2020 Wrestling Observer Hall of Fame

[kas]

CIMA's best match is against Bryan in PWG imo

[WrestlingPower]

Re: Kyoko, my guess is she's considered above the others because she was in AJW whereas the others were in lower level/indy promotions.

[shakla]

Moolah has never been considered in the Historical category and should be eventually, regardless of her controversies in recent years.  She stayed on the Modern ballot the max time and there were many years she tallied a lot of votes.

Good for Hall and Nash being added again.  The HoF process and voting pool compared to '98 and now is night and day.  Doubt they'll get the votes but certainly worth another look now that their careers are done rather than near the peak in '98.

[ethantyler]

12 hours ago, shakla said:

Moolah has never been considered in the Historical category and should be eventually, regardless of her controversies in recent years.  She stayed on the Modern ballot the max time and there were many years she tallied a lot of votes.

Moolah dragged womens wrestling in North America back decades and it was only recently (2014-15ish) that the damage was repaired. She, along with the rest of the division during her era, was a mid-card attraction like the midgets. Being the leading star of a mid-card act isn't HOF worthy. 

The main categories of induction are drawing power (with a secondary consideration for longevity on top), in-ring ability, and positive historical significance. Moolah never drew, doesn't have any longevity on top, was average at best in-ring, and has more negatives than positives when it comes to historical significance. She doesn't tick a single box so no, IMO she shouldn't be back on the ballot. Though I'll comfort myself with the knowledge that if she does return, she'll never be inducted anyway. 

Mildred Burke is in because she was a draw, main evented, and really ushered in the era of womens wrestling. June Byers has a debatable case because she also drew and main evented to a lessor extent, was equal to Burke in-ring, and has positive historical significance although, again, to a lessor extent than Burke. Moolah isn't even remotely close to their level. I may vote for Byers, I'd never vote for Moolah.

[Al]

I think Moolah's greatest contribution may actually be as a trainer. But I wouldn't be in a hurry to relitigate her case. 

[WrestlingPower]

You may not be wrong but wasn't her whole career as a trainer basically based on being a carny where she could train her own opponents/touring troupe, and use them to siphon money off their booking fees.  If either of those 2 factors weren't in play she would have never trained people.  Not saying this is exclusive to her in her era but more strong factors against her.

[MoS]

How many people are in the WON HoF for being great trainers? Probably Stu Hart and Ultimo Dragon? Who else?

[sek69]

15 minutes ago, MoS said:

How many people are in the WON HoF for being great trainers? Probably Stu Hart and Ultimo Dragon? Who else?

Diablo Velasco as well. He trained several generations of Lucha stars from the 40s to the 90s.

[Robert S]

13 hours ago, MoS said:

How many people are in the WON HoF for being great trainers? Probably Stu Hart and Ultimo Dragon? Who else?

For Stu Hart I guess is in as a combination of his trainer career as well as being a long-time promoter and the top start of a smaller territory. I doubt that Dragon is in for his training. How much training did he even do? Going by cagematch, he his listed as having trained 68 wrestlers. But looking at the individual guys, the first group was trained or co-trained by Dos Caras and the later groups by Skayde. Some guys also had some pre-training from Animal Hamaguchi.

On Wikipedia, the following people are listed as gotten inducted due to (at least some part) their trainer career: Stu Hart, Killer Kowalski, Diablo Velasco and Martin (Farmer) Burns. I don't really get Kowalski, he might have trained a lot of people, but not many ended up being stars, so I guess for him training was only a minor part for his Hall of Fame case.

[Al]

I think on Wikipedia some inductees are listed for what they did. Kowalski was inducted with the original class of 1996 though and at that point his most famous trainees weren't even on the radar.

[ethantyler]

I'd strongly recommend checking out Kowalski's record in the 1950s. He wasn't inducted because of his work as a trainer. He was inducted because he's one of the greatest of all time. In terms of drawing power, in-ring work, and historical significance. He literally ticks all of the boxes. A slam dunk. 

Going back to Moolah, she didn't train a single HOFer or anyone who we'd consider to be a HOF level worker. So that angle really isn't going to help her much. 

[Al]

I don't think anyone doubts Kowalski's credentials. My point is that Kowalski's HOF case was 99+% as a wrestler. 

[C.S.]

9 hours ago, ethantyler said:

Going back to Moolah, she didn't train a single HOFer or anyone who we'd consider to be a HOF level worker. So that angle really isn't going to help her much. 

