elliott Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 Who are some people who had really great runs as babyfaces AND as heels. Is it important to you that your top tier candidates are great at both roles? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 I don't think they have to be both. Playing heel and face is one subset of versatility, but it's a subset. Is it more impressive that they played both heel and face, but only worked matches in one way or is it more impressive they were always a babyface but were able to work a variety of styles and types of matches? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 Pretty sure you have to be able to do both to make my top 10. The competition is just too hard and they can do it blindfolded. I want to see that a wrestler can master multiple situations so I can best understand how good they are. You can probably (probably) make my top 20 by being the very best at one or the other, but without evidence positive or negative in the other role, that’s your possible peak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeg Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 Outside of Misawa and Kobashi, everybody in my top 10 to 15 will have had successful runs as both a babyface and a heel. I think when talking about all time greats (in anything) versatility is important. An ability to be successful in a variety of roles and in a variety of different places is incredibly important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 No. Because it's just too much of a booking thing to begin with, so you can't put the blame on someone to not do and/or never getting good at something they barely ever did for reasons out of their control (are we gonna blame Steamboat or Cena for something they really never got to do ?), plus it's putting to much emphasis on a dynamic that is not always present in pro-wrestling (most pro-wrestling has it, but not all pro-wrestling, the 90's AJ stuff really barely has any of it). Also, is Ricky Morton or Rey Mysterio working heel for a short while really relevant or is it just a miscast (and although I thought Morton was quite good at it, does it really add anything important to his case, as it was nothing but a footnote) ? Too much simply of a role thing to me to be that important. 6 hours ago, Grimmas said: Is it more impressive that they played both heel and face, but only worked matches in one way or is it more impressive they were always a babyface but were able to work a variety of styles and types of matches? That's a trick question for sure ! I'd say the later, but then again I might disagree because having your own style and sticking to it can also be a sign of greatness when you make it work. There's no right answer, really. To sum up, Kiyoshi Tamura worked the same style his entire career, a style that barely has any heel/face dynamics (UWF-I kinda sorta did sometimes) and he's absolutely a top 10 candidate. That definitely frees up the process for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 What about Martel? His heel run wasn't an insignificant length of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 What about it ? Do you mean it was not good therefore it would detract from his case as a whole ? I dunno, where I stand now is that whatever good I see add to your case up to a certain point, there's nothing that really detracts from anything, you're just going up to a certain level (which can be top 10 or lower 90's I guess, depending on what I get). Martel's babyface stuff was awesome so that's the crux on what his case is built on. Then he was still a very good worker during his heel stint (and afterward too as I enjoyed his WCW stuff quite a bit), so that's a bit more positive to add, although nothing too notable either so in the grand scheme of things, it won't weight that much (if at all, really, because at some point you just can't possibly weigh in everything about everyone, it's simply not doable and not even relevant because of all the contextual elements that play into the output anyway, so you have to focus on what is the most relevant). I won't look at Martel being a great heel (if you consider him a great heel, that's just an exemple) as something very important if I don't get what to me is actual great work and to an extent matches (of course taking in account he wasn't working in a super favorable environment either). Like I said, the answer to your question to me is : no. Too much of a role-oriented factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimmas Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 9 hours ago, El-P said: No. Because it's just too much of a booking thing to begin with, so you can't put the blame on someone to not do and/or never getting good at something they barely ever did for reasons out of their control (are we gonna blame Steamboat or Cena for something they really never got to do ?), plus it's putting to much emphasis on a dynamic that is not always present in pro-wrestling (most pro-wrestling has it, but not all pro-wrestling, the 90's AJ stuff really barely has any of it). Also, is Ricky Morton or Rey Mysterio working heel for a short while really relevant or is it just a miscast (and although I thought Morton was quite good at it, does it really add anything important to his case, as it was nothing but a footnote) ? Too much simply of a role thing to me to be that important. That's a trick question for sure ! I'd say the later, but then again I might disagree because having your own style and sticking to it can also be a sign of greatness when you make it work. There's no right answer, really. To sum up, Kiyoshi Tamura worked the same style his entire career, a style that barely has any heel/face dynamics (UWF-I kinda sorta did sometimes) and he's absolutely a top 10 candidate. That definitely frees up the process for me. Seems it's pretty obvious that someone great at two things is greater than someone who is great at only one thing, eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 33 minutes ago, Grimmas said: Seems it's pretty obvious that someone great at two things is greater than someone who is great at only one thing, eh? It depends what those things are and how exactly great are you at it. Tamura is the best example I can give of an absolute specialist (great at one style period, and who only did this one style ever) who is a lock for the top tier, if not the top ten. That being said, it's absolutely possible that when everything is said and done, most if not all the workers from an environment where babyface/heel matters in my top tier will be those who indeed were great both ways. But I really don't know and I'm not looking for that at all. So I'll probably be able to give a better (and