AJPW four pillars vs NJPW cornerstones

[MoS]

Dave Meltzer on Observer Radio recently started comparing the AJPW 90s pillars to the current NJPW top guys - funnily enough, it started with him saying "Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi are on the level of the modern NJPW guys" which made me laugh  for many reasons - but I thought it would make for an interesting discussion. 

He compared Tanahashi to Kobashi which I agree is a good analogy. He said Tanahashi has more charisma than 90s Kobashi which is insane to me. I do think there's a spiritual connection between the two. Tanahashi idolised Shawn Michaels and Kobashi was Michaels with excellent offence and a bit less drama. I think Kobashi blows Tanahashi out of the water in pretty much every aspect, including crying. Maybe it's a cultural thing with Tanahashi and I'm missing it. 

He said Okada is better than Misawa. I think Misawa came across as the ace more than Okada to me ; I don't think anyone in wrestling has had that kind of aura. I do think Okada is better than Misawa overall though. He has more creative ways to structure his matches imo, and he is more versatile and has had a lot of good matches with many different kind of opponents. His dropkick > Misawa's elbow and I never thought I would write that. 

He said Kawada was a more complete Ishii but I would say Ibushi in a lot of ways is a better parallel (I was about to ask if this means Omega is Taue but then I slapped myself). It is not perfect because Ibushi is from a later generation, unlike Kawada, who was a peer. I think Ibushi, as he is transitioning to heavyweight, is adopting a strike-based arsenal reminiscent of Kawada. One thought that struck me while watching WK this year was that Ibushi might have the most viscerally exciting style in current New Japan, much like Kawada did in All Japan. Of course, he is a natural babyface while Kawada was a prick badass, but Ibushi has started showing a more "psycho" side recently and it might be the direction he goes to as his career evolves. He might one day become better than Kawada. But as of now, Kawada is better. He has a more engaging character, and is actually better at selling and getting sympathy than Ibushi is imo. 

Dave did not discuss Taue. I have honestly no idea who Taue would be. No one can be Taue he is too awesome. 

It would also be interesting to compare Gedo's booking to Baba's in the 90s. Gedo, much like Baba, has the reputation of being conservative, but I think he has done a better job elevating talent and creating new stars than Baba. 

[Sweet Brown Koko]

Where does Naito fit in all this? Would he be Taue?

[World's Worst Man]

How does Jay White sound as a Taue comparable? He's the least flashy of the group and is a great prick.

I like Okada over Misawa. Misawa was mechanically amazing but I never really got how he became so over, especially when you saw Kobashi coming up later who had a better overall package but never quite reached that level (maybe because of the overall downturn in business). Plus Okada seems like a fun, goofy guy outside the ring which I like.

Speaking as someone who still cares about selling, I'd say Okada, Naito, Ishii and Ibushi are still at or near the level of the four pillars in terms of ability. To the modern fan that doesn't care so much about selling and is all about the workrate, they would clearly rate higher.

[sek69]

11 hours ago, MoS said:

It would also be interesting to compare Gedo's booking to Baba's in the 90s. Gedo, much like Baba, has the reputation of being conservative, but I think he has done a better job elevating talent and creating new stars than Baba. 

I would agree with this, but the one notable exception would be Baba famously making the call to have Misawa go over Jumbo based on how the crowd was reacting at the show as opposed to Gedo dragging Naito's big moment (at least) one year too far before pulling the trigger.

[MoS]

Yeah that is indeed a big exception, something Gedo has never really made. 

Naito and White are good shout-outs. Taue was someone whom Baba considered naturally talented and charismatic - and IIRC, would get frustrated with his lack of work sometimes. Now I really want to live in a world where Taue went to Mexico, formed a faction and started calling himself tranquilo. 

[Jmare007]

13 hours ago, MoS said:

He said Okada is better than Misawa. I think Misawa came across as the ace more than Okada to me ; I don't think anyone in wrestling has had that kind of aura. I do think Okada is better than Misawa overall though. He has more creative ways to structure his matches imo, and he is more versatile and has had a lot of good matches with many different kind of opponents. His dropkick > Misawa's elbow and I never thought I would write that. 

 

Never thought I'd get my heart broken in PWO but here we are...

[Jmare007]

2 hours ago, World's Worst Man said:

 

I like Okada over Misawa. Misawa was mechanically amazing but I never really got how he became so over, especially when you saw Kobashi coming up later who had a better overall package but never quite reached that level (maybe because of the overall downturn in business). Plus Okada seems like a fun, goofy guy outside the ring which I like.

 

 

 

Seriously, what is going on guys?

