The Cancellation of Jim Cornette

[Migs]

11 hours ago, joeg said:

Yep. The NBA fanbase skews younger than any major American sport. It also skews more liberal than any major American sport. It also skews more African American than any major American sport.... What has wrestling done in the last 20 years to appeal to young African Americans? Anything? Does any here know any black guy under 35 who watches wrestling? I don't but I know plenty who grew up watching it and can talk about the good old days when they were a kid and there were characters they could relate to. 

Maybe they should try a crossover with MLB... their fanbase is most 30 to 50 something white guys too.... 

I actually do! (Although not young-young, more like early 30s) To the point made here, they're generally people also wrapped up in comic book culture as well, not "sports fans."

Also, I have not seen Itoh perform yet, but my friends who like both drag and wrestling are big Itoh fans. 

I think this point about wrestling fandom moving away from overlap with sports fans is a huge, prescient point that I think is driving a lot of the disagreement in wrestling circles online. 

[Mad Dog]

Thinking about the racial breakdown of shows I have been to attendance wise the last 5-6 years. RoH actually had the most African American fans in attendance but barely any women. NXT was probably the whitest show but also had a heavier female attendance especially when Bayley/Charlotte/Sasha was there. Chikara probably had the most children and oddly enough old ladies there. 

[joeg]

You look at American wrestling in general since WCW and ECW died and there hasn't been a lot done to appeal to young fans, Hispanic fans, African American fans, or female fans. Cornette is right when he says that wrestling is best when it casts as wide a net as possible. The last time a promotion on a major TV network pushed an African American as a top guy was in the late 90s when WWF pushed the Rock and WCW pushed Booker T. There are so guys that should have been that top African American star over the last 20 years- Shelton Benjamin, Mark Henry, Bobby Lashley, Monty Brown (who both WWE and TNA missed the boat on), Big E, Keith Lee. But nope. The last time somebody under 25 was pushed as a top guy on American TV was 2004-2005ish when WWE pushed John Cena and Randy Orton and TNA pushed AJ Styles and Samoa Joe. The last time a wrestler of hispanic heritage was pushed as a top guy was Rey Mysterio in 2006. I'll admit that WWE has done an ok job trying to appeal to a female fan base the past few years.

I thought with AEW, Tony Khan would be smart enough to shake thing up some you know? That it wouldn't be more of the same that we've seen the last 15 to 20 years. He talked about being a fan of Mid South and Bill Watts. Nobody did a better job appealing to as many different types of fans from as many different backgrounds as Watts. But nope. The top 4 guys in AEW are Omega, Moxley and the Bucks. 4 pasty, nerdy, white guys. So of course the only demo that they are going to draw is that nerdy single white guy demo (ie me and most of us here) that wrestling and comic books have already had locked down for the last 10 to 20 years. When Cornette rants about these things he may seem outdated or racially insensitive but he's 100% right about who and what today's fanbase is and why. 

[Blehschmidt]

1 hour ago, Mad Dog said:

Thinking about the racial breakdown of shows I have been to attendance wise the last 5-6 years. RoH actually had the most African American fans in attendance but barely any women. NXT was probably the whitest show but also had a heavier female attendance especially when Bayley/Charlotte/Sasha was there. Chikara probably had the most children and oddly enough old ladies there. 

Similar experience here with Ring of Honor. I've been to a lot of indy shows, and ROH tends to draw a significantly higher number of African American fans than any other shows I have been too. 

Mind you that these shows were in Virginia and Pennsylvania, so part of me wonders if this could potentially be because it might be something of a "classier" product than your regular hometown indy show, and is likely to draw more smart fans and the like instead of the largely white trash crowd that comes to the other. (and I say that having ring announced the local shows for quite some time) so maybe folks who wouldn't normally attend shows because of that crowd feel more empowered to attend because of it.

Chikara was similar in that when I saw them in Ohio, it drew a very Chikara crowd, yet when they came to the Pittsburgh area and ran back to back with the local indy, you had drunk rednecks screaming "He looks like a tampon" and "Faggot" at one of the wrestlers, and pretty much shitting on everything on the show the entire time. 

[Infinit]

The funny thing about Jim's bellyaching over Kenny Omega and his buddies is that in 83/84 there were probably more than a few curmudgeon old vets in the locker room who probably called Ricky Morton something akin to "Twinkletoes McFingerBang" lol

[El-P]

Ole Anderson was pretty adamant on the fact Ric Flair did not know how to work properly and therefore would not draw.

[sek69]

Every era has old farts saying the youngin's can't work and will ruin the business. Dave mentions people even said it about Harley Race back in the day. The only difference is now the old farts can beat everyone over the head with their opinions on social media and podcasts. 

