is to mask pulling and mask pulling receipt finishes.

Back-to-back mask pulling finishes bore the fuck out of me. Always have. It's bad enough to watch Panther wandering by loosening up his own mask to make it easier to come off.

 

 

Villano V didn't so much "wander" to the back as he was helped to the back by his second.

He actually wandered back.

 

 

The heel going to the back to regroup between falls, wrestler knocked out on floor between falls coming too upset, wrestler being taken to hospital commandeering ambulance and coming back is kind of classic big match restart moment.

Really? Which lucha match had hospital and commandeering ambulance spot? Is this another of the stupid things Konnan brought back from the US to "improve" lucha?

 

 

Currently big mask match formula is two short falls leading to third fall where guys put it all out on the line, which mostly ends up being guys trading big moves "your turn-my turn" style. The two shmozz finishes leading to guys putting it all on the line by doing dangerous potentially self destructive spots excessive numbers of times in a row was a cool format.

We have a different idea of what's cool.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

There isn't much that I put over in that thread as Match of the Year Candidates. The overwhelming majority of what I put over is in context - good for what it was.

 

Hogan-Orndorff in Exhibition Stadium is a good Hogan match that hits a big match aura in that setting. In the same setting, Steamboat vs Jake is a horrifically shitty match.

 

But I'm not pimping Hogan-Orndorff as being remotely close to Choshu & Yatsu vs Jumbo & Tenryu.

 

It's similar to what I'm doing above. I don't get Panther-Villano being rated higher than Panther-Atlantis.

 

People are reading too much into the WWF Thread if they think I'm pimping the stuff as the be all, end all of 80s wrestling. It's pretty clear that I think other stuff is better. The points of the thread are:

 

* there were some good WWF in the decade, some of it that got overlooked

 

* there was a fair amount of good WWF matches that didn't make the DVDVR set

 

* there was a fair amount of shitty WWF matches that made the DVDVR set for some reason

 

* My view of WWF matches doesn't exactly line up with the results of the Poll, and I wanted to walk through why

 

There are some other sub-points that pop up while running through the matches, but those were the reasons for starting the thread. Not to compare matches in the 80s to stuff in the 00's.

 

John

 

I've enjoyed following the thread and I think you have unlocked some pretty good stuff to be fair.

 

Also my point wasn't so much "John loves 80's WWF!" which I don't think anyone who has followed your reviews at tOA could possibly conclude. My point is that their is an awful lot of stuff from the 80's that you do like more than matches from this decade that I personally believe are pretty clearly better. I chalk this up to stylistic preferences, but I do think it's a real point and not an imagined one. A brief glance at the reviews you've written and your WWE ballot from SC are what I'm working from here.

[ohtani's jacket]

I doubt most of the people who voted for it really knew all that much about Panther as a worker.

 

I wanted it to be great because it's Panther and he's losing his mask. But that isn't exactly a great Panther match.

 

John

Well, a fair number of those votes have to have been internet smarks who subscribe to the WON, otherwise I don't see how it gets into the top five. It took a long time for that show to be available on DVD, I figure most people downloaded it.

[sek69]

I only semi-follow lucha (and hardly at all now that Comcast no longer has CMLL on demand), but I just figured that the Villano-Panther match was kind of like he lucha version of something like HBK-Taker. Two guys who were really good (and are still pretty good for old dudes) putting on a great show that people like because it reminds them of when they were younger and could really rock the house.

[S.L.L.]

I doubt most of the people who voted for it really knew all that much about Panther as a worker.

 

I wanted it to be great because it's Panther and he's losing his mask. But that isn't exactly a great Panther match.

Tom hit on this already, but since I'm at my best when I'm expanding on his points anyway....

 

This is a pretty big misreading of the situation. Panther vs. Villano V is really not the kind of match that draws support from your typical Observer reader. Not the kind of match that gets pushed by guys who look to Dave as a tastemaker and tend to parrot his opinions. As I recall, Dave hadn't even seen the match until after the awards came out, so it is not like he really pushed it on his readers. Guys who didn't know much about Panther wouldn't be actively seeking this out.

