WWE TV 12/7-12/13 Congrats to Becky and Seth

[El-P]

None

No

No

No

[Matt D]

5 minutes ago, El-P said:

None

No

No

No

Because nothing about Randy Orton in and of himself is interesting, I think all of this is more interesting as a way to distill some universal metrics from Dave.

[El-P]

I know. But if you give me an opportunity to shit on Randy "Black Hole" Orton, I will take it.

[NintendoLogic]

Brother Matt left himself wide open with that Ray Stevens aside, but I'll pass up the low-hanging fruit to discuss Orton's drawing power. VOW analyzed his record at the end of 2013:

http://web.archive.org/web/20131225144451/https://www.voicesofwrestling.com/2013/12/20/is-randy-orton-a-draw/

The upshot is this: from 2004 to 2008, Orton-headlined PPVs performed above the company average, sometimes significantly so. From 2009 on, they've performed below the company average. And even in the good years, there are some caveats. For example, Survivor Series 2004, headlined by Team Orton vs. Team HHH, did well by 2004 standards but poorly by Survivor Series standards. And he faced Undertaker in a Hell in a Cell match at Armageddon 2005, so you can't really credit him for the buyrate there. At best, he's the guy who works with the guy who draws the money.

[KawadaSmile]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

It's also interesting when he goes about what makes for greatness other than that.

• What are the list of great matches?
• Does he draw a ton?
• Does he make anyone on the roster look great?
• Do people get excited and think "oh man, this will be good" when he comes out?

I think the only unarguable argument we can make is that he is not a draw. Mark Henry pretty much saved the ratings tank when Orton was on top during 2011-2012 Smackdown.

I would argue in his favor for the other points, but much like Orton I can be lazy as shit.

[sek69]

It seems like Orton is also in that class Kane was in where he apparently is easy to work with so his peers love him. 

[MoS]

LOL

[sek69]

Sasha got a taste of that Disney life, she'll be in that Dave Bautista no-fucks-given mode soon.

[Badlittlekitten]

Oh gosh, that just reminded me of the awful shit they were doing in 2018. Dr Shelby and all that nonsense. Boy, they've come far since then.

I do wonder if they've blown off their feud completely or if they're keeping them apart until Mania season. I don't see much else on the horizon they can do.

 

[SirEdger]

I think I just read that Eva Marie is supposed to be Angel Garza's secret crush and I'd be lying if I said that I'm not intrigued in the slightest way with this pairing. I think this could work.

[rovert]

54 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Sasha got a taste of that Disney life, she'll be in that Dave Bautista no-fucks-given mode soon.

The thing and the big thing with Sasha is that she quit school at 13 to look after her severely autistic brother so that her single mother could work and support the family. Sasha took classes online to finish high school. Her brother needs expensive specialised care for the rest of his life. A big reason pre-Star Wars why she was never leaving WWE or Wrestling despite rumours last year or whatever. She's someone who needs to embrace the money options always. Especially now when her in-ring and influence is basically sealed. And obviously more power to her.

[Coffey]

Here's a question:

If Randy Orton didn't get to join Evolution & thus get the rub from Triple H & Ric Flair & if he didn't take the Diamond Cutter from Diamond Dallas Page, would he even be over?

Because like, on his own, he's just bland as shit.

[sek69]

Honestly the Legend Killer gimmick is what got him over IMO. Beating up old timers got him that visceral "how dare you" heat, and in typical WWE fashion the only lesson the company learned was "we should only bring back legends to get beat up".

[Coffey]

I remember getting a kick out of his RNN shoulder injury updates. That was pretty early on but after he was already off of Velocity fodder.

[rovert]

4 hours ago, sek69 said:

Honestly the Legend Killer gimmick is what got him over IMO. Beating up old timers got him that visceral "how dare you" heat, and in typical WWE fashion the only lesson the company learned was "we should only bring back legends to get beat up".

I am honestly not entirely sure. He came up with Mavens, Jindraks and Lance Cades. He likely would have been fired for his personal problems without "a saviour" on the top of the card or in management pulling the strings.

[NintendoLogic]

Cade had Shawn Michaels advocating on his behalf, for all the good it did him. One major difference is that Orton is a second-generation guy (third-generation, actually), which gets you quite a bit of leeway in WWE. Look at how long Ray Gordy managed to stay on the roster.

