MoS Posted March 25, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 9:14 PM, FMKK said: It’s funny that there’s a 8 page debate on this forum about how wrestling can’t attract new fans and then there’s people going mad in here that AEW is doing something to appeal to a different demographic. Something that proved reasonably successful at making the Bella Twins stars for WWE. Expand It made the Bella twins stars, absolutely, but from what I recall, it never led to any overlap or increase in viewership for WWE shows. I really doubt this show would lead to any new fan checking out AEW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 Apparently Natalya came off like a star too in those Diva whatever shows. Sure meant a *lot* in the actual product pro-wrestling fan watched. I watched like five minutes or something once. I was appalled by John Cena's house. The nouveau riche vulgarity of everything was just enough to make me want to vomit. These rich people, the issue is that they are really good at making a lot of money, but really bad at spending it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 Actually, the Bellas were responsible for a significant increase in female viewers for WWE at a time when the male audience was collapsing. It should be noted that the decline in WWE's female audience was matched by an even bigger decline in viewership for Total Divas and Total Bellas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 I know you hate my posts - at least lately - but two replies to the same post is a bit overmuch. And you never even bit on my Christian post from earlier. But anyway... On 3/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, El-P said: Not patronizing at all. You could have added a lolMOVEZ or something to boot. Expand On 3/25/2021 at 10:02 PM, El-P said: Again, not patronizing at all BTW. Expand Not patronizing, just honest. On 3/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, El-P said: I DON'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT MAINSTREAM FANS. Expand THEN YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE WRESTLING BUSINESS. On 3/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, El-P said: AEW's future "survival" (the idea of AEW having to "survive" is comical considering IMPACT is still in business almost 20 years in despite having been a complete business disaster) Expand Impact is a terrible example, and you know that. The Khans are not going to keep propping up a failed experiment like numerous people have done for Impact over the years. They're legit businessmen and much smarter than that. On 3/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, El-P said: If they want to be WWE, they'll go the way of every other promotion trying to be WWE. Expand I actually agree with this, to a degree, but... On 3/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, El-P said: AEW should focus on making the best hardcore promotion they can be Expand That really worked out well for ROH. Yeah, they're still in business, but nothing they do matters anymore. If AEW wants to be an irrelevant afterthought niche promotion like ROH and Impact, that's one thing, and nothing wrong with that, but clearly the Khans have a bigger vision. On 3/25/2021 at 10:02 PM, El-P said: For fuck's sake. It's not that hard to understand why a part of the AEW audience would not like that announcement at all. Expand I understand it. I just don't think that part of the audience actually matters if AEW ever wants to grow - and it clearly does. Many years ago, an internal memo leaked from Best Buy (or some situation along those lines) about "angel customers" and "devil customers." Basically, "devil customers" were the ones who chased deals and bargains exclusively, walked into the store with only that specific purchase in mind, and didn't buy anything else. "Angel customers" were the ones who walked into the store, were big spenders, often made impulse buys, etc. Best Buy was heavily ridiculed for that - and rightfully so - but they also had a point. When people say "I don't give a fuck about mainstream fans" or "I don't give a flying fuck how this reality show will help AEW," you're basically a shortsighted, toxic "devil customer" - someone no business actually has any interest in retaining, nor should they. On 3/25/2021 at 10:23 PM, El-P said: Apparently Natalya came off like a star too in those Diva whatever shows. Sure meant a *lot* in the actual product pro-wrestling fan watched. I watched like five minutes or something once. I was appalled by John Cena's house. The nouveau riche vulgarity of everything was just enough to make me want to vomit. These rich people, the issue is that they are really good at making a lot of money, but really bad at spending it. Expand Nattie on Total Divas is legitimately the most hilarious person the company has had in two decades - real comedy, not terrible "ha ha" WWE "comedy." I'm not even joking. If WWE let the Natalya character be what we saw on that show, she would've been a bigger star for sure. As for Cena and his nouveau riche house, sure, but that's the reality TV genre in general. I heard it wasn't his real house anyway, but I could be wrong about that or mixing it up with something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: Not patronizing, just honest. Expand Why are you even posting here then and not on reddit ? Since apparently the PWO/GWE kind of fans are the "wrong" kind ? The "right" kind being the kind who only cares about the mainstream promotion and acts like anything that doesn't happen there is beneath him. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: THEN YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE WRESTLING BUSINESS. Expand That was answered later. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: Impact is a terrible example, and you know that. The Khans are not going to keep propping up a failed experiment like numerous people have done for Impact over the years. They're legit businessman and much smarter than that. Expand ROH is still around. Promotion that almost died in Japan like AJPW and NOAH are still around. And the thing is, people are talking about doom & gloom for AEW since day 1. The Librarians and Micheal Nakazawa were gonna kill the promotions because it sent such a horrible message to anyone watching the Buys-Ins. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: Yeah, they're still in business, but nothing they do matters anymore. Expand To you maybe. To the people who work there, it sure matters. For the people who watch and enjoy their product (hi !), it sure matters. So again, patronizing tone. It's almost like the WWE mentality of "no one knows who these TNA people are", yet anytime someone from TNA showed up, they got the biggest pop. And BTW, it's kinda funny that nothing they do matters yet they are working with the N°1 company in Japan AND AEW, so I guess they matter more than say, ROH. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: I understand it. I just don't think that part of the audience actually matters if AEW ever wants to grow - and it clearly does. Expand Wait. The CORE audience doesn't matter ? You realize that in pro-wrestling, the only thing that remains once the fickle mainstream audience goes away (like they always do) is the CORE audience right ? Which is why WWE still can sell their shit, because they have a core audience who will watch it no matter how many Fiend segment they do ? If you manage to kill your core audience, you'll end up like WCW. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: When people say "I don't give a fuck about mainstream fans" or "I don't give a flying fuck how this reality show will help AEW," you're basically a shortsighted, toxic "devil customer" - someone no business actually has any interest in retaining, nor should they. Expand I'm not a brand fan. If AEW suddenly produced shit I don't want to see, I'll stop watching. So yeah, more power to them if they replace the "toxic fans" by the "good fans", but why should I personally give a fuck ? The thing is, a pro-wrestling company is not Best Buys or whatever. AEW trying to be WWE is not the way you want to go. On 3/25/2021 at 10:50 PM, C.S. said: As for Cena and his nouveau riche house, sure, but that's the reality TV genre in general. I heard it wasn't his real house anyway, but I could be wrong about that or mixing it up with something else. Expand Well, it makes those people come off really unlikeable. So, if it attracts people who love to watch unlikeable people doing shitty TV shows, more power to them, as long as I can get off on mOVEZ and fLiPS. Honestly a real TV show is not even the easiest way to go. They should just sign Enzo & Cass. Or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 11:08 PM, El-P said: Why are you even posting here then and not on reddit ? Since apparently the PWO/GWE kind of fans are the "wrong" kind ? The "right" kind being the kind who only cares about the mainstream promotion and acts like anything that doesn't happen there is beneath him. Expand Geez, man, I know you hate my posts, but banishing me to the hellscape that is Reddit (which, to be fair, I like outside of wrestling) is harsh. Anyway, you are putting words into my mouth. There is nothing wrong with watching and enjoying all kinds of wrestling, obviously - but if I'm running a business, you're damn right I want to be a mainstream promotion. That's why the reality show is a good idea. On 3/25/2021 at 11:08 PM, El-P said: And the thing is, people are talking about doom & gloom for AEW since day 1. The Librarians and Micheal Nakazawa were gonna kill the promotions because it sent such a horrible message to anyone watching the Buys-Ins. Expand Not me! I never minded The Librarians, and Micheal Nakazawa was weird but never exactly focused on, so that didn't matter either. All wrestling promotions are going to experiment, have stupid gimmicks, try shit that doesn't work, etc. - that's par for the course. On 3/25/2021 at 11:08 PM, El-P said: To you maybe. To the people who work there, it sure matters. For the people who watch and enjoy their product (hi !), it sure matters. Expand A fair point. I'll give you that. But you have to give me that the Khans clearly want AEW to be bigger than ROH and Impact, and chasing avenues that get them there is simply smarter business. Their success also good for wrestling fans in general - even the ones who don't like AEW. On 3/25/2021 at 11:08 PM, El-P said: Wait. The CORE audience doesn't matter ? You realize that in pro-wrestling, the only thing that remains once the fickle mainstream audience goes away (like they always do) is the CORE audience right ? Which is why WWE still can sell their shit, because they have a core audience who will watch it no matter how many Fiend segment they do ? If you manage to kill your core