Ironically, that's Moolah's own fault, since she always lobbied to be the star attraction.

[ethantyler]

7 hours ago, C.S. said:

Ironically, that's Moolah's own fault, since she always lobbied to be the star attraction.

Yup. She trained them to work the same style as her too, which wasn't very good to begin with. 

Moolah is one of those that people assume should be a HOFer based on the WWE stuff, name recognition, etc. But then you dig into the details, as we've all done in this thread, and realize that she actually has no business even being considered, much less inducted. 

[Robert S]

Meltzer talked about this in the past as well. When he came up with the additional list (I forgot who helped him on it, probably someone like Steve Yohe, I would assume - in the initial listing in the Observer (August, 19th, 1996) he does not list anyone in particular), at first he went "Moolah should be in, no doubt about it", but then after thinking about it more deeply, it turned out to be not so clear and that's why he put her on the ballot instead.

[MoS]

25 minutes ago, Robert S said:

Meltzer talked about this in the past as well. When he came up with the additional list (I forgot who helped him on it, probably someone like Steve Yohe, I would assume - in the initial listing in the Observer (August, 19th, 1996) he does not list anyone in particular), at first he went "Moolah should be in, no doubt about it", but then after thinking about it more deeply, it turned out to be not so clear and that's why he put her on the ballot instead.

I think it was jdw

[GSR]

Yeah, pretty sure John talked about the formation of the Observer Hall of Fame in the past when he used to post here.

[Al]

My big question, not for Moolah but for women in general. There's one American woman in the Observer Hall right now. Given the increased importance of women in American wrestling, does that ratio need to change? Then apart from Moolah, who is the best candidate? 

[WrestlingPower]

I think the story is Meltzer and JDW came up with the HOF list as something to do on a flight to Japan.

Just curious, which male wrestlers did Moolah train?  I think I’ve heard Del Wilkes for sure, and possibly Chris Kanyon and/or Dennis Knight/Mideon.

[ethantyler]

57 minutes ago, Al said:

My big question, not for Moolah but for women in general. There's one American woman in the Observer Hall right now. Given the increased importance of women in American wrestling, does that ratio need to change? Then apart from Moolah, who is the best candidate? 

The ratio will change if the increased importance of women in American wrestling leads to more women satisfying the induction criteria. It will not change just for the sake of it because the WOHOF is, for the most part, a meritocracy. Unlike the WWE version where you get token inductions to satisfy equality arguments. My go-to example here is Akira Hokuto. She was inducted because she was fucking awesome. Not because she was fucking awesome for a woman. 

The best candidate, for me, is June Byers. Becky Lynch may eclipse her depending on how the rest of her career (if she comes back) goes. 

[MoS]

I think Becky goes in when she is eligible for historical influence - she became the people's choice to be the first woman to main event WM, and then had a long reign where she was consistently treated as the top star of the promotion, with multiple main events. The rest of the horsewomen I am not sure, but Sasha is young and has plenty of time to add to her case.

[sek69]

21 minutes ago, MoS said:

I think Becky goes in when she is eligible for historical influence - she became the people's choice to be the first woman to main event WM, and then had a long reign where she was consistently treated as the top star of the promotion, with multiple main events. The rest of the horsewomen I am not sure, but Sasha is young and has plenty of time to add to her case.

I don't disagree, but I see people using WM as a negative since it went on last on a marathon show which muted the crowd, and the finish was botched which kind of ruined it.

Also if she doesn't come back I see her getting stuck with the "wasn't around on top long enough" tag. 

[MoS]

2 minutes ago, sek69 said:

I don't disagree, but I see people using WM as a negative since it went on last on a marathon show which muted the crowd, and the finish was botched which kind of ruined it.

Also if she doesn't come back I see her getting stuck with the "wasn't around on top long enough" tag. 

I don't think WWE being terrible at structuring their shows takes away from the historical moment of the main event itself. I'd argue that her being booked in the main event itself is the achievement here. Even 5 years ago, that thought would have been impossible. 

[Rocco]

The Miz main evented a WM.  Nothing was impossible after that.  

[sek69]

10 minutes ago, Rocco said:

The Miz main evented a WM.  Nothing was impossible after that.  

The Miz was a potted plant in the background to the real stars (Rock and Cena). That's why it's been used as a way to get him heel heat over the years. Becky and Ronda were pushed as the main event and Charlotte ended up getting wedged in because reasons, but it was the marquee event.