 

This is a match supported by Segunda Caida types with a different aesthetic from your core Observer voters, and to that end, was genuinely shocked it finished as high as it did. Would guess this is an instance where voters who liked the match really liked the match. Would think this is a group mostly consisting of people who are already familiar with Panther's work (who had to overcome the shock of Panther losing his mask in the first place, as Tom noted). Probably a sub-group of people who hadn't seen a lot of Panther's work, but had an understanding of who he was and had a Segunda Caida-ish aesthetic. Unlikely that these people, if exposed to more of Panther's work, would change their minds.

 

I could be guessing wrong, of course. Like I said, really didn't expect the match to fare as well in voting as it did, because the majority of people pushing it didn't strike me as Observer voter tastemakers. But if I had to guess, those who voted for it were of a similar mind. Not a match Meltzer pushed, really doesn't even seem like the kind of match he or your average Observer reader would like. And it's not like Blue Panther or Villano V are Shawn Michaels or Kurt Angle. Not guys who have a history of being arbitrarily supported by Observer readers even if they don't deserve it. Often don't get supported even if they do deserve it. So not sure where else it would come from.

[jdw]

I've enjoyed following the thread and I think you have unlocked some pretty good stuff to be fair.

 

Also my point wasn't so much "John loves 80's WWF!" which I don't think anyone who has followed your reviews at tOA could possibly conclude. My point is that their is an awful lot of stuff from the 80's that you do like more than matches from this decade that I personally believe are pretty clearly better. I chalk this up to stylistic preferences, but I do think it's a real point and not an imagined one. A brief glance at the reviews you've written and your WWE ballot from SC are what I'm working from here.

It's a zero sum game.

 

Do I like some 80s WWF more than some of the 00s WWE?

 

Sure.

 

Do I think Rock vs Hogan > Taker vs Flair & Flair vs Shawn?

 

Yes.

 

Do I like the 2001 Austin vs Rock more than pretty much anything in the 80s WWF?

 

Yes. I think I only had one WWF 80s match ahead of it, my #1 match. And possibly only one other match in the poll, since I'm pretty sure I had Austin-Rock in my Top 3.

 

Go across decades or stay within decades, people are going to find things that they disagree with me on.

 

Come back to me in a decade to have me take a look at the WWE in the first half of the 00's or relook at the WWF in the 90s, and it's possible I'd rate more of it into higher slots. Or I may look at Austin-Rock and Bret-Owen and wonder what I was smoking.

 

John

[jdw]

This is a match supported by Segunda Caida types with a different aesthetic from your core Observer voters,

My point - how many of the "Segunda Caida types" are paying subs to the one? How many of them voted in the WON Awards?

 

It's entirely possible that Dave now takes ballots from non-subs, in which case I can see a block of non-sub voters pushing it. Sort of like Flair getting a lot of votes online for Time's Man Of The Year Award. The difference is that Time pitched those results as I recall.

 

I also could be entirely wrong about how many of the Segunsa Caida types sub to the WON.

 

John

[S.L.L.]

This is a match supported by Segunda Caida types with a different aesthetic from your core Observer voters,

My point - how many of the "Segunda Caida types" are paying subs to the one? How many of them voted in the WON Awards?

 

It's entirely possible that Dave now takes ballots from non-subs, in which case I can see a block of non-sub voters pushing it. Sort of like Flair getting a lot of votes online for Time's Man Of The Year Award. The difference is that Time pitched those results as I recall.

 

I also could be entirely wrong about how many of the Segunsa Caida types sub to the WON.

 

John

 

I honestly don't know. I admit it's still a wrong-looking answer, but it's the most logical answer I can think of. I really don't know where else it could be coming from.

