MoS Posted March 2, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2021 5 hours ago, El-P said: Let's not forget the "giant" gimmick was much easier to book when guys weren't on national TV every week and there was not nearly the same access to footage from elsewhere. The mystique is easier to attain when a guy shows up three times a year in a territory than when you're an a weekly TV show where you have to work competitive matches all the time because the audience is just not gonna stay interested in a tall guy squashing people for very long. As I said, Gorilla Monsoon was a weekly attraction, appearing on local TV and wrestling on local cards all over the territory on a weekly/monthly basis. 4 hours ago, pmo said: That said I its kind of split decision for me. Vince Sr. was more conservative and his product was more consistent but was never as exciting. Vince Jr has the higher highs but lows are just awful. Didn't he have a theory that the business should always be simmering, but never too hot because the latter wouldn't last forever, and the fans, having experienced it, would no longer be satisfied with the normal levels and would just leave in droves. As you said, it is a very conservative idea, but when trying to book a stable long-term entertainment product, that's not a totally bad thing. Plus he would peak the product at times, and especially in the last few years of his career, he started filling out the cards and having a lot of hot matches and angles on his shows, instead of "Bruno and everyone else." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funkdoc Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 As the Titans of Wrestling crew have noted, Vince Sr. would only book one or two actual angles a year for the most part. It's just that those angles were money far more often than not - the Cobra Clutch Challenge, breaking Andre's leg, etc. i actually think Vince Jr. has been very smart in one way with giants: using the old giant to put over the new giant. Andre put over the Natural Disasters, who in turn put over Yoko, who in turn put over Vader, who in turn put over Kane & Mark Henry... Actually, before that phase the giant almost always seems to get shifted to the tag division first and get a title run there. Don't think that's too bad either, honestly, given that overexposure makes the classic Andre booking impossible. The trend of giving giants dancing comedy gimmicks to close out their run, on the other hand... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Did Vince Sr. even have many giants? Andre, Gorilla Monsoon, Haystacks Calhoun, then I kinda draw a blank. Early Big John Studd wasn't really a giant. Killer Kowalski was a beanpole by the '70s. I imagine him deliberately avoiding giants to make Andre seem more unique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I don't know if it was intentional or not (I'm suspecting it was) but it does appear Vince Sr avoided booking other giants to keep Andre unique. Once Andre became a established draw, you didn't really see a lot of other giants around. Didn't Vince Sr have a bunch of rules other promoters booking Andre had to follow? He clearly knew how to keep him special, and it worked considering how long he was a draw as an attraction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I think Vince Jr. did a pretty good job of protecting the Undertaker until around 1999 or so. He kept that mystique for a long time. They even did a good job with Kane for a solid year before moving him down the card. I even think they did a sort of decent job with Great Kahli for awhile as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Edit: Double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 1 hour ago, Al said: Did Vince Sr. even have many giants? Andre, Gorilla Monsoon, Haystacks Calhoun, then I kinda draw a blank. Early Big John Studd wasn't really a giant. Killer Kowalski was a beanpole by the '70s. I imagine him deliberately avoiding giants to make Andre seem more unique. There was also Ernie Ladd and, briefly, Don Leo Jonathan (who I think they didn't even book a singles match with Andre, only tags). Hogan as a heel was basically treated like a giant. Blackjack Mulligan was pretty huge. Still, Andre was much more physically imposing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 I don't even see an Andre match on there for Don. It looks like he worked Pedro, then Stongbow and then Bruno during his run in 74 which is kind of funny because he went to Western States and immediately did a couple of matches with Andre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Don Leo IIRC was pretty mobile for a big guy, so I assume Vince Sr didn't want to book him against an Andre who was slowing down almost daily even by the mid 70s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Jonathan was slowing down a bit by 74 but that guy did some crazy stuff for his size and for the time. We're talking kip ups, doing flips in the ropes to escape holds and dropkicks. He's one of my favorite big men and other than The Destroyer was one of my favorite discoveries on All Japan Classics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteF3 Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 