[El-P]

Yep. *cough* Nia Jaxx *cough*

[MoS]

I know I pick on Charlotte a lot, but seriously, can she ever in good faith claim she does the same with the people she works with? Sasha and Bayley absolutely can.

 

[NintendoLogic]

She elevates people simply by allowing them to share the ring with her and bask in her greatness. So Asuka was elevated by Charlotte ending her unbeaten streak right before losing the title to Carmella. And the NXT women were elevated by Charlotte coming down and beating everybody and then dropping the belt without being pinned or submitted. People call her CHHHarlotte for a reason.

[DMJ]

I'm not sure Charlotte not elevating other talent is necessarily her fault. When you're booked to be the top act and then you continually perform well in that role, you can get called out for "burying" or holding back others. Cena had that label. Austin had that label. Triple H and Hogan had that label. 

Mileage varies in regards to whether said wrestler is deserving of that criticism or not or even what wrestlers they should've put over and shouldn't have put over and when. 

Its also often misconstrued that "elevating" means "putting over" (not that you're doing that). Bianca is right that Sasha and Bayley have done a nice job of bringing other talents into the mix. Roman Reigns did a helluva job doing it for Jey Uso, who now feels like an established singles guy more than I ever thought possible. 

But is it a fact that Charlotte hasn't? If you look back at the Women's Revolution, Charlotte's last name, marketability, and natural "star power" really helped. She instantly stood out as the spotlight attraction of the whole bunch and, whether you find her work good or bad, she was the anchor of the entire division for years. I don't think Sasha, Bayley, or Becky get as over without Charlotte Flair. 

A few years back, Charlotte and Ruby Riott had a kickass match on a B-level PPV. Anyone with their eyes open could see that Riott was really talented and deserved to be in the mix moving forward. Vince must've been napping because Riott hasn't really had many opportunities since. But is that on Charlotte? I don't think so. Vince doesn't see Ruby Riott as a star. 

He didn't see Rhea Ripley as worthy of beating Charlotte either. And why would he? We saw Bayley, Asuka, and Baszler come out of NXT after much, much hotter runs and not get "the rocket" either. Regardless, Charlotte isn't the one making the decisions and I don't recall her sandbagging Ripley at WrestleMania.

[sek69]

So either Charlotte is HHH and is using her pull to put herself over, or is she babyface era Roman getting pushed too hard by the company to the detriment of everyone around her? One difference that stands out to me is she isn't getting the backlash from fans like Roman did (well other than ones on the internet anyway), which indicates to me the company is taking measures to protect her from that. Whether or not that's due to her politicking or not is a matter for debate I suppose.

[MoS]

3 hours ago, DMJ said:

But is it a fact that Charlotte hasn't? If you look back at the Women's Revolution, Charlotte's last name, marketability, and natural "star power" really helped. She instantly stood out as the spotlight attraction of the whole bunch and, whether you find her work good or bad, she was the anchor of the entire division for years. I don't think Sasha, Bayley, or Becky get as over without Charlotte Flair. 

I would say, yes, it's a fact. Also the big 4 came up simultaneously, so it's really unfair to say that they wouldn't have got over as much without Charlotte. Hell, I think Sasha would have been much more over much more quickly if Charlotte had not beaten her like a drum in every important match. Becky was also getting over with the groundswell of fan support with or without Charlotte

[Badlittlekitten]

I'm no Charlotte Flair fan but to say she didn't help get Becky Lynch massively over is complete hogwash. Yes, Becky was always popular, but Charlotte getting punked, chumped and beaten by her for months as she got to look like a badass took her to another level.

[MoS]

31 minutes ago, Badlittlekitten said:

I'm no Charlotte Flair fan but to say she didn't help get Becky Lynch massively over is complete hogwash. Yes, Becky was always popular, but Charlotte getting punked, chumped and beaten by her for months as she got to look like a badass took her to another level.

I think it's the heel turn that was not really a heel turn cemented her as a top face. The promos she cut as a supposed heel pushed her to the next level, and then the happy accident with getting her nose busted pushed her to the highest level. I guess you can say that it would never have worked had fans not resented Charlotte as a face, but I feel that's a different argument and indeed, it reinforces my point. 

[Badlittlekitten]

It was a perfect storm but beating someone with the credibility of Charlotte over and over undoubtedly played a massive part.