 

"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"

-Sherlock Holmes

[jdw]

It would be logically if Dave takes votes from anyone.

 

The problem with that is that "anyone" would include a boatload of WWE fans as well. More than Segunda Caida types. I also suspect there are limits to the number of ballots that Dave would want to count if he opened things up wide open.

 

Anyway... I suspect someone here subs to the WO-4 boards and can ask Dave who the majority of Panther-V voters were.

 

John

[Dylan Waco]

I've enjoyed following the thread and I think you have unlocked some pretty good stuff to be fair.

 

Also my point wasn't so much "John loves 80's WWF!" which I don't think anyone who has followed your reviews at tOA could possibly conclude. My point is that their is an awful lot of stuff from the 80's that you do like more than matches from this decade that I personally believe are pretty clearly better. I chalk this up to stylistic preferences, but I do think it's a real point and not an imagined one. A brief glance at the reviews you've written and your WWE ballot from SC are what I'm working from here.

It's a zero sum game.

 

Do I like some 80s WWF more than some of the 00s WWE?

 

Sure.

 

Do I think Rock vs Hogan > Taker vs Flair & Flair vs Shawn?

 

Yes.

 

Do I like the 2001 Austin vs Rock more than pretty much anything in the 80s WWF?

 

Yes. I think I only had one WWF 80s match ahead of it, my #1 match. And possibly only one other match in the poll, since I'm pretty sure I had Austin-Rock in my Top 3.

 

Go across decades or stay within decades, people are going to find things that they disagree with me on.

 

Come back to me in a decade to have me take a look at the WWE in the first half of the 00's or relook at the WWF in the 90s, and it's possible I'd rate more of it into higher slots. Or I may look at Austin-Rock and Bret-Owen and wonder what I was smoking.

 

John

 

How many post 02 matches made your top fifty list? How many did you even consider?

[Resident Evil]

Segunda Caida types? It appears that I'm following behind on the IWC. Who are Segunda Caida types?

[Jingus]

Guys who really like lucha, I guess. Can't mean the guys who write on that actual site, considering there's only six of them, not exactly a consolidated voter base.

[Dylan Waco]

Guys who really like lucha, I guess. Can't mean the guys who write on that actual site, considering there's only six of them, not exactly a consolidated voter base.

No but there are a lot of smarts who take their cues from tom, Phil and to a lesser extent SLL.

[kjh]

To clarify for jdw, Dave hasn't opened up voting to non-subscribers. I'm sure Segunda Caida's pimping of the match helped, but part of it was also that it was a weak year for candidates (no Japanese or ROH matches that were universally raved about as MOTY favorites) and Panther dropping his mask was put over in the sheets as one of the biggest surprises in wrestling history and the biggest moment in recent lucha history.

[Matt D]

People are reading too much into the WWF Thread if they think I'm pimping the stuff as the be all, end all of 80s wrestling. It's pretty clear that I think other stuff is better. The points of the thread are:

 

* there were some good WWF in the decade, some of it that got overlooked

 

* there was a fair amount of good WWF matches that didn't make the DVDVR set

 

* there was a fair amount of shitty WWF matches that made the DVDVR set for some reason

 

* My view of WWF matches doesn't exactly line up with the results of the Poll, and I wanted to walk through why

 

There are some other sub-points that pop up while running through the matches, but those were the reasons for starting the thread. Not to compare matches in the 80s to stuff in the 00's.

John

Can someone link me to this post,please? I don't usually take a look at that board. I've been watching all of the WWF SNME's and PPVs from 87 or so on, though most of that stuff isn't represented at all on the DVDVR list which skews to the first half of the decade in a big way., which is understandable but disappointing as I'd love to see commentary on a lot of the stuff I've been watching. It's funny. I'm almost sick of hearing about great matches and I'm at a point in my watching life that I sort of want to see middling ones and try to figure out what the mindset amd structure behind them was. I'm not sure if that even makes any sense.