Are we already forgetting Mighty Joe Thunder? For shame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 3, 2021 Report Share Posted March 3, 2021 51 minutes ago, Mad Dog said: I don't even see an Andre match on there for Don. It looks like he worked Pedro, then Stongbow and then Bruno during his run in 74 which is kind of funny because he went to Western States and immediately did a couple of matches with Andre. This match from 4/29/74 MSG is what I was thinking about. There's footage of it out there Chief Jay Strongbow & Andre the Giant defeated Otto Von Heller & Don Leo Jonathan in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0 Their feud in Montreal was legendary, prior to Andre coming to New York Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Posted March 4, 2021 Report Share Posted March 4, 2021 Oh yeah, you're right, missed that one. It was wedged in between working for another promotion. I remember liking his Champions Carnival match with Dory Funk Jr. in 75. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted March 4, 2021 Report Share Posted March 4, 2021 18 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said: This match from 4/29/74 MSG is what I was thinking about. There's footage of it out there Chief Jay Strongbow & Andre the Giant defeated Otto Von Heller & Don Leo Jonathan in a Best 2 out of 3 falls match, 2-0 Their feud in Montreal was legendary, prior to Andre coming to New York Are any of those Montreal matches available online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Jackson Posted March 4, 2021 Report Share Posted March 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Log said: Are any of those Montreal matches available online? Nothing I'm aware of unfortunately. Maybe some silent clips, but I dont think so. Next to nothing of early 70s Montreal available The MSG tag is here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 2, 2021 Report Share Posted April 2, 2021 This may be of interest to you: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 3, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2021 On 4/2/2021 at 10:26 AM, JerryvonKramer said: This may be of interest to you: Thank you so much for this. If I am being honest, there wasn't really anything in this video which I didn't already know, especially about Vince Sr's booking formula and the modus operandi, but it was so useful and helpful to have a podcast summarising the history of the biggest territory of all time. I loved this video, even though I have minor disagreements about WWWF champions' drawing power outside the Northeast, especially Bruno. But that doesn't really matter, and anyone in this world who claims to have any interest in the history of pro wrestling should watch this. Thanks for linking this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav'oh Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 On 3/2/2021 at 3:11 PM, Dav'oh said: Did Vince the elder keep his hand in things to any degree after selling it to his son? Reading up on Jim Barnett, it seems there was a meeting at Andre's ranch in North Carolina in late 1983, where Vincent K, Vincent J, Andre, Barnett, Pat Patterson and "a couple of other men" mapped out 1984 WWF. So if the Younger takes over in June 1982, that's nearly eighteen months later that an ailing (six-or-so months to live) Elder is still around, to whatever degree. (Don't know if answering your own questions is the done thing around here, but I figure someone has to find this interesting.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 I read also that Vince Sr handpicked George Scott to come in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 On 3/4/2021 at 1:43 PM, Log said: Are any of those Montreal matches available online? The only thing regarding these two that I have seen from Montréal is a small clip from the forum where they annonce it as the Match of the century being signed. There is not a lot of Montréal footage available sadly. Having been raised on Montréal wrestling (I am from Québec), I would love to see to old episodes from the studio in Sherbrooke with Édouard Carpentier and Guy Hauray announcing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Basically, the only matches available from the Montreal territory have been put together on the Golden Era of Quebec Wrestling DVD set that was released independently a few years ago (I have volumes 1 & 2 at home, only 3 missing) or if you're lucky, some people might upload their stuff on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 Is that the set with the Bravo/Martel match from Québec and the 3 Rougeau/Garvin Brothers matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirEdger Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 That's the one, yeop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryvonKramer Posted April 12, 2021 Report Share Posted April 12, 2021 Not sure where to put this but did there ever come a time when Gorilla Monsoon would stop making his "insider baseball" references. For example, he'd usually bring up Mr Perfect's father -- just little things like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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