The WON HOF 2007 thread

[Bix]

From WC (spyware alert)...

 

Regarding Chris Benoit, here is the situation. For this year, things will stay status quo. Benoit was voted in and will remain in for another year. To try and get more of a detached situation, in 2008, we will have a recall election for Benoit. Houston Mitchell of the Los Angeles Times, who is our sports Hall of Fame expert, checked with the NFL and Major League Baseball Hall of Fames on how they would handle a similar situation. In both cases, if a Hall of Famer committed a crime of the magnitude of murder, there would be a recall election with similar standards of being voted in. In other words, next year, Benoit will be on the ballot for a recall. If 60% of the voters decide to eliminate Benoit, he will be out. If you are wondering about the NFL never doing this with O.J. Simpson, it is because being acquitted of the crime meant the NFL Hall of Fame would open itself up for legal action had they started a process to potentially remove him over that crime. Had Simpson been convicted, the process would have taken place.

No full ballot yet, but Rey Mysterio & The Rock are eligible this year. Hans Schmidt & Enrique Torres have been added to the ballot.

 

Rey & Rock both seem like gimmes, though I'm curious if Rey is going to be considered an "American" or "Mexican" candidate (he should be the former for a number of reasons, IMO).

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Am I the only one who finds it hilarious how seriously Dave takes this thing? I mean, a recall election?

[Bix]

Houston Mitchell of the Los Angeles Times, who is our sports Hall of Fame expert, checked with the NFL and Major League Baseball Hall of Fames on how they would handle a similar situation. In both cases, if a Hall of Famer committed a crime of the magnitude of murder, there would be a recall election with similar standards of being voted in.

[Loss]

It's kind of a lose-lose situation. I suspect Meltzer knows bringing it up is a little silly, but knows he will get criticism for it if he doesn't.

 

I can't wait to hear the arguments that Rey *shouldn't* go in, and I know they're coming and will include the words "cruiserweight", "short" and/or "Mexican" (not necessarily in that order).

 

The Rock is an absolute slam-dunk pick. I would be surprised if he got anything but 100% of the vote, unless HHH has a ballot for some reason.

 

With what they've accomplished at this stage, sadly, Rey and Rock are really the last guys who aren't in the HOF who should be, except for maybe some of the pre-modern era types that Steve Yohe digs up.

 

Will this finally be the year for Aja Kong? Or the Rock & Roll Express, who have a stronger case than the already-inducted Ted DiBiase or Kurt Angle for starters.

 

Everyone should feel free to Gordy List anyone.

[Indikator]

Why do you think Morton & Gibson have a stronger case than Angle? R&R's peaks weren't that long, outside their first JCP run they don't have much speaking for them. If you include other territorial runs you lower the bar significantly - which is the way this and every other HoF is going anyway.

[Guest CompletePlayer]

Will this finally be the year for Aja Kong?

I am sure Aja got in last year

[Bix]

With what they've accomplished at this stage, sadly, Rey and Rock are really the last guys who aren't in the HOF who should be, except for maybe some of the pre-modern era types that Steve Yohe digs up.

I think there's a pretty strong argument for Murdoch, whose chances are probably hurt by The Rock getting votes from people who might not usually vote for Americans except if they're slam dunks.

 

Will this finally be the year for Aja Kong?

She went in last year.

 

Or the Rock & Roll Express, who have a stronger case than the already-inducted Ted DiBiase or Kurt Angle for starters.

 

Everyone should feel free to Gordy List anyone.

Why do you think Morton & Gibson have a stronger case than Angle? R&R's peaks weren't that long, outside their first JCP run they don't have much speaking for them. If you include other territorial runs you lower the bar significantly - which is the way this and every other HoF is going anyway.

???

 

They were a big part of Mid-South's biggest money year ever in 1984 (not sure if that includes the years Leroy McGuirk owned the territory before it was Mid-South) and a top working team for just over a decade (formation in '83 to the Heavenly Bodies leaving SMW in '94, and if you want to add stuff outside the team, Morton was fantastic going back to '79 at least). Angle was never really a draw on his own, and was only a top worker for somewhere between two to six years depending on who you're asking.

[sek69]

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why the RnR's aren't already in. Them being out are one of the HOF's biggest embarrassments, the only other one that comes close is Angle being in pretty much only because Dave's a mark for legitimacy.

[Tim Evans]

Are the midnight's in? If they are in, It's silly that RNR's aren't in.

[Bix]

I have yet to hear a convincing argument for why the RnR's aren't already in. Them being out are one of the HOF's biggest embarrassments, the only other one that comes close is Angle being in pretty much only because Dave's a mark for legitimacy.

Well, Jimmy Lennon too.

 

Are the midnight's in? If they are in, It's silly that RNR's aren't in.