strictly descriptive) answer after the fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliott Posted October 5, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 7 hours ago, El-P said: What about it ? Do you mean it was not good therefore it would detract from his case as a whole ? Well you named Rey Jr & Ricky Morton working heel for a short period of time not meaning much. Martel has become a wrestler that many people consider a classic babyface like Ricky & Rey Jr but Martel had a heel run that wasn't a short period of time and isn't well thought of compared to his babyface work. So I was wondering if a lengthier run that wasn't well received would make a difference in your eyes. That's why I asked about Martel. I don't agree with using Tamura as a comparison. He was among the very best at all aspects of shoot style. He's more akin to a Terry Funk who could do everything than a Martel who had this disappointing aspect to his game. Maybe a better comp would be someone like Maeda who was awesome at striking, selling & building drama (all key aspects of shootstyle) but wasn't the best at working the mat. I dunno. Shootstyle is a weird comp with everything because the goals are so different and it rejects many of the tropes we discuss. Anyway, I agree with your broader point that it matters but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does. My top 2 is: 1. Terry Funk 2. Dump Matsumoto Funk is the defining jack of all trades + longevity and Dump is the defining one trick pony + extreme peak. I guess in the end it does matter because I couldn't put Terry lower than 1 and I couldn't put Dump above him. Anyway, I agree that it would be dumb to knock someone like Rey Jr for "not being a great heel" but it feels equally dumb to ignore that Buddy Rose was a great heel one day and then a beloved babyface the next. Each wrestler is different and so is each case. Its what makes this fun and frustrating at the same time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted October 5, 2021 Report Share Posted October 5, 2021 44 minutes ago, elliott said: Martel has become a wrestler that many people consider a classic babyface like Ricky & Rey Jr but Martel had a heel run that wasn't a short period of time and isn't well thought of compared to his babyface work. So I was wondering if a lengthier run that wasn't well received would make a difference in your eyes. That's why I asked about Martel. Understood. I wasn't sure what was your feeling about his heel stuff. 44 minutes ago, elliott said: I don't agree with using Tamura as a comparison. He was among the very best at all aspects of shoot style. He's more akin to a Terry Funk who could do everything than a Martel who had this disappointing aspect to his game. Maybe a better comp would be someone like Maeda who was awesome at striking, selling & building drama (all key aspects of shootstyle) but wasn't the best at working the mat. I dunno. Shootstyle is a weird comp with everything because the goals are so different and it rejects many of the tropes we discuss. Yeah, I used Tamura as kind of an off-topic, extreme example, since other people talked about versatility and there was this discussion in the poll section about shoot-style. Since there really isn't any babyface/heel dynamic usually in shoot-style (although there are other dynamics like underdog/monster, veteran/new young star which absolutely relate to basically every other styles, which is why it's not an alien style that is separated from the rest of the pro-wrestling landscape), he's typically the case for which the question can't be asked. 44 minutes ago, elliott said: Anyway, I agree with your broader point that it matters but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does. My top 2 is: 1. Terry Funk 2. Dump Matsumoto Funk is the defining jack of all trades + longevity and Dump is the defining one trick pony + extreme peak. I guess in the end it does matter because I couldn't put Terry lower than 1 and I couldn't put Dump above him. Well, yeah, can't get two more extreme opposites in every way. I have no idea if I'll end up having someone like Dump in my top tier (or top ten) and if he or she would be higher than guys like Terry Funk. I don't think so, but then again, I do not know ! 44 minutes ago, elliott said: Each wrestler is different and so is each case. Its what makes this fun and frustrating at the same time Yes, pretty much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotJayTabb Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 I thought no-mask heel Rey Jr was an irritating little prick, which is incredible for someone who's such a purely likeable babyface. I see his ability to piss me off as a definite positive for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetsujin Posted October 8, 2021 Report Share Posted October 8, 2021 On 10/5/2021 at 8:28 PM, Grimmas said: Seems it's pretty obvious that someone great at two things is greater than someone who is great at only one thing, eh? The thing is, how do we know some eternal babyface/heel wasn't great at the opposite role? Can we really blame Kobashi for not having the chance to have a heel run? Would have been necessary a heel run, in the first place? Just to give an example. If a wrestler does have great babyface and heel performances/runs, that's awesome and definitely a great argument for him/her. But with the babyface-heel dynamic being so different when comparing the classic pro wrestling countries, i don't think we should look for that kind of versatility for every single contender. I don't think "he never worked heel" matters against Kobashi, or other similar cases. Same for the all time heels. You can still be a very versatile wrestler while remaining a long time babyface/heel. Hell, in fact, Kobashi as a chicken shit heel is the last thing I would've wanted to see from a guy like him. I "don't care" if Savage was an all time great at it, when comparing those two in order to choose who's gonna rank higher, being a heel won't matter that much. Offense, peaks, selling, charisma and crowd control, consistency, how good they protrayed their respective character work, stuff like that will matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Microstatistics Posted December 2, 2021 Report Share Posted December 2, 2021 From the top contenders: El Satanico, Eddie Guerrero, Shawn Michaels, Terry Funk, Bryan Danielson, Tetsuya Naito, AJ Styles, Jushin Liger, Steve Austin, Daisuke Ikeda, Ric Flair, The Destroyer From the middle contenders: Koji Kanemoto, Hiroshi Hase, Sgt. Slaughter, Buddy Rose From the lower-end contenders: Kurt Angle, Yumiko Hotta, El Samurai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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