AEW TV March 9/11 - Post Revolution

[KawadaSmile]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

I'll add something, that is related to Adam Cole too among others, I actually think there's something to be said about a dated idea of masculinity through all of this and the talk of "big guys working like big guys" as opposed to "small guys doing flippy shit".

Care to expound on this, bubba?

[El-P]

21 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Cole has never been very liked by most of us in here so that shouldn't be a shocker at all. Making fun of WWE because they spent 2-3 years pushing him as a star in the C brand, only to let him go and never using him/having a good plan to actually capitalize on those 2-3 years of build doesn't mean most here thought he should be pushed as a champ in AEW.

Well it should !  Because that was exactly the point of making fun of WWE for actually creating a star on NXT and then to deliver it straight to the opposition.

People not getting/enjoying him on a personal level is one thing (just like Wardlow does very little to me as a character and not that much as a worker thus far, but I do get why he's pushed right now and hopes he'll improve), but I see some people saying he doesn't belong in the main events in AEW. Which makes no sense really, considering how over the guy is and how he's been presented since day one. 

[El-P]

40 minutes ago, KawadaSmile said:

Care to expound on this, bubba?

To me the idea that pro-wrestlers have to be big guys with muscles or big frames works together with a pretty much a dated (and toxic) image of masculinity. The big hosses, the meatheads who do "real sports". A "real man" (the infamous "alpha", that the incels love so much) is supposed to look physically imposing (over the other, non-alpha males, and women of course). The "small guys doing flips" to me almost evoques an idea, alongside the critics of some guys being "too smooth" (something that has been said about Chris Daniels for years for instance, a ridiculous criticisms too if you ask me) and exchanges of spots looking like a "choreography", of femininity. Like classical male dancers for instance who forever were not seen as "real men" (often spoken of in homophobic tones), because of how their body looked and how they moved. 

Apart from that are the cases of guys like Darby, because of his daredevil attitude which makes him different and puts him in the spot of a more traditional sense of masculinity, the kind of morbid one of dying (by going to the war) or displaying no fear or regards for his own safety, very much "qualities" that are valued in "real men" (but not so much in women). 

But the more I think about it, I can see this feeling of old-school mentality about how "real men" should look and move, as opposed to guys who are small, who do a lot of jumping around, who are interested in moving super fast and smooth and fly around, be light on their feet and work intricate sequences. Like, yeah, dancers. Expanding on this, of course big men flying around now really defies everything about that notion (and that's a good thing, plus it's great fun to watch too).

Hell, pushing even further, it's interesting how a female worker like Shinobu Kandori has always been praised because she "doesn't work like a joshi wrestler and more like a guy", as opposed to a Manami Toyota who "screams too much", goes too fast, flies around and "doesn't sell" (aka "doesn't think", "has bad psychology"). And is super flexible too...

It's only popped up in my mind in the last few days/weeks, but the more I think about it, the more I think there's something to this. 

That being said, I enjoy big men slapping meat and hosses throwing geeks like darts as much as anyone, of course, because gotta have a little bit of everything in pro-wrestling. (I'm just enjoying Keith Lee, Miro, Lance Archer and Powerhouse Hobbs much more than Wardlow as workers)

[Stiva]

Weird show that felt oddly thrown together in parts, at least with the in-ring parts of it anyway. The World Title match and PAC/Yuta seemed to come from nowhere. As for Sky winning, I’m glad AEW is throwing more curveball title changes into the mix but man, Scorpio Sky feels ice-cold compared to so many other workers. And I’m not sure this is a one and done thing as Wardlow will probably be screwed by MJF next week and, as a whole, they’ve been trying to recapture the momentum that Scorpio had on the first few Dynamites for a good two years now. Baker as champ is beyond stale now too, it’s time for Thunder Rosa, Mercedes, Shida and Deeb to carry shit for a while. Still, we have William Regal leading Mox and Bryan, all is well.

I’m strangely excited for the Hardys run tbh. FTR, Bucks, Private Party and Darby/Sting all feel like they could be good match-ups.