No, they're not.

[Al]

There should be more tag teams in, otherwise it's fairly solid.

 

Personally though, I think they bring up wrestlers for election too early. The problem for Dave is that if he doesn't induct anyone, the sales will drop.

[Tim Evans]

I don't think Rey should be in this year. Especially after the last thing people will remember him by is that horrible "For Eddie" title run. It wasn't all his fault but it really showed his weakness. If he retired in 98 after his injuries started to stall him, he'd be in already.

[Bix]

No, he wouldn't be in already because this is his first year on the ballot.

 

Plus, I don't think the Eddy stuff will pull him down much as he's not a marginal candidate at all.

[Loss]

The Rock & Rolls were a big part of Crockett's success in 1985-1986 as well. There were lots of things clicking in JCP at that point, but the Rock & Rolls programs with the Russians, Midnight Express and Four Horsemen were all hugely successful. Flair/Morton was drew well, and they had some great matches.

 

In '94, SMW was in many cases drawing comparable house show attendance to WCW (or even outdrawing shows headlined by Flair/Hogan matches), without the benefits of national television exposure and WCW's all-star lineup on top.

 

Yes, Morton carried Gibson, and there were other teams wrestling at the same time whose stuff holds up in some cases better (re: Fantastics), but to me, the only US tag team that has a better case is the Road Warriors, who are already in.

 

In five years or so, many people will be arguing for Matt and Jeff to be going in as a team. I don't see a Hardys argument (which is definitely there) without a Rock & Rolls argument.

[Cox]

One place where I think Meltzer really screwed up with the Hall was putting Jim Cornette in without the Midnight Express. The bulk of the reasoning behind Cornette being in the Hall is because of his work with the MX, as I doubt anybody is putting him in for his success as a promoter with SMW, or his run with Yokozuna, and definitely not for being the Director of Authority for TNA. But you can't induct Lane and Eaton, or Eaton and Condrey without Cornette, because it was really the entire package, and Cornette already being in hurts their candidacy, even though I think they should be in. To me, that's the most glaring omission from the Hall of Fame, though I certainly see a great case for the Rock 'n' Rolls as well. Also, it's kind of a shame for Arn Anderson, Ole Anderson, and Tully Blanchard that Flair did so much on his own, because I could also see a case for the original Horsemen being in the Hall, also a shame that the Arn/Tully team really only had about 2-3 years working because with a little more longevity, I could see them being in as well. But I think it's pretty clear, as has been mentioned, that the biggest thing missing from the Hall right now are tag teams - the 80's in particular had a lot of great working and drawing tag teams that aren't in.

[sek69]

Why can't the WON HOF be like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame where guys can be inducted as a solo artist and a group? If John Lennon can be in as a solo artist and the Beatles as a group, why can't Ric Flair and the Horsemen be the same way?

 

Also, why is Rey considered such a solid candidate? If you use the usual Gordy List standard, I don't really see where you can say he's had a Hall of Fame career. OK, he brought a bigger Hispanic audience to Smackdown and he's certainly a draw, but doesn't the HOF require someone to be a clear top draw? He seems to be the wrestling equivalent to the "it's not the Hall of Very Good" argument that comes up in other sports HOF discussions.

[Bix]

Why can't the WON HOF be like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame where guys can be inducted as a solo artist and a group? If John Lennon can be in as a solo artist and the Beatles as a group, why can't Ric Flair and the Horsemen be the same way?

That's a good question, and I don't know why.

 

Also, why is Rey considered such a solid candidate? If you use the usual Gordy List standard, I don't really see where you can say he's had a Hall of Fame career. OK, he brought a bigger Hispanic audience to Smackdown and he's certainly a draw, but doesn't the HOF require someone to be a clear top draw? He seems to be the wrestling equivalent to the "it's not the Hall of Very Good" argument that comes up in other sports HOF discussions.

Longevity as a top worker, influence, historical significance.

[Guest KCook]

Also, why is Rey considered such a solid candidate? If you use the usual Gordy List standard, I don't really see where you can say he's had a Hall of Fame career.

Actually I think he does about as well as anyone can do without being a Ric Flair-class guy by that standard. He has enormous influence, great longevity, a huge body of great matches—and he's been one of the biggest draw in the world for years, an effective anchor of the promotion, etc. If he was a baseball player he'd be Cal Ripken, maybe someone better than that.

 

Also, this Benoit recall bit is retarded. It's fucking pro wrestling, if you open this can of worms you'll end up tossing out two thirds of the people in there now.

[sek69]

Is Rey that much of an influence? I'm not saying he's not or can't be one, I just never heard of anyone basing their style specifically on him. I'm not sure about the historical significance thing either, he was a part of the first wave of lucha stars to make an impact in the US, yes, but again I don't think there is anything specifically about Rey that would stand out as historically significant. He certainly has the longevity and the drawing power, but I don't know if that's enough.