[C.S.]

4 hours ago, joeg said:

There are so guys that should have been that top African American star over the last 20 years- Shelton Benjamin, Mark Henry, Bobby Lashley, Monty Brown (who both WWE and TNA missed the boat on), Big E, Keith Lee. But nope.

My thoughts on your list:

Shelton Benjamin: Nah, he was "a good hand" - but that's it. Never had the charisma necessary to get over the hump. Also kind of overrated in-ring, if you ask me. Very good, yes, but I can barely think of great matches he'd had (in WWE at least). Lack of opportunities to have them? Probably. But still.

Mark Henry: Well, his Hall of Pain run and World Title reign were pretty incredible, but yeah, it could have been longer and I wish he had gotten another run with the title during the Cena feud.

Bobby Lashley: I'm not a huge fan, but it's apparent that he probably would've gotten a World Title run if he had stayed the first time. This time, the best he can probably hope for is a short Henry reign.

Monty Brown: Family obligations ultimately pulled him out of the business, so this is a big "what if?" scenario. Then again, I don't see WWE ever pushing him as a top guy. In TNA, the old Southern carnies probably had excuse after excuse: "He's too young, he's too green, there's plentuh o' time," etc. while chomping down pork rinds and washing them back with grits 'n gravy 'n moonshine. 

Big E: Yeah, if a white guy looked and worked like this, he would've had opportunity after opportunity.

Keith Lee: Too soon to say. He was pushed to the moon in NXT, so let's see what happens.

Others you didn't mention:

Kofi Kingston: Kofimania was amazing, but it ended in six seconds and he was instantly back in the midcard afterward. Damning.

Xavier Woods: I think he will eventually have a run with the big belt, especially if Big E does, just so New Day can have that legacy and future HOF induction as three former World Champions.

Velveteen Dream: I think he would've been pushed to the stratosphere if his *ahem* "personal demons" and "immaturity" (WWE code phrases for what's really going on) didn't get in the way.

Ahmed Johnson: I think he would've been the first black WWF (World) Champion if he wasn't so limited, injury prone, and apparently hard to work with/too stiff/whatever it was.

Ron Simmons: It's a testament to him that he still had a great WWE career after being DOA with the Roman gladiator Farooq Asad gimmick and look. But, man, what could have been...

Big Zeke (Ezekiel Jackson): Was Intercontinental Champion for some reason. Was a dick to Daniel Bryan on a plane for some reason. A completely irrelevant footnote otherwise.

(2 Cold) Scorpio: To be fair, whatever magic he once had was gone by the time he showed up in WWE as Flash Funk. His pot-smoking ways probably also soured him with the tight-ass cokeheads who could decide his future.

The Godfather: I'm kind of surprised he didn't get a brief World Title run in the Russo-era. People would've popped for it huge.

R-Truth: He has found his niche and extended his career by several years as a great comedy worker, but man, anyone remember when he came across as completely unhinged and made a water bottle look like a fearsome weapon? I hope he gets a "thank you" World Title run before he retires. He should IMO.

MVP: Absolutely someone who should have been World Champion. If a white guy had all the tools he had, there would be no hesitation.

[sek69]

Xavier Woods will almost certainly get a run at some point unless some kind of major fallout happens, he's a good company guy and his gaming interests probably opened a lot of doors for WWE that no one else would have had the knowledge/ability to open. 

[NintendoLogic]

The idea that you appeal to a particular demographic by pushing a member of that demographic is outdated and patronizing. It can work if the wrestler is outstanding in other respects, but you can't count on audiences to get behind someone solely on the basis of demographic affinity. Dave has told the story of a WWF house show in Oakland headlined by JYD vs. Terry Funk. Not only was the crowd mostly white, most of the black fans in attendance were cheering for Funk. You can say that WWE is doing a good job of trying to appeal to women, but the real world effect has been the opposite. It was noted a couple of years ago that women being pushed more and given more TV time coincided with a noticeable decline in the female audience. Historically, the most reliable way to draw in female fans has been with good-looking pretty boys who can garner sympathy by selling a beating. New Japan is probably the #1 promotion in the world when it comes to drawing female fans, and they do it with handsome charismatic babyfaces. I mean, think about it. If you were a woman, who would you rather watch, Kazuchika Okada or Lacey Evans? Jinder Mahal is another example. He was supposed to help WWE in India, but his title reign was a flop and he didn't even make it to their India tour as champion. It seems most Indians would rather watch white (or at least non-Indian) guys who are good wrestlers than a guy of Indian descent who's a terrible wrestler.