[MoS]

9 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Never thought I'd get my heart broken in PWO but here we are...

Trust me, it broke my heart too. Misawa-san elbowing losers is one of my favourite things in wrestling. And an elbow can be done a lot more than a dropkick and in more ways and situations so it's a far more useful thing to have. 

I just love Okada's dropkicks and how he inserts them in his matches.

[sek69]

I think it's partly due to Misawa being an intensely private guy and Okada living in the world of 24/7 social media. 

I love Okada and think that if you put a gun to my head I would have to say he's probably the better wrestler, but the Four Pillars era was my intro to Japanese wrestling. To this day I still get goosebumps hearing the crowd chanting MI-SA-WA while Spartan X plays, something that doesn't really happen with anything else of that era or since. 

But I have to be honest, I think Okada is the better of the two bell to bell. Obviously Misawa was involved in some of the greatest matches of all time, but Okada has that innate ability to have the best match most of his opponents have ever had. 

[Jmare007]

I think style is a huge thing in Okada vs Misawa. I for one grew tired of Okada's shtick like 3 years ago and find most of the first third/half of his matches pointless and boring - of course there are exceptions -, so him going 30+ minutes is always a sign I'll fast forward to the 12-15 minute mark. Misawa wasn't perfect on this regard too but I never found myself automatically doing that once I kinda knew how long the match was going to be. New Japan reached a point like late 2000's NOAH for me in the sense that I just keep feeling like most of the stuff done in the begging is boring filler.

Now, what Okada is fucking incredible at is 2nd halfs and finishing sequences. To this day I still can't figure out how he's able to pull off contrived 10-13 minutes sequences full of reversals and false finishes and have me when I really don't like that kinda stuff in my wrestling anymore, when someone else does it I honestly get bummed out about a match. But Okada just knows how to fucking do them....are they better than Misawa's slow burned comebacks? That's a debate I'll love to read. I think I'm too attached to Misawa to not give him the nod but this is factor where I can totally see a case for the New Japan Ace.

I don't think Okada has an uncanny ability to give his opponents their best match on their career either. Not saying Misawa had it (he didn't). It's kind of a non factor between the two, imo.

 

Regarding the dropkick vs elbow. I just don't see it at all. I guess the dropkick is visually more stunning but that's pretty much it. As a transition move Misawa's elbow is unmatched - and I think Tanahashi kinda tried to use dragon screws and leg work as a similar tool in the early 2010s -, as a strike is incredibly vicious and sounds disgusting. Also, the elbow actually ended matches, and it gave a mega Ace like Misawa some HUGE Ws. Okada's dropkick resets the action and gets a pop...Misawa's elbow was a fucking weapon.

[sek69]

23 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

I don't think Okada has an uncanny ability to give his opponents their best match on their career either. Not saying Misawa has (he didn't). It's kind of a non factor between the two, imo.

I mean, most of the last few years of New Japan were Okada doing just that, but YMMV I suppose. Okada vs Basically Anyone Not Tanahashi resulted in better matches than the opponent normally would have with anyone else. That was pretty much the theme of  last year's G1, "Can Okada get the best match possible out of this guy?" IIRC.

[Jmare007]

5 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I mean, most of the last few years of New Japan were Okada doing just that, but YMMV I suppose. Okada vs Basically Anyone Not Tanahashi resulted in better matches than the opponent normally would have with anyone else. That was pretty much the theme of  last year's G1, "Can Okada get the best match possible out of this guy?" IIRC.

That's why I said it's all about the style. To me, last year's G1 was all B Block giving us the goods. Can't even say I remember every Okada match from Block A but even if was the best out of his group (which I think he was) I didn't believe it was an important badge on his incredible career or anything.

The list of people Okada has had their unquestioned best match with, to me, are: Shibata, Tanahashi, Kenny Omega and I guess Fale and Sanada (can't say I've followed closely both of their singles career in the last 4 years though). Guys like Ibushi, Nakamura, Goto, Naito, MiSu, Ishii, Sabre, Makabe, Karl Anderson, AJ Styles have had better matches with other people. I wanna make clear that I don't think this is a big deal. Just that I don't see the " give his opponents their best match of their lifes" argument for him (he's no Daniel Bryan ).

 

 

 

 

[Boss Rock]

I'll have more to say, but I will say that I think Misawa, one of my all-time favorites, is better than Okada, my current favorite.

[MoS]

The dropkick elbow thing was honestly a more tongue in cheek comment about how much I love Okada's dropkicks. Misawa's elbow was awesome and far more important and useful than Okada's dropkicks, I agree. But the fact that he can get believable near falls in 2020 off dropkicks and lariats is a salient point.

