#SpeakingOut: Industry-wide sexual misconduct (assault/harrassment/grooming/etc) accusations and their repercussions

[El-P]

27 minutes ago, ButchReedMark said:

Wrestling is toxic and I'm pretty sure I don't like it anymore. I don't think I've even watched any properly since the New Year. 

Honestly it's not a pro-wrestling thing. Same scandal happened in figure-skating in France a few months ago. And other sports too. And basically where we don't hear about it is because people are still scared to talk. And that's only the tip of the iceberg because it's the entertainment industry (yeah, I put sport in entertainment) but it's the same thing everywhere. Abuse and domination. I know, this world sucks.

[Matt D]

15 minutes ago, El-P said:

Honestly it's not a pro-wrestling thing. Same scandal happened in figure-skating in France a few months ago. And other sports too. And basically where we don't hear about it is because people are still scared to talk. And that's only the tip of the iceberg because it's the entertainment industry (yeah, I put sport in entertainment) but it's the same thing everywhere. Abuse and domination. I know, this world sucks.

It’s politics and video games and  managers at your local Walmart too. What’s important is that people are speaking out and the efforts to clean things up. It’s better to stay engaged and promote reform than to try to find something to love that is somehow pristine. You would think the nature of lies and kayfabe and men in power might make wrestling worse but I’m not sure that would shake out.

[C.S.]

 

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, Matt D said:

It’s better to stay engaged and promote reform than to try to find something to love that is somehow pristine. You would think the nature of lies and kayfabe and men in power might make wrestling worse but I’m not sure that would shake out.

Yeah, Meltz made that point about how that part of the culture, the whole "secret society", certainly helped to make things even worse. But yeah, it's all over the map. There's no "pristine". You, we, can just try to help make things get better. Or less worse.

[El-P]

3 minutes ago, C.S. said:

 

Say what you will, that is an apology that reads like one.

[Coffey]

Yeah, that's a decent apology. I hope he privately contacts Sasha to apologize to her personally too. 

[El-P]

I've gotta say this though, the Twitter crowd is insufferable.

[Coffey]

Just now, El-P said:

I've gotta say this though, the Twitter crowd is insufferable.

This is because the Twitter crowd doesn't actually care about consequences. They'll talk about "cancelling" people every single day. And people do lose their jobs & careers over some of the stuff they say or do. Sometimes justly. But to Twitter people, they just start a new crusade. 

Karen says "Cancel Bob! Bob sucks"

Then Bob loses his job.

Now Karen says "Cancel Jeff! Jeff sucks."

There's no sense of justice or even a moment of celebration or anything. It's just onto the next one.

Because the actual consequences don't effect her, personally or individually. Sometimes these people casting stones can't even equate these accounts to actual living, breathing people that have lives & real things they can lose. It's just a name on a screen to them. 

Sammy said something stupid & apologized. Should he be fired over it? Most likely no. Maybe some sort of sensitivity training if AEW really wanted to make a statement. His comment was vile, agreed, but it's not in the same fucking stratosphere as 30 year old men sleeping with 15 year old girls that they groomed & used their position of power to take advantage of... And it's only been like three or four days & I feel people are already straying off topic & turning this #SpeakingOut into just rock throwing for anyone they don't like. 

[KawadaSmile]

what the fuck

[C.S.]

It sounds like Jazzy went through some bad shit, but responding to Simone Johnson (Rock's daughter) - who presumably isn't at the UK PC - seems kind of misdirected.

Edit: I wrote that under the assumption that there's a separate PC in the UK, but come to think of it, I've never heard of that being the case. Could be she mean the UK workers at the U.S. PC?

 

 

[sek69]

Sammy apologized without still trying to defend what he said, reached out to Sasha to mend fences. 
 

This was the best possible outcome and proves you can own up to past shitty comments and learn from your mistakes. 
 

[World's Worst Man]

22 minutes ago, El-P said:

I've gotta say this though, the Twitter crowd is insufferable.

Twitter (and Reddit) demonstrate how politically radicalized people can become in a circlejerk echo-chamber, and also that it's not restricted to just one side of the political spectrum. Nuance is a dirty word, if you don't 100% tow the line you're a fascist, etc etc. It's nothing new if one looks at history but it sucks that it still continues to be a problem.

[MoS]

I usually roll my eyes at stupid terms like 'cancel culture' cuz cancel culture has always been a thing- people just tried to cancel other stuff. However, someone recently tweeted something that I thought made a ton of sense. "There is something inherently sustainable about a culture that constantly demanda atonement but scorns the idea of forgiveness." 