[Robert S]

Mark Henry's chances as being The Guy were destroyed during that time when they tried to get him to quit by throwing all shit they could think of at him. Afterwards it took almost a decade before people (besides the super-hardcores) were willing to take him serious again.

By the time Simmons got to the WWF, I think he was already broken down too much for more than a short run.

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

The idea that you appeal to a particular demographic by pushing a member of that demographic is outdated and patronizing. It can work if the wrestler is outstanding in other respects, but you can't count on audiences to get behind someone solely on the basis of demographic affinity. 

Totally agree. It's telling people are always using the Mid-South argument, totally ignoring the fact that Bill Watts *was* a racist, and the fact he tried multiple times to replace JYD by random-afro-american-worker, totally overlooking the fact JYD was a huge draw first of all because he was charismatic as fuck, not because of the color of his skin. Cornette's opinion are dated on this too. He's the guy who had such disdain for his own audience in SMW that he thought he could draw by playing the race card with a racist audience, but it failed.

19 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

New Japan is probably the #1 promotion in the world when it comes to drawing female fans, and they do it with handsome charismatic babyfaces.

I think it might actually be Dragon Gate, but the process is the same, even moreso.

19 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

If you were a woman, who would you rather watch, Kazuchika Okada or Lacey Evans? 

Completely agree. There's an odd denial about the *overall* sexualization of pro-wrestling. Tanahashi drew women. No shit he did. Lacey Evans is gonna draw male viewers (older male I guess, considering where she is at right now in term of storyline). No shit. 

I'm extremely ambivalent about this idea of "representativity" in pop-culture as a whole anyway (which I find usually extremely hypocritical and manufactured), but that's another matter entirely. 

Right now IMPACT has Rich Swann and Moose feuding on top, last year they had Chris Bey and Willie Mack fighting over the X-div championship, their tag team women champ are Hogan & Steelz. I would be very surprised if that made any difference whatsoever in their audience.

[Badlittlekitten]

To their credit (heh) WWE are doing a decent job at the moment with this. Probably better than any time I can remember. Street Profits, Sasha Banks and Bianca Belair are some of their most prominently featured acts and being pushed hard on TV. Montez Ford and Sasha in particular feel they can resonate with a younger audience. 

The Hurt Business are a cool group and Bobby Lashley's getting the push of his career (after years of pissing about).

[joeg]

20 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

The idea that you appeal to a particular demographic by pushing a member of that demographic is outdated and patronizing. It can work if the wrestler is outstanding in other respects, but you can't count on audiences to get behind someone solely on the basis of demographic affinity. Dave has told the story of a WWF house show in Oakland headlined by JYD vs. Terry Funk. Not only was the crowd mostly white, most of the black fans in attendance were cheering for Funk. You can say that WWE is doing a good job of trying to appeal to women, but the real world effect has been the opposite. It was noted a couple of years ago that women being pushed more and given more TV time coincided with a noticeable decline in the female audience. Historically, the most reliable way to draw in female fans has been with good-looking pretty boys who can garner sympathy by selling a beating. New Japan is probably the #1 promotion in the world when it comes to drawing female fans, and they do it with handsome charismatic babyfaces. I mean, think about it. If you were a woman, who would you rather watch, Kazuchika Okada or Lacey Evans? Jinder Mahal is another example. He was supposed to help WWE in India, but his title reign was a flop and he didn't even make it to their India tour as champion. It seems most Indians would rather watch white (or at least non-Indian) guys who are good wrestlers than a guy of Indian descent who's a terrible wrestler.

I said WWE is doing an ok job appealing to women lately. OK not good. Roman Reigns and Seth Rollins are some nice eye candy when on the babyface side and they've pushed the women's division as something other than objects of preteen lust. Its a start. And no its not an outdated and patronizing way of promoting and promoting stars. If it were outdated UFC, Bellator, Golden Boy, Premiere Championship Boxing, and Top Rank wouldn't still be promoting ethnic champions to a specific demographic. The top PPV draws of the past 20 years are Oscar Dela Hoya, Canelo Alvarez, Conor McGregor, and Floyd Mayweather. All of whom had or have a  a following largely made up of people from the same ethnic heritage. 

[sek69]

14 minutes ago, NintendoLogic said:

The idea that you appeal to a particular demographic by pushing a member of that demographic is outdated and patronizing. It can work if the wrestler is outstanding in other respects, but you can't count on audiences to get behind someone solely on the basis of demographic affinity

Junkyard Dog drew tons of black fans (especially kids) to Mid South because A: kids saw someone who looked like them on TV and B: he was charismatic as hell.  Watts' attempt to push other black wrestlers as the new JYD after he left and all of them flopping to one degree or another shows how important the second part is, but it doesn't negate the first.