audience, you'll end up like WCW. Expand Not exactly what I said, but maybe I wasn't clear, so I'll rephrase. Yes, the core audience is important, but AEW already has them and probably always will. That is different from the toxic "I only like what I like and don't give a fuck how this benefits the company" types. Those fans aren't worth keeping, period. I stand by that. That is why I mentioned the Best Buy example - not because I think the two businesses are similar (they obviously aren't). On 3/25/2021 at 11:08 PM, El-P said: They should just sign Enzo & Cass. Expand They should, but that's another argument for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 10:11 PM, MoS said: It made the Bella twins stars, absolutely, but from what I recall, it never led to any overlap or increase in viewership for WWE shows. I really doubt this show would lead to any new fan checking out AEW. Expand It might not but if they’re going to grow then they need to try different things and some of it will be stuff that wrestling fans like us might not necessarily like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NintendoLogic Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 The librarians and Nakazawa have been banished to Dark/Elevation, so AEW evidently agrees with those who thought having them on the Buy-In shows was driving away fans. In fact, that's probably the best thing about AEW. If something clearly isn't working, they try to figure out why and course correct instead of doubling down and trying to beat the audience into submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 11:22 PM, C.S. said: but if I'm running a business, you're damn right I want to be a mainstream promotion. Expand Wait, are you running AEW ? Are you Coach Tony K. ? On 3/25/2021 at 11:22 PM, C.S. said: But you have to give me that the Khans clearly want AEW to be bigger than ROH and Impact, and chasing avenues that get them there is simply smarter business. Expand Chasing other avenues hasn't been exactly the best business model for growing pro-wrestling promotions. Sure, the Reality TV show stuff works *for WWE*, and I would guess they do *because* they emanate from WWE to begin with (and build from there). But again, do something to get eyes on your *pro-wrestling* stuff, sure. But a reality TV show... Plus we dont know how much of AEW money is going into producing that stuff either. On 3/25/2021 at 11:28 PM, FMKK said: It might not but if they’re going to grow then they need to try different things and some of it will be stuff that wrestling fans like us might not necessarily like Expand The issue is, the desire for an alternative in *pro-wrestling* is what drove AEW to existence and the insane enthousiasm at first. Them going straight into WWE-like ventures doesn't seem like the best idea. Also, the one thing that has been mentioned before but undersold, is that the QT angle at first seemed to be designed for Lee Johnson (with actually quite an interesting subtle angle). Now Cody is putting himself into what looked to be some undercard angle to get some light on a promising young talent, all to promote his reality TV show. Again, not coming off good, not to mention QT is way lower on the totem pole whereas against Johnson it was a much more balanced feud while having a much stronger mentor/student aspect since QT is known as the trainer of the promotion. Yeah, sorry, but I'm not a fan of any of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 25, 2021 Report Share Posted March 25, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 11:32 PM, NintendoLogic said: The librarians and Nakazawa have been banished to Dark/Elevation, Expand They have never been a part of Dynamite. They were always supposed to be JTTS (well, and do backstage work). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, El-P said: Wait, are you running AEW ? Are you Coach Tony K. ? Expand Damn, you got me, bro. I'm Tony K, and I started PWO threads for WWE Fastlane and NXT Halloween Havoc (among others) because I'm just that generous to my competitors. On 3/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, El-P said: Chasing other avenues hasn't been exactly the best business model for growing pro-wrestling promotions. Sure, the Reality TV show stuff works *for WWE*, and I would guess they do *because* they emanate from WWE to begin with (and build from there). But again, do something to get eyes on your *pro-wrestling* stuff, sure. But a reality TV show... Plus we dont know how much of AEW money is going into producing that stuff either. Expand It's not meant to be the only model for growing a wrestling promotion though. As one of many strategies, it's effective and it has historically worked. Seeing Roddy Piper in They Live, Hulk Hogan in No Holds Barred (I know, I know - Rocky III is obviously the better example to use here, but I've never seen it), various sitcom appearances by wrestlers, Sergeant Slaughter on G.I. Joe, etc. all piqued my interest in wrestling little by little until I finally decided to try this pro wrestling thing. On 3/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, El-P said: Now Cody is putting himself into what looked to be some undercard angle to get some light on a promising young talent, all to promote his reality TV show. Expand But if the reality show shines a spotlight on said undercard talent and makes them a draw to newer audiences, why not? At worst, they remain where