[joeg]

AJPW's roster from the 90s blows 2010s NJPW out of the water. I think Okada's total body of work as a babyface ace may eventually eclipse  Misawa and  Kobashi, however I don't think Okada's peak either as a worker or as a draw even comes close to those two so far. Okada's only 32 and hasn't had any serious injuries. Both Misawa's and Kobashi's work was on a major downslope by that point in their careers. If anything I see Okada getting better over the next few years, I envision his career arc to be more similar to Akiyama or Tenryu, where he ends up with two and a half decades of really good if not quite perfect matches as opposed to Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi who had 6 to 8 years of perfect matches. 

 

[Jetlag]

WTF is going on here guys? I'm not into everything the AJPW crew did, but modern NJPW is terrible. I wouldn't take any of these guys over Dan Kroffat. If you want a more balanced comparison, do Okada vs. Takao Ohmori.

[MoS]

I actually agree that 90s AJPW blows away modern NJPW overall. Okada, however, I do think is in the contention for greatest of all time, and that's partly because he is perhaps the only person regularly working really long matches who can keep me invested in the 2nd half of the matches. I think Ibushi has the potential to be one of the greatest, but his selling is a bit spotty and I am guessing with the NJPW main event style being what it is, it's not going to get better.

[NintendoLogic]

I can't buy into Okada as a GOAT candidate because he never comes across as a dangerous tough guy. With just about every other ace, there was a sense that they could snap and fuck someone up if pushed far enough. I never get that with Okada. The match with Jay White at Wrestle Kingdom might be the most egregious example. With the way it had been built up, he should have been at White's throat from the get-go. Instead, he came out and had a normal Okada match with no real sense of urgency or aggression.

[Boss Rock]

On 3/7/2020 at 1:00 AM, joeg said:

AJPW's roster from the 90s blows 2010s NJPW out of the water. I think Okada's total body of work as a babyface ace may eventually eclipse  Misawa and  Kobashi, however I don't think Okada's peak either as a worker or as a draw even comes close to those two so far. Okada's only 32 and hasn't had any serious injuries. Both Misawa's and Kobashi's work was on a major downslope by that point in their careers. If anything I see Okada getting better over the next few years, I envision his career arc to be more similar to Akiyama or Tenryu, where he ends up with two and a half decades of really good if not quite perfect matches as opposed to Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi who had 6 to 8 years of perfect matches. 

 

That's where I'm at I think. Okada's body of work has become increasingly impressive over the years and barring any sort of major injury or drop-off, he will definitely solidify himself as an all-time great but not quite a number 1 contender.

[Boss Rock]

Going back to Okada giving folks their best matches, I dont agree with that necessarily but he's usually going to get at least get something decent out of his opponent even if tends to stick a bit too much to his formula at times. The 2018 G1 saw the biggest talent disparity between blocks in recent memory and yet he gave nearly everyone their best match.

[The Thread Killer]

On 3/6/2020 at 8:10 AM, MoS said:

Dave Meltzer on Observer Radio recently started comparing the AJPW 90s pillars to the current NJPW top guys - funnily enough, it started with him saying "Misawa, Kawada and Kobashi are on the level of the modern NJPW guys" which made me laugh for many reasons...He compared Tanahashi to Kobashi...He said Tanahashi has more charisma than 90s Kobashi...He said Okada is better than Misawa.

Meltzer drives me nuts when he makes statements like this.  He pretty much gave Jim Cornette an aneurysm a while back when he said that The Young Bucks were a modern version of The Midnight Express. Even if Meltzer honestly thinks the modern New Japan guys are as good as the "Four Pillars" it's pointless to make those kind of comparisons because it's just going to aggravate people.  I remember when Meltzer used to try and report facts about the Pro Wrestling business.  Now it seems like he spends half his time trolling people on Twitter, kissing AEW's butt and making odd comparisons in what almost seems like a deliberate attempt to provoke an argument. I don't know if Meltzer is losing his shit because the Pro Wrestling podcast business has exposed how many times he got worked by his sources over the years and eroded his reputation, or what his deal is.  But it's equal parts sad and annoying.

Oh and for the record...nobody is better than Misawa.

[NintendoLogic]

I don't think Meltzer is losing his shit at all. If he is, it certainly isn't due to obvious con men like Prichard and Bischoff. He seems to be doing better than ever personally and professionally. However, I am amused by how he abruptly shifted from "Wrestling is about time and place, you can't compare matches from different eras" to "Matches of today are clearly superior to those of the past and here's why."