[KawadaSmile]

I see. Must say, a study about non-standard depictions of masculinity in wrestling interest me.

However, while I like big men busting out stuff like moonsault or springboard sentons, I feel that at the same time, if you have them doing it more frequently, smaller dudes lose their luster a bit, unless it's top level talent like Vikingo giving Newton the middle finger

For instance, I am positive Bron Breakker or peak Scott Steiner could bust a 450 splash easily. Should they do that often? If I can see a dude his frame bust out that move, a smaller dude doing the same thing isn't the same. Certain spots should be more contextual, I feel.

It's like when you see a smaller dude lifting bigger guys - it's awesome, but should it happen every other match? 

 

Either way, I agree with a lot, if not all of what you wrote.

[strobogo]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

To me the idea that pro-wrestlers have to be big guys with muscles or big frames works together with a pretty much a dated (and toxic) image of masculinity. The big hosses, the meatheads who do "real sports". A "real man" (the infamous "alpha", that the incels love so much) is supposed to look physically imposing (over the other, non-alpha males, and women of course). The "small guys doing flips" to me almost evoques an idea, alongside the critics of some guys being "too smooth" (something that has been said about Chris Daniels for years for instance, a ridiculous criticisms too if you ask me) and exchanges of spots looking like a "choreography", of femininity. Like classical male dancers for instance who forever were not seen as "real men" (often spoken of in homophobic tones), because of how their body looked and how they moved. 

Apart from that are the cases of guys like Darby, because of his daredevil attitude which makes him different and puts him in the spot of a more traditional sense of masculinity, the kind of morbid one of dying (by going to the war) or displaying no fear or regards for his own safety, very much "qualities" that are valued in "real men" (but not so much in women). 

But the more I think about it, I can see this feeling of old-school mentality about how "real men" should look and move, as opposed to guys who are small, who do a lot of jumping around, who are interested in moving super fast and smooth and fly around, be light on their feet and work intricate sequences. Like, yeah, dancers. Expanding on this, of course big men flying around now really defies everything about that notion (and that's a good thing, plus it's great fun to watch too).

Hell, pushing even further, it's interesting how a female worker like Shinobu Kandori has always been praised because she "doesn't work like a joshi wrestler and more like a guy", as opposed to a Manami Toyota who "screams too much", goes too fast, flies around and "doesn't sell" (aka "doesn't think", "has bad psychology"). And is super flexible too...

It's only popped up in my mind in the last few days/weeks, but the more I think about it, the more I think there's something to this. 

That being said, I enjoy big men slapping meat and hosses throwing geeks like darts as much as anyone, of course, because gotta have a little bit of everything in pro-wrestling. (I'm just enjoying Keith Lee, Miro, Lance Archer and Powerhouse Hobbs much more than Wardlow as workers)

I think you're looking way, way too deep into this. The issue people have with Adam Cole is that his size and psychology are at odds with each other. It just plain looks silly when he's going toe to toe with guys much bigger than him. It's not that he isn't muscular enough or manly enough, it's that his psychology sucks. It's very weird for an undersized heel to wrestle like he does and it throws a lot of people off.

[El-P]

39 minutes ago, strobogo said:

I think you're looking way, way too deep into this. 

I don't think I am and I'm not specifically talking about Adam Cole, I just referred to him because of his size, but I'm having a reflexion about this on a much broader level.

39 minutes ago, strobogo said:

 it's that his psychology sucks. It's very weird for an undersized heel to wrestle like he does and it throws a lot of people off.

Considering how over he is and has been *everywhere* he went, I beg to differ. I dunno who are those "lots of people", but they weren't in ROH's audience. Nor NXT's audience. Nor AEW's audience either apparently.

The idea that being big = being tough absolutely goes with what I'm talking about though, it isn't rooted in reality but in a dated representation. As a sumo fan, I've watched small wrestler throw much bigger guys around for ever. And we know small-ass Joey Styles has KOed big bad hoss looking JBL IRL too. 