 

I still want to see someone talk about SNME Hogan/Genius though, which while by no means a good match, is probably both the more fun Hogan match of the late 80s and one of the ultimate representations of "Hogan the Bully" out there. But I'm curious to see all the other reviews.

 

Thanks.

[ohtani's jacket]

Can F4W subscribers vote? How about people who only subscribe via the website?

[kjh]

Can someone link me to this post,please?

100+ Nights 1980's WWF...

 

Can F4W subscribers vote? How about people who only subscribe via the website?

People who only subscribe to the website could vote, not sure about the F4W offline subscribers.

[jdw]

How many post 02 matches made your top fifty list?

I would be surprised if any were.

 

 

How many did you even consider?

How many did I watch or re-watch?

 

I promised myself that I would re-watch/watch at least 35 of the heavily pimped matches on the board. I made it to 50 and tapped out at that point. Ended up being everything from 2003 through early 2008 that made the Top 100, and most that made the Top 101-200. There were a few like a Benoit vs Kane TV match that I saw at the time it aired, didn't have any memory of it doing a thing for me, and passed on it to spend my time watching something else more pimped.

 

How much did I seriously consider?

 

After watching/re-watching them, none.

 

I don't think that should be terribly surprising. Back in 2000-2004 when posting regularly about the WWE and it's TV and PPV's, I wasn't as big of a fan of Benoit and Eddy's work in the WWE as most everyone else. I was off Angle's bandwagon pretty early. I never was as high on Brock as most. What I think of Shawn is pretty well known (it's not like many of his matches in the 80s or 90s made my list - just one that I can recall). I never cared much for Trip. I was more tolerant of Cena's work early on than most. I've never been a big Regal or Finlay mark. Edge always struck me as "solid" rather than "great". I'm trying to remember anything I said positive about Rey's work in the WWE.

 

2000-2004 was well before my jag on watching 80s WWF in response to the DVDVR poll. Didn't start the WWF 80s thread until the end of 2006, which is also when Will's Backlund set came out. My lack of sporting a woody over "Modern WWF" predates looking at the 80s, especially looking deeper into the 80s than the DVDVR list - didn't start writing about that stuff until 2008, probably 1-2 months before Ray asked me to jump into the SC Poll.

 

But what the heck, fans of the WWF/WWE shouldn't dispare. My favorite promotion is All Japan. The work in the promotion started wearing with me in 1997 and by 1998 it was painful. I haven't thought as highly about much of anything from All Japan or NOAH since then that other pimp to the moon. I think the match I've had the most fun with since then was Kobashi vs Suzuki and that was largely for Suzuki goofing on NOAH-style spots.

 

So if 2003-2009 WWE doesn't float my boat, consider than none of the Kobashi-Misawa, Kobashi-Akiyama and Misawa-Akiyama matches after 1/97 are things that would make my "Top 50 All Japan + NOAH" list. I suspect WWE in the 00's would do better on my list than AJPW+NOAH in the 00s would.

 

John

[jdw]

Segunda Caida types? It appears that I'm following behind on the IWC. Who are Segunda Caida types?

 

Guys who really like lucha, I guess. Can't mean the guys who write on that actual site, considering there's only six of them, not exactly a consolidated voter base.

Segunda Caida is Phil and Tom, unless they've added people. I don't really think there's a "type". Is Jose one of the type? I tend to think of Jose as Jose, a longtime lucha fan who has always been a fab read to get educated from. Are guys like Cook and Daniel of the type? Beats me. I simply used the term because one of the other posters did. I didn't think it made a great deal of sense given the WON, so I bounced it back.

 

I doubt either of Segunda Caida is a paying sub to the WON, but Tom's around and can correct that. I'd be surprised if either voted in the WON Awards, but I'm not even sure if sending Dave a ballot would get it counted. I don't sub to the WON at the moment. I have no idea if Dave would take a WON Awards ballot that I send in. I still get the HOF Ballot, though I confess that I've missed the deadline two out of the last three years. So who knows.

