The greatest cons in wrestling history

[tomk]

Huh?

 

So sending out a free review copy of successful shows that would obviously appeal to a particular reviewers taste is some sort of con?

 

Gabe sending Meltzer unsuccessful shows with matches that wouldn't appeal to Dave's taste would make Gabe an idiot.

 

Apparently Andy Sedaris was a genius conman for never inviting Pauline Kael to his premiers?

[Loss]

I agree. Does putting one's best foot forward really make him a conman?

[Jingus]

Well, it's all manipulation. Just different degrees of it.

 

Apparently Andy Sedaris was a genius conman for never inviting Pauline Kael to his premiers?

If Andy had gotten a writeup in the Voice, then he woulda got an Oscar for Enemy Gold guaranteed.

[tomk]

Yeah so I was trying to find a website that did all the goofy marketing talking points on future of entertainment distribution etc. and best I can come up with thus far is a music one.

 

http://newmusicstrategies.com/2007/03/16/t...t-music-online/

 

3. Opinion Leaders Rule: We know the importance of radio and press. There are now new opinion leaders who will tell your story with credibility. You need to find out who they are — or better yet, become one of them.

PWG is based out of socal (Meltzer's home base) and has put in nowhere near the work that Gabe has put in to get himself close to him.

 

I don't think Gabe is a strategic marketing genius and think he's probably just lucked into the right thing at the right time.

 

That said there are alot of indy promotions which are funded by DVD sales ( promotions set up knowing that they draw more income from DVD/video sales than they do from attendance)

 

Gabe comes accross a lot savvyer than those other promotions.

[Jingus]

Gabe is a strategic marketing genius and think he's probably just lucked into the right thing at the right time.

What, being the #2 man when Feinstein got busted?

 

In all seriousness, I think lots of ROH's success comes from the fact that they run in the most crowded part of the country. When you're in a city the size of New York, you're doing something wrong if you've got a decent show and AREN'T drawing a thousand people. That, and the fact that with RFVideo's backing they basically sprang from Jove's forehead as the best-financed company that benefitted from the most free advertising just by being run by the biggest tape dealer in the land.

[tomk]

When you're in a city the size of New York, you're doing something wrong if you've got a decent show and AREN'T drawing a thousand people.

I think one can make a claim that being a territory based in marketing/media capital of New York helped WWF take their "product"national in the 80s.

 

But being in a major media market doesn't guarantee attendance success.

 

The argument that people make when trying to diminish the value of attendance numbers in a place like Memphis or North Carolina is that the folks in TN and NC didn't have alot of things competing for their entertainment (mostly the argument here is lack of major sports teams).

 

NY has multiple sports teams, and an active nightlife scene. Being able to draw in a city where there are lots of entertainment choices isn't a given.

 

best-financed company

The free advertising that came from knowing the tape distribution network is true.

 

But I don't buy that they were the best financed company. Someone want to ask Barber how much financial backing was behind XPW?

 

All of these feds were paid for by porn.

 

3PW was financed by Jasmine St Claire.

 

PWG was financed by guys who did film work in the pron industry.

 

XPW probably had the best money and resources financed by porn kingpin.

 

How much did the bondage stuff on RF's website subsidize the wrestling tapes?

 

That they needed a ticket scalper to come in and help suggests that they weren't on the strongest financial footing.

[kjh]

What, being the #2 man when Feinstein got busted?

Actually if you want to point to Gabe being a conman, probably the best thing to point to is how he dealt with this situation, particularly how it took several months longer to oust Feinstein from the company than when it was announced he was gone.

[Bix]

When you're in a city the size of New York, you're doing something wrong if you've got a decent show and AREN'T drawing a thousand people.

I think one can make a claim that being a territory based in marketing/media capital of New York helped WWF take their "product"national in the 80s.

 

But being in a major media market doesn't guarantee attendance success.

 

The argument that people make when trying to diminish the value of attendance numbers in a place like Memphis or North Carolina is that the folks in TN and NC didn't have alot of things competing for their entertainment (mostly the argument here is lack of major sports teams).

 

NY has multiple sports teams, and an active nightlife scene. Being able to draw in a city where there are lots of entertainment choices isn't a given.

 

best-financed company

The free advertising that came from knowing the tape distribution network is true.

