CM Punk vs Owen Hart

[elliott]

These two finished within 12 spots of each other last time with an average vote 50 & 57. So they were pretty close last time around. What do you think?

[Loss]

Punk beats him on quality output, but Owen is just so vastly better at the mechanics and technique of pro wrestling, and his personality doesn't get the credit it deserves either.

[Matt D]

31 minutes ago, Loss said:

Punk beats him on quality output, but Owen is just so vastly better at the mechanics and technique of pro wrestling, and his personality doesn't get the credit it deserves either.

Do you see a difference in sheets-darling Owen pre-94 and more character driven Owen post-turn?

[Loss]

Not really a huge one. 

[kid dracula]

I happened to watch Owen vs 1-2-3 Kid from KOTR this past weekend, and not to be inflammatory, but I think I would take that four minutes over Punk's whole career. Owen was really incredible. 

[DylanZero]

This is a near perfect matchup. Wrestling's most overrated performer in history vs. arguably it's most underrated. Owen is so far ahead of Punk in literally every possible way as a wrestler it's absurd to even compare. You can guarantee one of his fans will say something like "Did Owen have any matches as good as MITB 2011!?" and the rest of us can shake our heads in pity.

[Matt D]

Punk got a hell of a lot out of a hell of a lot less. Owen has years where I'd argue he didn't at all make the most of his talent in ring (just because you can do something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do). You can't really deny the talent gap though.

[El Dragon]

9 hours ago, DylanZero said:

This is a near perfect matchup. Wrestling's most overrated performer in history vs. arguably it's most underrated. Owen is so far ahead of Punk in literally every possible way as a wrestler it's absurd to even compare. You can guarantee one of his fans will say something like "Did Owen have any matches as good as MITB 2011!?" and the rest of us can shake our heads in pity.

This post gave me a good chuckle, and I shake my head in pity in your direction as well.

This is an interesting one because one has every tool you could ever want but just doesn’t put it all together as frequently as I’d generally like in Owen. You could attribute that to the environment and probably not be wrong, but I think there is also merit to the idea that Owen tended to just coast. Wrestling was a job to Owen, not a passion, and it shows in his work. I would also note that I don’t blame him for his view, but it also jumps off the screen for me. 
 

Punk is the inverse. No natural athleticism, a non elite look, and always struggled with execution. But when he was active he breathed wrestling, and would do anything he could to make whatever he was doing feel important and note worthy through force of character, commitment, and will. From the matches with Joe in RoH, his brawls with Rave and Raven (Punk really didn’t like anyone with the letters “rave” in there names in RoH, did he? Didn’t even like the Special K ravers), to his run in WWE with the Hardy feud, Rey feud, Cena feud, and the Brock match, he always manages to make his moments feel undeniably important and compelling, and none of those matches ever didn’t succeed. He has an incredible ability to make you forget who CM Punk actually is in matches: It was a running joke Punk lining up with Brock would be ridiculous, and there was no way he could look like a legit threat against him. Except he did, and it still might be Brocks best WWE match of the last decade, and that makes zero god damned sense. Punk is almost magic in that regard, because he somehow pulls you in to things that if anyone else in that era tried, they’d fail. 
 

Basically, at the end of the day, the ability to pull the viewer into your matches is arguably the most valuable tool a wrestler can have, and Punk was the master of that in a time of large scale indifference. He just clicks in a way hardly anyone does, and connected so strongly in spite of lack of natural physical tools. Give me the guy who does more with less in Punk then a guy who did less with more, which I do think Owen falls into.

[Childs]

You guys have nailed the dynamic here; it's the natural vs. the self-made man. Owen was a beautiful wrestler to watch and had a few cool runs. I'd take the Mania match with Bret over any Punk match. He popped off some random gems against guys like Vader and Shamrock and had the fun tag team with Yokozuna. But I can't say he had a great career. I do think Punk squeezed more production out of his lesser tools, crazy as that seems to say. 

[Matt D]

Yup, it's the old cherry about the ends and the means. The "tools" are just that, tools. They're not an end unto themselves. I think there are a number of voters here and a much higher number of people not here that would, without hesitation, rank someone who had great tools/execution/timing/cardio/athleticism but no idea how to use them to work a crowd over someone who had almost no tools at all but got so much more out of them.

That's an extreme obviously, and the guys in the top half of the list should have both tools and the ability to use them, though even then, exactly what "tools" are and the idea of them being used "well" are both open to opinions.

[kid dracula]

Are there some obvious examples of Owen dogging it in a match?

[Grimmas]

12 minutes ago, kid dracula said:

Are there some obvious examples of Owen dogging it in a match?

Foley's book talks about a house show where he did a hardcore match with bags of popcorn and other such sillyness as the weapons. I don't think he dogged it in the ring, really, just that he would rather be at home with his family. Wrestling was his 9-5 job and he tried, but it wasn't his passion like it was for Punk.

[kid dracula]

Love the idea of someone knocking Owen off their list because he once sold for a bag of popcorn 

[elliott]

Selling for a bag of popcorn would be a positive for Owen's candidacy for me. 

 

[Matt D]

I wish we had more Owen fancans. I was disappointed with the Boy Scouts one we got a month or two ago when he just gave us a cliff notes version of the 92 Rumble tag instead of something goofy. 

[elliott]

How does the Marty Jones match hold up, anyone? Haven't watched that thing in literal decades now. 

[DylanZero]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:35 PM, elliott said:

Selling for a bag of popcorn would be a positive for Owen's candidacy for me. 

 

I would bet if I saw it, I would probably come away thinking that he performed better against that bag of popcorn than Punk did in any match in his career.

 

Also the Marty Jones match was really good, I still think it holds up pretty well but admittedly am a fan of that style. Also do agree with Matt D that the Boy Scouts show tag was a toned down version of the Rumble match vs OE BUT how heartwarming was it to see how hot those kids and families were for Owen? Surely that has to count for something.

[PhilTLL]

3 hours ago, DylanZero said:

I would bet if I saw it, I would probably come away thinking that he performed better against that bag of popcorn than Punk did in any match in his career.

Hell, I would rather watch Owen Hart sell popcorn shots than watch anybody sell the GTS. Or that thing where Punk jogs to the corner and gives his opponent a jumping hug.