[ragemaster]

1 hour ago, The Thread Killer said:

Meltzer drives me nuts when he makes statements like this.  He pretty much gave Jim Cornette an aneurysm a while back when he said that The Young Bucks were a modern version of The Midnight Express. Even if Meltzer honestly thinks the modern New Japan guys are as good as the "Four Pillars" it's pointless to make those kind of comparisons because it's just going to aggravate people.  I remember when Meltzer used to try and report facts about the Pro Wrestling business.  Now it seems like he spends half his time trolling people on Twitter, kissing AEW's butt and making odd comparisons in what almost seems like a deliberate attempt to provoke an argument. I don't know if Meltzer is losing his shit because the Pro Wrestling podcast business has exposed how many times he got worked by his sources over the years and eroded his reputation, or what his deal is.  But it's equal parts sad and annoying.

Oh and for the record...nobody is better than Misawa.

Meltzer entitled to make any comparison he wants on his radio show, or in his news letter. If you don't like what he says, don't listen or read it. I think from memory someone bought it up as a write in question to him. Meltzer has always analysed the wrestling in his newsletter and on his radio show's. At the end of the day both the letter and show would be rather short if he didn't do this. The whole point of his radio show is to talk about wrestling and give his opinion on it.

Doesn't mean he's right or you have to agree with him.

Who cares if his views aggravate people into arguments, that's on them for not being able to have a conversation like a sane adult. Everyone now gets so offended if you say anything that they don't personally agree with. If that's the way forward shut down the internet, because what other choice is there?

I cant wait for the thread to start about him saying The Young Bucks vs Omega and Page is the best tag team match he's seen after re watching midnight express vs fantastic and Mitsuharu Misawa/Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada/Akira Taue.

 

For the record Misawa has the same stoic expression and charisma level as Okada does in his matches. 

 

 

[FMKK]

2 hours ago, The Thread Killer said:

Meltzer drives me nuts when he makes statements like this.  He pretty much gave Jim Cornette an aneurysm a while back when he said that The Young Bucks were a modern version of The Midnight Express. Even if Meltzer honestly thinks the modern New Japan guys are as good as the "Four Pillars" it's pointless to make those kind of comparisons because it's just going to aggravate people.  I remember when Meltzer used to try and report facts about the Pro Wrestling business.  Now it seems like he spends half his time trolling people on Twitter, kissing AEW's butt and making odd comparisons in what almost seems like a deliberate attempt to provoke an argument. I don't know if Meltzer is losing his shit because the Pro Wrestling podcast business has exposed how many times he got worked by his sources over the years and eroded his reputation, or what his deal is.  But it's equal parts sad and annoying.

Oh and for the record...nobody is better than Misawa.

I don't really think this is a fair reflection of what he says so much as it's a bit of a stereotype of what other people say about him. He's clearly all in on the modern New Japan style, no pun intended. So I don't see what's so wrong with him saying that he thinks Tanahashi and Okada are in the same pantheon as the AJPW Four Pillars. It's not like he's burying those guys. Sometimes I think he over eggs the pudding with that stuff a bit but I don't think he isn't being genuine. I happened to be reading an old newsletter recently and he was heaping similar praise on an Manami Toyota match in 1992.

Now, if I can admit to a sacrilege, I actually haven't watched a load of the 90s All Japan stuff. I know people who have been around longer than I have will have watched it all to death. I know I can just jump in and start watching on YouTube whenever but I'd rather watch in proper sequence or pick out the essentials in order. Is there anywhere where I could get a good list of that nature?  

[Ricky Jackson]

1 hour ago, FMKK said:

I don't really think this is a fair reflection of what he says so much as it's a bit of a stereotype of what other people say about him. He's clearly all in on the modern New Japan style, no pun intended. So I don't see what's so wrong with him saying that he thinks Tanahashi and Okada are in the same pantheon as the AJPW Four Pillars. It's not like he's burying those guys. Sometimes I think he over eggs the pudding with that stuff a bit but I don't think he isn't being genuine. I happened to be reading an old newsletter recently and he was heaping similar praise on an Manami Toyota match in 1992.

Now, if I can admit to a sacrilege, I actually haven't watched a load of the 90s All Japan stuff. I know people who have been around longer than I have will have watched it all to death. I know I can just jump in and start watching on YouTube whenever but I'd rather watch in proper sequence or pick out the essentials in order. Is there anywhere where I could get a good list of that nature?  

This was a podcast produced by once prolific posters around here that covered 90s AJPW in chronological order. If you want a list of the essentials, each ep has a list of the matches discussed 

https://soundcloud.com/prowrestlingonly/sets/all-japan-excite-series