Plus, as always, it's not a matter of being "realistic", it's a matter of a move being "accepted" by an audience. If the audience mostly accept the fact Adam Cole (or any other smaller guy) can get a Canadian Destroyer on a much bigger guy (or that Matt Jackson can do double suplexes), it just works and that's it. If they don't accept it, then yes, there's an issue. But the fact is Cole has gotten over big everywhere thus far, so he must do something right.

[sek69]

3 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

For instance, I am positive Bron Breakker or peak Scott Steiner could bust a 450 splash easily. Should they do that often? If I can see a dude his frame bust out that move, a smaller dude doing the same thing isn't the same. Certain spots should be more contextual, I feel.

I distinctly remember when Scott first busted out the Frankensteiner and everyone lost their goddamn minds that a dude his size was effortlessly pulled out a move like that. 

 

Also the best part of Regal's promo was Bryan in the battle of his life trying not to lose it when Regal said he was the wrestler he should have become. 

[ragemaster]

(2) Scott Steiner innovated the 450 Splash circa 1987 - YouTube

[El-P]

Damn. He had about a 33% chance of hitting it clean.

[strobogo]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

I don't think I am and I'm not specifically talking about Adam Cole, I just referred to him because of his size, but I'm having a reflexion about this on a much broader level.

Considering how over he is and has been *everywhere* he went, I beg to differ. I dunno who are those "lots of people", but they weren't in ROH's audience. Nor NXT's audience. Nor AEW's audience either apparently.

The idea that being big = being tough absolutely goes with what I'm talking about though, it isn't rooted in reality but in a dated representation. As a sumo fan, I've watched small wrestler throw much bigger guys around for ever. And we know small-ass Joey Styles has KOed big bad hoss looking JBL IRL too. 

Plus, as always, it's not a matter of being "realistic", it's a matter of a move being "accepted" by an audience. If the audience mostly accept the fact Adam Cole (or any other smaller guy) can get a Canadian Destroyer on a much bigger guy (or that Matt Jackson can do double suplexes), it just works and that's it. If they don't accept it, then yes, there's an issue. But the fact is Cole has gotten over big everywhere thus far, so he must do something right.

It's not about big = being tough. It's just visually Adam Cole controlling Keith Lee with side headlocks or doing hockey fights with Luchasaurus looks silly.

[sek69]

Yeah it's one thing to believe Rey can chop down a giant by darting around him like a hummingbird until they pass out, It's a whole dfferent story seeing Adam Cole muscling down Keith Lee in a side headlock that isn't setting up the Jerry Lawler/Andy Kaufman spot.

[El-P]

A simple legit headlock can control any big-ass mofo IRL. So really, no, I don't see the issue, as long as it doesn't hurt the flow of a match nor the perception of Adam Cole (or anyone else, I might add, as I really am not making this about Adam Cole in particular, although he's at the center of the debate here which strikes me as odd when infact, his lack of size is basically the reason why WWE did not see him as a star, which was stupid on their part) by the audience (and by that I mean, the audience not accepting said spot). 

(disclaimer : you bring up always the same exemple of Cole and Lee and I have not seen that match, so there, maybe this wasn't done in a way that actually worked, I dunno)

[Stiva]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

I distinctly remember when Scott first busted out the Frankensteiner and everyone lost their goddamn minds that a dude his size was effortlessly pulled out a move like that. 

 

Also the best part of Regal's promo was Bryan in the battle of his life trying not to lose it when Regal said he was the wrestler he should have become. 

I loved how Regal spent a good few minutes praising Bryan and spent about 15 seconds on Moxley. We can all see where this is going 

[sek69]

Apparently Regal went over his time on that promo and as a consummate pro felt bad about it. On one hand I get it, but on the other Regal should have been allowed to talk however the fuck long he wants and if your match time got cut then too bad. 