 

I mean, I wouldn't object to Rey being in the HOF, but there's certainly a case that can be made against him that doesn't involve the "OMGZ HE'Z TEH SMALLZ" argument that you know we're going to hear about.

[Guest KCook]

I can't think of many more influential wrestlers over the last ten or fifteen years. First, he singlehandedly redefined what it was physically possible to do in a ring, and that changed how juniors wrestled. The great juniors before him were guys like Takada and Benoit who were basically short heavyweights working a heavyweight style. Second he completely changed Mexican wrestling. The fast, flashy highspot stuff just wasn't at the top of the cards before he came in. It's not just Mistico (though the fact that a Rey knockoff can get that hot tells you all you need to know), it's the whole structure of matches and entire style, from pacing to the role of hold-for-hold wrestling. Third, more or less every viable indy in this decade in Japan and the U.S. has been patterned largely on the style he made possible. After that you get into the stuff about him breaking size barriers in the U.S. and WWE, which I don't think is all that important but should get him some credit.

[sek69]

But it wasn't just Rey who pioneered that style, Juvi and Psicosis were right there as well. I guess Rey gets points for not being a fuckup like those two were, but at the same time he wasn't single-handedly changing the world. I don't want to come off as completely discounting Rey's contributions, but the indy fast paced style seemed to be more based on their view of Lucha in general than Rey specifically. He was certainly a big part, no doubt, but it seems like an important distinction to make.

[kjh]

Here's the ballot with new candidates bolded:

 

PERFORMERS LIST

 

Jun Akiyama

Gene & Ole Anderson

Masked Assassins (Jody Hamilton & Tom Renesto)

Red Bastien

Carlos Colon

The Dudley Boys (Bubba Ray & D-Von)

Ultimo Guerrero & Rey Bucanero

Gran Hamada

Volk Han

Owen Hart

Curt Hennig

Chris Jericho

Satoshi Kojima

Ivan Koloff

Konnan

Karloff Lagarde

Jose Lothario

Mark Lewin

Midnight Express (Dennis Condrey & Bobby Eaton & Stan Lane)

Bill Miller

Fabulous Moolah

Dick Murdoch

Rey Mysterio

Paul Orndorff

Blue Panther

The Rock (Dwayne Johnson)

Rock & Roll Express

Rick Rude

Sabu

Seiji Sakaguchi

Masa Saito

Kensuke Sasaki

Hans Schmidt

Sgt. Slaughter

Jimmy Snuka

Wilbur Snyder

Steiner Brothers

Sting

Kiyoshi Tamura

John Tolos

Enrique Torres

Universo 2000

Rob Van Dam

Villano III

Vampiro

Kerry Von Erich

Dr. Wagner Sr.

Johnny "Mr. Wrestling II" Walker

Tim "Mr. Wrestling" Woods

 

NON-WRESTLER LIST

 

Lou Albano

Paco Alonso

Jim Crockett Jr.

Gary Hart

Jerry Jarrett

Gorilla Monsoon

Don Owen

Roy Shire

Jesse Ventura

[Loss]

People talk about Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels breaking down size barriers, but guys like Bret and Shawn were able to get work in the big man's WWF for years before either became a big star. Rey getting hired and getting over opened the door for lots of smaller guys to get hired and get over. Rey's influence is phenomenal.

[kjh]

Rey getting hired and getting over opened the door for lots of smaller guys to get hired and get over.

In WWE? The same promotion where currently you have to be over 6 foot tall and a muscular 225 pounds to even be considered for a developmental contract unless your dad was in the business. The fact is very few smaller guys are getting hired and if they are lucky enough to be hired and promoted to the main roster they aren't pushed past the meaningless cruiserweight or tag divisions. Rey is an anomaly within WWE, not some sort of trendsetter that changed Vince McMahon's narrow perceptions about what a wrestler should look like.

 

That said, I don't disagree that Rey's influence was phenomenal, but more for the reasons Kevin Cook suggested.

[Jingus]

Until I see another guy Rey's size (and ethnicity) hold a world heavyweight belt, I'd say he was the exception and not the new rule.

 

What I wonder about the whole thing: what's the point of a HOF, anyway? It doesn't provide any extra money or bookings. It's not an across-the-board list that's accepted by everyone in the industry (as the WWE's even more pointless HOF demonstrates). Every year the inductions tend to turn into one big popularity contest. Hell, I bet half the guys on the nomination list have never even heard of it. It's like if some obscure fan newsletter held their own version of the Oscars. I understand the desire to have these wrestlers remembered for their contributions, but all it would take for this HOF to disappear forever would be for the Observer to go bankrupt.