Of course, this does not apply to many of the cases here, who are complete shitbags whose actions do not warrant forgiveness. On the other hand, as disgusting as Sammy's joke was, it is not something I think he should lose his job for, and it seems as if he and Sasha talked about it and put this behind them. And I will say this: for all we hear about how no one should apologise publicly, because it gives ammo to their critics, I have noticed that in general, an actual sincere apology always works better to put an incident/issue/hurt feelings to rest, than a bunch of vacuous non-apology apologies. 

[MoS]

Fair enough.

 

[C.S.]

45 minutes ago, MoS said:

Fair enough.

I disagree. I think it's fake "woke" bullshit.

1. It happened before AEW was even a thing.

2. Sammy apologized both publicly and privately to Sasha.

3. Sasha accepted the apology, or at least acknowledged it, and they've seemingly put the issue behind them.

4. And most importantly of all, abusive scumbag Jimmy Havoc got "wished all the best" and was sent to rehab. No suspension. Whether it's technically a suspension and he isn't getting paid, we don't know, because AEW didn't tell us.

Just to be clear, I think Sammy was 100% wrong in what he said and I fully support the idea of him getting sensitivity training or whatever (assuming that stuff actually works and isn't just another scam), but AEW sacrificing him at the false altar of "wokeness" is incredibly disingenuous and transparent. I don't believe for even a single solitary second that this is a sincere move by Tony Khan and AEW. It isn't. Not after Jimmy Havoc. It's WWE suspending Harry Smith for a Wellness Policy violation to make it look like they were enforcing the rules.

Edit: Going to add that I'd have zero problem with Sammy's suspension - punishment is deserved after what he said - if Havoc had gotten a worse punishment instead of a lesser one + being wished "all the best." And that's not even getting into the other cases AEW is blatantly ignoring. That's why I question the sincerity of this. 

Of course, all of this is still miles better than WWE shitcanning Gallagher (100% deserved) while turning a blind eye to everyone else (so far).

[delacroix]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

"She's super hot" can definitely be objectifying as it can also absolutely not be, everything depends of so many elements : the intent put behind the proposition, the social context, the tone of the voice, whom it is said to, the relationship between whom is producing the sentence and who it is destined to, is the person referred to is present of not when it's been said, what is the relationship between the person who says it and the person referred to etc etc... There's no essentialisation of the language for ideologic purposes (even if the motives come from a good place).

I mostly lurk on the forum, but this conversation is important enough that I’d like to make a quick contribution.

It sounds like you are coming at this from a different perspective, but I would disagree with this, at the very least as it refers to public speech. If I’m understanding you correctly, this suggests that the individual has absolute control over the meaning, which is never true. In a culture that values women primarily (if not solely) for how their bodies are useful to men, saying ‘She’s super hot’ cannot possibly be an innocuous declaration— especially it’s the first thing that you think to say.

Which, of course, it always is, for every one of us. I’m a great fan of Asuka, and I have to constantly recognize the fact that, regardless of how much I admire her talents as an athlete and a performer, I also, instinctively, notice that I think she’s fucking hot as hell, and I notice it before anything else. I don’t want to judge her in those terms, because she deserves better and I wouldn’t like to think of myself as someone who would objectify her and discount her talent like that, but it just happens, because I have internalized these attitudes. The best I can do is to recognize it, be honest about it, and address it. 

We can say “that’s not the same thing as rape” (which it obviously isn’t the same) and even “that’s not the same thing as saying ‘I wanna rape her’” (not so convinced on that one), but they’re absolutely related. All three are defining women by their sexuality and how it is useful to men. As was noted, each one one points the way, inevitably, to the next. ‘Intent’ is irrelevant, because the individual doesn’t have power to define these things for others (or, I would argue, even for themselves), regardless of how ‘pure’ the motives are. 

I can appreciate why this argument isn’t palatable, as it basically means that anything short of changing the entire foundation of civilization is inadequate, because it draws an arbitrary line and says some things are okay and others aren’t, based on nothing more than what we’re personally comfortable with in the moment. I am suggesting we throw the baby out with the bath water, essentially. We won’t, obviously, but I honestly don’t see anything else as anything more than just re-drawing our collective arbitrary lines that will, eventually, show themselves to be just as inadequate and damaging. 

 

Edited June 22, 2020 by delacroix
Fixing typo for clarity

[sek69]

If AEW doesn't do anything, they get accused of letting someone skate for making disgusting comments right on the heels of them handling the Havoc situation less than ideally. I don't think Sammy's going to be gone for months, this is pretty much the equivalent of putting him in a time out and letting him think about what he has done.