 

John

[jdw]

Guys who really like lucha, I guess. Can't mean the guys who write on that actual site, considering there's only six of them, not exactly a consolidated voter base.

No but there are a lot of smarts who take their cues from tom, Phil and to a lesser extent SLL.

 

I would completly agree that they do.

 

But smarts who download online aren't a 1:1 match to Paying WON Subs, nor a 1:1 for WON Voters. Probably not remotely close, though I'm sure a lot read read the WON or read stuff from the WON like the Buddy Rose bio getting passed around.

 

That's what I was trying to figure out with the comment earlier in the thread: how did the match get that high up.

 

John

[jdw]

To clarify for jdw, Dave hasn't opened up voting to non-subscribers.

That answers that one.

 

 

I'm sure Segunda Caida's pimping of the match helped, but part of it was also that it was a weak year for candidates (no Japanese or ROH matches that were universally raved about as MOTY favorites) and Panther dropping his mask was put over in the sheets as one of the biggest surprises in wrestling history and the biggest moment in recent lucha history.

That makes a bit of sense.

 

John

[tomk]

don't recall those matches doing exceptionally well in the WON Awards. I'd frankly be surprised if 33% of the voters from the time of Panther-Machine are still voting now, or that 33% of the voters now were voters then. You really think a lot of the folks who voted for that match have watched much Panther over the years and have a clue about his work? I don't think Dave has that huge of a *paying* readership that's huge Lucha marks.

That’s not the argument I’m making.

Of course I don’t have highregard for the average Observer voter’s knowledge of lucha or anything else.

 

But you’re original statement was that you didn’t think people who were familiar with Blue Panther’s work would think well of this match. That seemed ridiculous to me. My response is I can’t think of a better mask match in Panther’s career. I’m a guy who tries to track down all the Blue Panther footage I can get my hands on. It placed well on cubsfan tapatia awards which is a pretty small group (of one would hope folks familiar with Panther’s work). I don't see any reason to believe that it wouldn't appeal to people who are familiar with Panther's work.

 

 

TKGFirst two falls are short by 93 standards. This is 2008 CMLL where the length of match falls is about what you expect.

 

 

jdw And I'm suppose to think that's great?

You complained about the length of the falls. The complaint read to me like the functional equivalent of complaining that Austin v Taker wasn’t 2/3 falls broadway.

 

For comparison’s sake the mask match where Ultimo Guerrero gets revenge for fellow lagunero Blue Panther and takes Villano V’s mask had a two minute first fall a second fall that was a little over a minute and a third fall that went about six minutes.

 

Or if you want to go to Blue Panther’s big run in 93ish his mask match with Love Machine had a first fall that went four minutes, second fall that went about 5 that ended with a DQ (Panther winning two falls in a row).

 

Blue Panther v Vulcano had an under two minute first fall that ended in DQ when Panther refused to stop attacking opponent in the ropes. Antonio Pena came out and removed the ref and then replaces with a face ref and you get a two minute second fall that ends in DQ when Vulcano refuses to break at ropes and about a nine to ten minute third fall.

 

Personally, I don't find *quicky* mask pulling finishes to falls being too dramatic.

Again neither were quicky mask pulls. Both are actually accidental mask removals were wrestler teases mask removal has his second advise against it and then accidentally removes mask. And neither is a quick fall. sure I would have liked a little longer falls but again I would have liked Austin/Undertaker to go broadway.

 

 

TKGVillano V didn't so much "wander" to the back as he was helped to the back by his second.

 

 

jdwHe actually wandered back.

First fall ends with Panther’s mask ripped off. Villano V is pissed that he accidentally removed mask and was DQed so he rips mask off and throws it at crowd. Panther goes to the back to get replacement mask. Second fall ends with Villano’s mask ripped off. Perro Jr puts towel over Villano’s head and protects him from the faces while Villano V goes to back to get new mask. He comes back out with Perrito leading and commisoner pushing him toward ring. Wandering suggests aimlessly milling about. That wasn’t what happened.