they are, and no harm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/26/2021 at 12:09 AM, C.S. said: But if the reality show shines a spotlight on said undercard talent and makes them a draw to newer audiences, why not? Expand Cody replaced the promising young talent, who's not in the picture anymore it appears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 12:06 PM, joeg said: Kingston might be the most believable promo ever. Everybody knows an Eddie Kingston. Everybody knows THAT GUY, which is why he is so relatable. I don't know many over emotional cowboys, quirky cult members, video game nerds, lazy bums who rock a demin jacket, etc. But I know plenty of blue collar working class stiffs who came up hard, harbor some resentment for their station in life, and aren't afraid to throw down if provoked. An Eddie Kingston can be found at any dive bar or union hall in any town in the northeastern US. MJF is also a super believable character. If you've ever golfed a round at an exclusive country club, attended an elite private private school, or been to a rubber chicken fundraiser, you've met an MJF. Some of his one liners are vicious, I'm surprised he gets away with some of that as he's often burying the other guy, but it makes me laugh. Expand Hangman is INCREDIBLY relatable. Anxious millennials with impostor syndrome and a drinking problem sounds like a really high percentage of my friends. Also, pretty sure everyone knows a video game nerd now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Migs Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 I don't care if it brings new fans or not, the Cody/Brandi show is going to be fucking hilarious. They were great on that terrible WAGS Atlanta show and Cody has shown on BTE that he's got great timing. Might take a crack at getting my wife to watch it with me (she really liked Total Divas/Bellas for a while but I don't think it upped her wrestling consumption much at all). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FMKK Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 11:37 PM, El-P said: Wait, are you running AEW ? Are you Coach Tony K. ? Chasing other avenues hasn't been exactly the best business model for growing pro-wrestling promotions. Sure, the Reality TV show stuff works *for WWE*, and I would guess they do *because* they emanate from WWE to begin with (and build from there). But again, do something to get eyes on your *pro-wrestling* stuff, sure. But a reality TV show... Plus we dont know how much of AEW money is going into producing that stuff either. The issue is, the desire for an alternative in *pro-wrestling* is what drove AEW to existence and the insane enthousiasm at first. Them going straight into WWE-like ventures doesn't seem like the best idea. Also, the one thing that has been mentioned before but undersold, is that the QT angle at first seemed to be designed for Lee Johnson (with actually quite an interesting subtle angle). Now Cody is putting himself into what looked to be some undercard angle to get some light on a promising young talent, all to promote his reality TV show. Again, not coming off good, not to mention QT is way lower on the totem pole whereas against Johnson it was a much more balanced feud while having a much stronger mentor/student aspect since QT is known as the trainer of the promotion. Yeah, sorry, but I'm not a fan of any of this. Expand You’re aware that they aren’t cancelling doing matches on Dynamite to be replaced with Brandi shopping segments, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 The only downside to this Cody/Brandi reality show is that it's not about Christian instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/26/2021 at 12:32 AM, FMKK said: You’re aware that they aren’t cancelling doing matches on Dynamite to be replaced with Brandi shopping segments, right? Expand No shit ? I'm talking about the perception of the promotion by its audience. We talked in length with the Christian deal about how they did not want to be TNA-like. It's kinda the same thing here, it's a very WWE-like programming. Again, if it works, more power to them. But there's nothing surprising about some backlash or tedious reaction to this announcement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 The issue for me is that Cody and Brandi come off as massive narcissists who put themselves before the best interests of the show and this just re-enforces that. If it's anything like Total Divas, they'll try and have some cross-over but it's so vague that you really have to watch both shows to make sense of it and AEW has enough trouble with that and BTE. Maybe that's my projection and the show will exist inside it's own vacuum. That would be fine, but when I think back to the early days of Dynamite what made Cody stand out was his ability to connect with the crowd. I just see this as an unnecessary obstacle and it feeds into this idea of Cody trying his best to emulate John Cena circa 2015-18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDuke Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 Babyface Eddie Kingston reminds me of babyface Roddy Piper. I hope when this Moxley storyline is done they can put him in some singles feuds against top heels where he can really go off on promos against them because I think he would really get over as a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted March 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 