[Jmare007]

Yeah, seems he got too emotional once in the ring and in front of Schiavone and he never really recovered. I loved how real it felt though, don't think anyone would complain. It's not like it took time away from a match or segment that needed 2-3 minutes.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Yeah, seems he got too emotional once in the ring and in front of Schiavone and he never really recovered.

Probably my favorite part of this week's show, honestly. The entire promo was awesome, but it's always special when actual reality invades the scene. Who ever thought you'd see Regal and Schiavone together in a pro-wrestling ring again ?

[strobogo]

13 minutes ago, El-P said:

A simple legit headlock can control any big-ass mofo IRL. So really, no, I don't see the issue, as long as it doesn't hurt the flow of a match nor the perception of Adam Cole (or anyone else, I might add, as I really am not making this about Adam Cole in particular, although he's at the center of the debate here which strikes me as odd when infact, his lack of size is basically the reason why WWE did not see him as a star, which was stupid on their part) by the audience (and by that I mean, the audience not accepting said spot). 

(disclaimer : you bring up always the same exemple of Cole and Lee and I have not seen that match, so there, maybe this wasn't done in a way that actually worked, I dunno)

It's not that he's not a star. He does come off like a star and has everywhere he's been. The people that don't "get" Adam Cole I think it primarily comes down to he works that "my spot, your spot" back and forth style even against guys much, much bigger than him and it looks silly.

[El-P]

9 minutes ago, strobogo said:

The people that don't "get" Adam Cole I think it primarily comes down to he works that "my spot, your spot" back and forth style even against guys much, much bigger than him and it looks silly.

Understood. Hey, maybe I'll eventually see him against a really big guy (and considering how small he is, the size difference can get pretty notable quickly) and won't like it. Thus far, I'm more than fine with his work, which has been nothing but great to me.

[KawadaSmile]

28 minutes ago, El-P said:

(disclaimer : you bring up always the same exemple of Cole and Lee and I have not seen that match, so there, maybe this wasn't done in a way that actually worked, I dunno)

It was not worked in a way that made sense. Think about a common, loose headlock. Those you have in basically any drop down, leapfrog sequence. That's what he was using to have control over Keith Lee. Basically the first portion of the match, besides a brief moment, is all Cole beating the shit out of Lee with some questionable looking strikes.

Their match is actually decent besides the beginning segment and some minor stuff like Cole hitting the Panama Sunrise as he would do against any other opponent. On the other hand, I'd say the clipped version (you can find it on DailyMotion - with Italian commentary!) is a MASSIVE improvement over the full match, as it cuts straight to the chase and makes it feel like a 8 minute sprint and much more cohesive.

 

[strobogo]

The Panama Sunrise is actually what bothers me the most. Even by wrestling logic, the physics of that make no sense. It's especially dumb when he does it on the floor/stage/ramp where there's not even semblance of spring from the ring. Not only does it look stupid, but there are a dozen dudes doing Canadian Destroyer variations on AEW shows.

[Stiva]

1 hour ago, sek69 said:

Apparently Regal went over his time on that promo and as a consummate pro felt bad about it. On one hand I get it, but on the other Regal should have been allowed to talk however the fuck long he wants and if your match time got cut then too bad. 

Ah man, I guess there’s a lesson in there to not overanalyse the old pro wrestling. If that’s the case, long may the Moxley/Bryan/Regal violent triangle continue 

[Johnny Sorrow]

Two things,

1. The whole Punk ROH entrance thing is stupid on all sides of the " debate."  I could go on for paragraphs. 
2. Adam Cole is over because he exudes charisma, can talk his ass off, and comes off as a star. He jumps off the screen in an ensemble of mostly mediocre actors, in every promotion I've seen him in. He's really good.

[NintendoLogic]

According to the latest Observer, Regal's health issues are far worse than have been let on. He discussed them in an interview he recorded for Talk is Jericho that gets released next week.

[Jmare007]

3 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

According to the latest Observer, Regal's health issues are far worse than have been let on. He discussed them in an interview he recorded for Talk is Jericho that gets released next week.

Maybe Jericho told Dave so he could get more promotion for his podcast