You can dismiss it as "woke", and undoubtedly there is some PR to all this, but dude is facing repercussions for his words and at the end of the day that's what anyone should want to happen. He doesn't deserve to be fired/shunned/thrown to the wolves since what he did wasn't on the level of other more disgusting people did. I think what AEW is doing is appropriate. He seems to have learned his lesson and and reached out to the person he directed the comments to. Just like I still got grounded by my parents when I did something wrong even if I understood what I did was in fact wrong, Sammy can survive being benched for a couple weeks as part of this.

[C.S.]

3 minutes ago, sek69 said:

If AEW doesn't do anything, they get accused of letting someone skate for making disgusting comments right on the heels of them handling the Havoc situation less than ideally. I don't think Sammy's going to be gone for months, this is pretty much the equivalent of putting him in a time out and letting him think about what he has done.

You can dismiss it as "woke", and undoubtedly there is some PR to all this, but dude is facing repercussions for his words and at the end of the day that's what anyone should want to happen. He doesn't deserve to be fired/shunned/thrown to the wolves since what he did wasn't on the level of other more disgusting people did. I think what AEW is doing is appropriate. He seems to have learned his lesson and and reached out to the person he directed the comments to. Just like I still got grounded by my parents when I did something wrong even if I understood what I did was in fact wrong, Sammy can survive being benched for a couple weeks as part of this.

I edited my comment above to make my stance clearer. Since I did that literally seconds before your response, I'll post it again here.

• Edit: Going to add that I'd have zero problem with Sammy's suspension - punishment is deserved after what he said - if Havoc had gotten a worse punishment instead of a lesser one + being wished "all the best." And that's not even getting into the other cases AEW is blatantly ignoring. That's why I question the sincerity of this.  Of course, all of this is still miles better than WWE shitcanning Gallagher (100% deserved) while turning a blind eye to everyone else (so far).

I have no problem with Sammy being punished somehow - he should be - I just question the sincerity of it. 

[El-P]

33 minutes ago, delacroix said:

It sounds like you are coming at this from a different perspective, but I would disagree with this, at the very least as it refers to public speech. If I’m understanding you correctly, this suggests that the individual has absolute control over the meaning, which is never true.

Well, you have not understood what I said. I said that the meaning of a proposition can't be deciphered in a vacuum. Language doesn't work in a vacuum. Language works in a context with a thousands elements to it which plays a role in human interactions. Using an ideologic grid to say that proposition X or Y absolutely refers to idea X or Y doesn't work. Now, you can say something in a certain context, with a certain intent and it can still be misunderstood by the person that proposition was intended toward (not even mentioning for instance someone for whom the proposition is *not* intended to but still hears it). Not that it is the fault of anyone. There's so many super complex issues at hands here, but I don't think this is the place for interactionist linguistics discussions (especially since I wouldn't be at ease developping on that topic in a language that isn't my own, as my English is good enough but not *that* good). What I'm saying is that you can't say that the proposition "She's super hot" is absolutely objectifying.

33 minutes ago, delacroix said:

In a culture that values women primarily (if not solely) for how their bodies are useful to men, saying ‘She’s super hot’ cannot possibly be an innocuous declaration

Of course it can. As purely aesthetic judgement. Now, if you are saying that there can't be purely aesthetic judgement on how people look, well, I dunno what to tell you. Everybody does it all the time, men and women alike. And there's nothing wrong with that.

33 minutes ago, delacroix said:

We can say “that’s not the same thing as rape” (which it obviously isn’t the same) and even “that’s not the same thing as saying ‘I wanna rape her’” (not so convinced on that one), but they’re absolutely related.

No. Not at all. I'm sorry but this just isn't valid in any way shape or form.

Now, "She's super hot" can absolutely be an inappropriate, objectifying or even worse proposition. But everything can be an horrifying proposition. Any word of any kind can be used to produce a godawful discourse. But there's no word or proposition in a vacuum that is absolutely anything. 

[sek69]

8 minutes ago, C.S. said:

I edited my comment above to make my stance clearer. Since I did that literally seconds before your response, I'll post it again here.

• Edit: Going to add that I'd have zero problem with Sammy's suspension - punishment is deserved after what he said - if Havoc had gotten a worse punishment instead of a lesser one + being wished "all the best." And that's not even getting into the other cases AEW is blatantly ignoring. That's why I question the sincerity of this.  Of course, all of this is still miles better than WWE shitcanning Gallagher (100% deserved) while turning a blind eye to everyone else (so far).

I have no problem with Sammy being punished somehow - he should be - I just question the sincerity of it. 

 

To be fair we should probably stop judging every company by assuming they will handle it like WWE does. So far AEW has handled Sammy (a main event or at least upper level guy) the same as Havoc (midcard tag team guy) which is already 100% different than WWE would do. I would suspect Sammy will be back and Havoc won't, but that's more based on the severity of their actions rather than company bias.