Look at the social media of pretty much any wrestler not a cis white guy and you'll see examples of how representation matters, but it does require a little more effort from the promotion than "here's a minority wrestler, please come to our show".

[joeg]

2 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Junkyard Dog drew tons of black fans (especially kids) to Mid South because A: kids saw someone who looked like them on TV and B: he was charismatic as hell.  Watts' attempt to push other black wrestlers as the new JYD after he left and all of them flopping to one degree or another shows how important the second part is, but it doesn't negate the first.

Look at the social media of pretty much any wrestler not a cis white guy and you'll see examples of how representation matters, but it does require a little more effort from the promotion than "here's a minority wrestler, please come to our show".

Exactly my point... to draw as wide a variety of fans as possible its important to have as wide a variety of stars as possible. 

[sek69]

I always think back to the video of MVP, (and...wasn't it Shad Gaspard too? } tearing up watching Kofi win the title at Mania. It wasn't so much for Kofi himself but for what the moment meant. 

[Robert S]

1 hour ago, joeg said:

Exactly my point... to draw as wide a variety of fans as possible its important to have as wide a variety of stars as possible. 

It's not even (just) to draw among certain demographics, it's just common sense. The bigger the variety of the roster (small, tall, fat, muscular, skinny, young, old, black, white, latino, Asian ...), the more recognizable the indivuals are (which in the end should mean more money for your promotion, but hey, the brand is the star now). Anyone remember early 2000s OVW where (at least on upper body shots) everybody looked the same? That is a perfect example on how NOT to do that.

[sek69]

"The brand is the star" is low key one of the more damaging things to happen to wrestling. Not only did it make the largest promotion just a collection of interchangeable cogs, it caused a whole generation of indy wrestlers to train themselves into thinking that is the Way Things Are instead of it being the star based business it always was. 

[C.S.]

2 hours ago, sek69 said:

MVP

I forgot about him in my list. (Will edit to add now.)

Absolutely someone who should have been World Champion. If a white guy had all the tools he had, there would be no hesitation. 

[joeg]

44 minutes ago, Robert S said:

It's not even (just) to draw among certain demographics, it's just common sense. The bigger the variety of the roster (small, tall, fat, muscular, skinny, young, old, black, white, latino, Asian ...), the more recognizable the indivuals are (which in the end should mean more money for your promotion, but hey, the brand is the star now). Anyone remember early 2000s OVW where (at least on upper body shots) everybody looked the same? That is a perfect example on how NOT to do that.

Exactly. The idea that for awhile they were only signing guys to developmental who were under 29 years old, between 6'2" and 6'6" and between 225 and 275 pounds was fucking insane to me. This was at the same time where probably the 3 best workers in the US were Danielson, Low Ki, and Joe. None of whom matched that criteria. But guys like Rob Conway and Rene Dupree did. I think thats part of the problem with modern wrestling in general. Nobody stands out in AEW because they are all average sized guys, no fat guys, not many tall guys, not many big muscle guys. Just a lot of guys who are 5'10" 190 with dad bods. In WWE its all dudes who look like they stepped out of a Calvin Klein ad. 

[sek69]

Until recently, it seemed like every NXT signee class was the same bunch of interchangeable white dudes. 

Strangely enough, they have a much better record of diversity when it comes to signing women, even if you still have to get the standard WWE Upgrades to get a push.

[joeg]

3 hours ago, C.S. said:

 

Keith Lee: Too soon to say. He was pushed to the moon in NXT, so let's see what happens.

 

No he's deader than Dillinger. They put him in a singlet that made him look like he had tits, had him job on tv for guys half his size multiple weeks in a row, and had him lose to Braun Strowman after a kick in the balls. He's done. Dead. Not recovering anytime soon. Any chance he ever had of making money for them, dead. Gone. Remember when Matt Bloom returned in 2012 with a Great Muta knock off gimmick? Yeah that level of dead. 

[C.S.]

1 hour ago, joeg said:

No he's deader than Dillinger. They put him in a singlet that made him look like he had tits, had him job on tv for guys half his size multiple weeks in a row, and had him lose to Braun Strowman after a kick in the balls. He's done. Dead. Not recovering anytime soon. Any chance he ever had of making money for them, dead. Gone. Remember when Matt Bloom returned in 2012 with a Great Muta knock off gimmick? Yeah that level of dead. 

Nah... If Henry can recover from years of bullshit, so too can Keith Lee.

I'm not saying anything about his push or presentation has been ideal so far - not even close - but he's not a corpse just yet.

[sek69]

Yeah Lee is far from dead, I'd say. things have definitely been less than stellar so far, but we've seen people bounce back from worse things than a bumpy start.