 

But I don't buy that they were the best financed company. Someone want to ask Barber how much financial backing was behind XPW?

 

All of these feds were paid for by porn.

 

3PW was financed by Jasmine St Claire.

 

PWG was financed by guys who did film work in the pron industry.

 

XPW probably had the best money and resources financed by porn kingpin.

 

How much did the bondage stuff on RF's website subsidize the wrestling tapes?

 

That they needed a ticket scalper to come in and help suggests that they weren't on the strongest financial footing.

 

You're forgetting RF's "Eve Extreme Video," which, by looking at the Wayback Machine, was around 2 years before ROH and was closed a few months after ROH started.

 

So I guess you can say porn money got ROH started but it floundered when they closed the porn store. Or something. Though I believe RF was still selling porn through the wrestling site.

[tomk]

I don't remember what that was.

 

Was that the Kristi Mist naked shoot?

The thing where RF tried to channel Studs Terkel and do shoots with strippers?

[Bix]

It was just an online porn store, predated those other things.

[MikeCampbell]

Would ROH Charging $100 a pop for tickets to the NYC show with Misawa be considered a con, considering that at this stage in his career he's so broken down that he's little more than a Japanese Scott Steiner.

[Bix]

Yikes, I got 3rd row for Kobashi for $25.

[Al]

Would ROH Charging $100 a pop for tickets to the NYC show with Misawa be considered a con, considering that at this stage in his career he's so broken down that he's little more than a Japanese Scott Steiner.

No, because the prices are set by the market. If people will pay it, it's just RoH selling at a fair price. If not, RoH loses sales.

[Indikator]

I was standing 1 feet away from him for 20€

He almost stepped on me while tagging. Good times... especially considering the officials were frightened by the thought Misawa would cancel the show after getting into the venue as it was quite shabby

 

I know a lot of puro nerds who will only come for the very big names and neglect the midcarders so I would also say that 100$ isn't out of question for those folks.

[MikeCampbell]

Maybe I'm just too cynical, but ROH, the company that's supposed to be all about the great wrestling and classic matches, charging people that much to see someone who's frankly less than a shell of his former self at this point in his career seems like a con.

[Indikator]

But you shouldn't forget how much Misawa is going to cost. I heard how much he cost in 2005, I think it might have hit the 5 digits range IIRC.

 

Edit: Or maybe it was hypothetically like "if there wasn't a UK Supershow he would cost that much". You need to know that the UK Supershows were the primary reason for his trip and everything else was a B-Show. But because of it Misawa (and later on Kobashi) were a lot cheaper. Maybe that 5 digit figure was for Kobashi match without such a UK Supershows. I can't really remember. I really suck when it comes to paydays. I am just not too interested in them. Which is mostly a good thing. The only other figure that might be true, here for Misawa is 4k. But that doesn't cover plaintickets / hotels etc. which were splitted between the European promoters. His crew is also not cheap, and there can be up to 10 people. They even had office guys with them, I had a nice chat with one of them. So those costs also make the prices so high.

[Marty]

Bret "Hit them up for as much money as possible, man" Hart: Despite never being more than a modest draw at best, and never earning more than high 6 figures a year. Bret Hart works the WWF and WCW into a huge multi million dollar bidding war for his services, and ends up taking Vince for a million and Bischoff for 9 million.

I wouldn't say that's completely accurate. I mean, yes, that's what happened, but Bret would have initially gone with the higher WCW offer if he was only out to get more money. Vince told him he was going to intentionally breach his contract and to go to WCW, which is the reason he got that deal back.

According to Bret's book, he did con Bischoff for more money. Well after Vince told Bret about breaching his contract, WCW offered Bret $2 million, well more than anything he would've got with the WWF. I don't remember the exact quote, but he told Bischoff something along the lines of, "If you can't get me $3 million a year, don't bother talking to me." He managed to get another million a year out of it even though he knew he wasn't staying with the WWF.

 

So the original post is half-accurate.

[Guest onlxn]

PWG was financed by guys who did film work in the porn industry.

Excalibur and Disco were both low-level distribution employees for a porn company (not sure if it was Black's or not)... they didn't make any significant amount of money off of it. By all accounts, PWG started with no more than twenty grand -- far, far less than ROH.