 

tkg The heel going to the back to regroup between falls, wrestler knocked out on floor between falls coming too upset, wrestler being taken to hospital commandeering ambulance and coming back is kind of classic big match restart moment.

 

 

jdwReally? Which lucha match had hospital and commandeering ambulance spot? Is this another of the stupid things Konnan brought back from the US to "improve" lucha?

Again that’s not the point I was making.

 

But

 

1)Yes Pena did commandeering ambulance spots.

2)Diego Chico Corrales spitting out his mouth piece allowing his trainer to take his time to clean it and return it is a match restart spot that adds additional question and drama to a match. Stops and restarts are part of wrestling formula. Medical team removes a guy for him to come back is a standard spot. Lucha with its multiple falls takes advantage of that a lot, guys get bandaged up between falls, get new masks between falls etc all the time.

 

 

Stops and restarts are typical of wrestling, typical of matches with multiple falls/rounds, typical of lucha. It is a storytelling device that works.

 

As to segundacaida types and who votes in awards. I think Phil has a current observer sub. I remember voting in 2007 but no sub this year, I don't know if Phil has ever put a ballot together. Based on numbers of people who bought the PWFG survey comp I would feel safe assuming that at least 60 of our readers spend the money on an observer subscription and my general sense of people is that probably 27 of those are organized enough to actually submit a ballot.

Perhaps I'm underestimating there.

 

Despite not having a sub I do read the observer pretty regularly and don't remember it getting really more than a paragraph when it happened and I would guess that Meltzer still hasn't watched it (hadn't watched it at time of awards issue). I don't remember the sheet coverage being about major upset or big moment, so much as there was "business" coverage about it being hotshotted as result of not having either Mistico or Perro available and the poor gate, etc. I remember being surprised that it did as well as it did in voting. But really its not like it got a ton of votes.

 

WORKED MATCH OF THE YEAR

 

1. SHAWN MICHAELS VS. CHRIS JERICHO 10/5 PORTLAND (179) 1,146

2. Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels 3/30 Orlando (140) 933

3. Kurt Angle vs. Samoa Joe 4/13 Lowell (33) 622

4. Blue Panther vs. Villano V 9/19 Mexico City (30) 594

5. Kenta Kobashi & Yoshihiro Takayama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama 12/2/07 Tokyo (36) 539

6. Nigel McGuinness vs. Austin Aries 12/29/07 New York (37) 475

7. Nigel McGuinness vs. Bryan Danielson 2/23 New York (49) 405

8. Undertaker vs. Edge 3/30 Orlando (22) 386

9. Naomichi Marufuji & Katsuhiko Nakajima vs. KENTA & Kota Ibushi 9/14 Tokyo (39) 360

10. Naruki Doi & Masato Yoshino & Genki Horiguchi vs. Cima & Ryo Saito & Dragon Kid 3/29 Orlando (12) 348

So Blue Panther v Viallno V got 30 first place votes and would need to have gotten at minimum 148 second and third place votes. Which isn't really a ton of votes.

[kjh]

Despite not having a sub I do read the observer pretty regularly and don't remember it getting really more than a paragraph when it happened and I would guess that Meltzer still hasn't watched it (hadn't watched it at time of awards issue). I don't remember the sheet coverage being about major upset or big moment, so much as there was "business" coverage about it being hotshotted as result of not having either Mistico or Perro available and the poor gate, etc.

I have to disagree with this, as Bryan Alvarez ran the hyperbolic headline "Biggest upset in 30 years" in the Figure Four. Meltzer didn't give it the cover story treatment, but pretty much concurred with Bryan's headline in his story and gave it more coverage than a typical big CMLL show. Sure he didn't review the whole match, but that's par for the Mexican course nowadays.