What other cases is AEW ignoring? The only one I saw was someone's story that people connected the dots to assume it was Jake Hager but I haven't seen it was confirmed to be him. I also fully admit I may have missed another case since I was mostly offline yesterday. 

[Coffey]

54 minutes ago, C.S. said:

Jimmy Havoc got "wished all the best" and was sent to rehab.

I was under the impression that Jimmy Havoc checked HIMSELF into rehab because in Florida you can't be fired while in rehab. Can anyone confirm that?

I assume as soon as he's out, he gets fired.

[sek69]

2 minutes ago, Coffey said:

I was under the impression that Jimmy Havoc checked HIMSELF into rehab because in Florida you can't be fired while in rehab. Can anyone confirm that?

I assume as soon as he's out, he gets fired.

 

That was my impression as well.

 

He does apparently have actual substance issues, so there's a chance that perhaps having everything exposed was his rock bottom moment that he needed to realize he should get help. I'm probably being way too optimistic, but at this point its all we can hope for.

[El-P]

2 hours ago, Coffey said:

This is because the Twitter crowd doesn't actually care about consequences. They'll talk about "cancelling" people every single day. And people do lose their jobs & careers over some of the stuff they say or do. Sometimes justly. But to Twitter people, they just start a new crusade. 

Totally agree.

1 hour ago, World's Worst Man said:

Twitter (and Reddit) demonstrate how politically radicalized people can become in a circlejerk echo-chamber, and also that it's not restricted to just one side of the political spectrum. Nuance is a dirty word, if you don't 100% tow the line you're a fascist, etc etc. It's nothing new if one looks at history but it sucks that it still continues to be a problem.

Indeed.

7 minutes ago, Coffey said:

I was under the impression that Jimmy Havoc checked HIMSELF into rehab because in Florida you can't be fired while in rehab. Can anyone confirm that?

I assume as soon as he's out, he gets fired.

No idea about the self-checked, but people are way overreacting to the "Wished all the best". First, and since we're deeply into linguistics here (fuck my science language research mastered ass), this is a very formal politeness kind of statement. We all have joked enough about WWE's infamous "wish you the best" stuff. It doesn't convey any kind of warm or friendly feeling at all. Plus, the guy is going in rehab. Better this than nothing (unless actual charges are filed). So, they are addressing a guy with mental issues. Ok, what are they supposed to say ? "Go fuck yourself on rehab, you dick !" . So, wishing him to get better while he's gone anyway for the time being and not so sure he'll be brought back when he's out (then there's the whole "what does rehab do on short term, really, issue that has been talked about earlier on). I mean, nothing to get mad about, really.

[C.S.]

37 minutes ago, sek69 said:

To be fair we should probably stop judging every company by assuming they will handle it like WWE does. So far AEW has handled Sammy (a main event or at least upper level guy) the same as Havoc (midcard tag team guy) which is already 100% different than WWE would do. I would suspect Sammy will be back and Havoc won't, but that's more based on the severity of their actions rather than company bias.

What other cases is AEW ignoring? The only one I saw was someone's story that people connected the dots to assume it was Jake Hager but I haven't seen it was confirmed to be him. I also fully admit I may have missed another case since I was mostly offline yesterday. 

Except, I completely disagree that AEW handled Sammy and Havoc the same. 

Sammy got far worse IMO. However, it turns out there may be reasons for that, according to Coffey's post (below). 

Not sure why you think I'm assuming every company will handle this like WWE, as I never said anything of the sort. I even praised AEW's (wildly imperfect) response as miles better than WWE.

Hager and Justin Roberts are the other names, but I'll be honest that I have no idea what Hager did while Roberts was accused of asking for nudes from a fan who was 17. (If there's more than that, I'm sure someone will post. I've completely lost track at this point, which is a really, really sad indictment of just how bad things are in the wrestling industry.)

33 minutes ago, Coffey said:

I was under the impression that Jimmy Havoc checked HIMSELF into rehab because in Florida you can't be fired while in rehab. Can anyone confirm that?

I assume as soon as he's out, he gets fired.

I didn't know this was Florida law. Interesting wrinkle on why Havoc and Sammy were handled so differently.  

I hate to come across as cynical, but this really sounds like more manipulative BS by Havoc, which seems to be his abuse pattern of choice. I could be wrong and hope I am.

[sek69]

Yeah, I didn't even think to consider Havoc could still be a manipulator with all this.

Also it's not so much a Florida law as more as (I believe) an ADA thing that was intended to keep employers from punishing workers trying to seek help, so if it is Havoc manipulating things to his advantage that makes it even more scummy.