 

PWG could certainly do a better job of acquainting Meltzer with their stuff (though San Jose is 350 miles from LA, so they're not really in his "home base"), but they're a more impressive success story, financially, than ROH. The company's never had a money mark, and they've consistently grown for the last five years.

 

So-Cal hasn't seen many great cons of late, but this is one of my favorite failed cons ever:

 

http://www.socaluncensored.com/board/showthread.php3?t=2305

 

XPW announces Rev Pro, IWA-MS, HWA and WZW as "developmental territories" (paying each fed for the honor), despite the fact that *all four* are routinely outdrawing XPW. XPW, in fact, never ran another show after this announcement, due to Black being called up on obscenity charges. That dude may have been the most inept promoter in wrestling history... he actually got outpromoted by Ian Rotten.

 

Speaking of which, I think Ian's annual "this may be it for us" cash drives deserve mention here.

[Dan]

This isn't really a con but a lot of these aren't so I'll add it anyway.

 

Boxing = pro wres: Gabe and Paul Heyman conned Dave into thinking that Floyd Mayweather is the best heel in the business.

[Loss]

Okay, not sure how to label this because I'm not even sure it's what happened. But I do suspect it?

 

I do think Shawn Michaels had a bad back in 1998. But I think he exaggerated it because he didn't want to walk behind Austin, all while staying under contract and getting paid main event money to do nothing for four years. Suddenly, he finds God right around the same time Hulk Hogan bombs and Steve Austin and The Rock leave. "Miraculously" his back is healed and he can suddenly come back and take huge bumps like he never left.

 

It still doesn't make sense.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Well you have to take into account some other factors, some of which might support your argument and others which might not:

 

- Sure Shawn got "main event money", but nothing compared to what he could have made main-eventing against Austin. You don't think he would have come back in '99 or 2000 when business was super-hot to get a big pay-off?

- He did do one match in 2000, against Paul Diamond for the indy promotion he was running at the time.

- If I remember correctly, he was supposed to have his return match at Backlash '01 (his interference in the Taker-HHH match at WM would have led to this), but his pilled-up backstage behavior at Raw the week before Mania ruined that)

- He still only worked a very limited schedule for the first year or so that he was back.

 

Not saying that you are right or wrong, just a few things to consider.

[Al]

- Sure Shawn got "main event money", but nothing compared to what he could have made main-eventing against Austin. You don't think he would have come back in '99 or 2000 when business was super-hot to get a big pay-off?

This is the big one. WWE runs HUGE stadium shows for Wrestlemanias 17 and 18, and he doesn't come in for those?

[Loss]

So what changed for him where he's suddenly fine? That's the part I don't understand. His first match back he was going through tables.

[Jingus]

- He did do one match in 2000, against Paul Diamond for the indy promotion he was running at the time.

I've got that one on tape. Just looking at it, it does seem like Shawn was very ginger about his back. The biggest thing he did was an elbow drop coming down about three feet off a small ladder, the rest of it was either him whipping Diamond's ass, or taking punishment in a non-bumping manner like getting handcuffed to the ropes and then kendo-sticked about the head. He sure as hell wasn't taking the kind of risks he did in his Summerslam return match. I'd guess it was after that when he realized that he could come back and work if he really wanted to, but he waited until the most opportune moment. So after his TWA fed died, the training school dried up, half the WWE main eventers left the company for various reasons, his best friend/protege HHH is firmly in charge of the Raw brand, and his heat for showing up stoned had finally faded away, then he shocks the world by revealing that the rumors of his crippled-ness were somewhat exaggerated. Half carny con, half good timing.

[sek69]

I've always had the theory that Shawn seemed burnt out (both figuratively and literally) and the injury gave him the opportunity to go out without the questions that went with the other times he'd conveniently disappear. Even the documentary on the new HBK DVD pretty much says that he was drugged out nearly 24/7 at that point. I think after the injury he probably just didn't have the fire to come back and would probably have ended up another OD casualty without his religious experiences.

 

I also believe 100% he saw the writing on the wall and knew the company was going to make Austin the top dog, and there's no way I can see 1998 Shawn being #2 to anyone. Hell, that might have even added to his drug habit having to realize the company was moving on.