I imagine Kingston will in the future make for a very good transitional babyface champ between two heels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/25/2021 at 8:41 PM, C.S. said: Then you don't give a flying fuck about AEW's future survival. This post is exactly why AEW needs to grow its audience beyond the toxic geek message board bubble rasslin' fanbase. But I get the sense that some folks here wouldn't really care if AEW is gasping for breath in ten years on a z-grade network or streaming service, completely irrelevant - just like Impact is - as long a Chris Bey type does cool flips for $25 a night while working a Hot Topic mall kiosk on the side. Expand Oh, fuck off. I'm a fan of AEW and I am very positive about them overall. This reality show isn't going to insure the future of the wrestling company or any of the other bullshit your grasping for here. Making Dynamite the best show it can be will insure their future. Some reality show done with nothing remotely unique from every other one out there isn't going to do that. Plus, do you even know if the show will bring any income to AEW itself or to just the Rhodes family? Let's not forget that Total Divas was on Bravo. That's a network known for it's reality shows. It has a built-in fanbase that will watch anything new they put out. That definitely helped them. Cody and Brandi aren't that recognizable to the general public. People aren't going to stop and watch because that blonde dude from the show with Snoop Dogg is on. Quit clutching your pearls at me for not seeing how this show will help at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 Your Jim Cornette style of rambling ranting - loudly telling me to "fuck off" and suggesting I'm "clutching my pearls" (whatever that means) - does your post no favors and makes me feel thoroughly embarrassed for you. The only reason I'm bothering to respond at all is because you bring up a couple of interesting points here: On 3/26/2021 at 5:42 PM, Log said: Plus, do you even know if the show will bring any income to AEW itself or to just the Rhodes family? Expand Since Tony K is going to be on the show and it was advertised on Dynamite, I assume AEW is getting a cut. But even if the Rhodes family pockets all the green (which I find highly unlikely), it's still free publicity for AEW. On 3/26/2021 at 5:42 PM, Log said: Let's not forget that Total Divas was on Bravo. That's a network known for it's reality shows. It has a built-in fanbase that will watch anything new they put out. That definitely helped them. Cody and Brandi aren't that recognizable to the general public. People aren't going to stop and watch because that blonde dude from the show with Snoop Dogg is on. Expand Good point about Bravo. The Bellas and Nattie weren't recognizable to the general public at first either, as I'm sure you realize, but I guess that's where Bravo made the difference. As for the show Cody and Snoop Dogg are on, that has very minimal promotion for AEW, I'm assuming - the same reason that Shawn Michaels hunting show didn't make a difference for WWE. But something like this - which will mention, promote, and show AEW behind the scenes - is a much different situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 Don't throw Cornette's name in there to try to paint me as some loony. I made a post about how I don't like this new reality show and you came at me with a bunch of crap about how I'm a bad fan and people like me are going to make AEW fail, blah blah blah. Don't take your high road now. Other people called you our for the same stuff here. I know it's your thing to pick some random-ass point and then dig in on it, so go for it. In a year, when the Rhodes reality show is the biggest thing on television and it's skyrocketed AEW to newfound heights, you can rub it in my face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted March 26, 2021 Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/26/2021 at 6:20 PM, Log said: I know it's your thing to pick some random-ass point and then dig in on it, so go for it. Expand Didn't realize this was my thing, but okay. On 3/26/2021 at 6:20 PM, Log said: In a year, when the Rhodes reality show is the biggest thing on television and it's skyrocketed AEW to newfound heights, you can rub it in my face. Expand Never once said that would be the case, but okay. It's one of hopefully many strategies to attract new fans. It can only help and can't hurt. The worst that can happen is that no one will watch it and it get cancelled and fades away into obscurity as a future joke on BTE and a "remember that thing" trivia question - no real harm done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted March 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2021 On 3/26/2021 at 6:00 PM, C.S. said: Your Jim Cornette style of rambling ranting - loudly telling me to "fuck off" and suggesting I'm "clutching my pearls" (whatever that means) - does your post no favors and makes me feel thoroughly embarrassed for you. Expand You don't really have any locus standi to accuse others of being rude when most of your posts about this have been calling most people who post here (and on Reddit) toxic, essentially stupid. Using rasslin' as a pejorative was perhaps droll and on-point 35 years ago, but now it's just tired and cliché Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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