El-P Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 42 minutes ago, sek69 said: Yeah it's great someone can look back and past deeds and say "wow I certainly fucked up there, I'm sorry", just doing that doesn't mean they are automatically entitled to the same opportunities as before. It's not like being "entitled to opportunities" has anything to do with morals or merits anyway. It's basically luck and social spot. Plenty of truly awful people who do awful things are getting great opportunities every day. But the idea that no one can change and you are for life reduced to one thing you *said*, no matter how bad it is, years ago, just doesn't seem the sign of a very healthy society. Who hasn't said some really stupid, including hateful, shit in their lives ? Who hasn't done any bad stuff ? Let's be fucking real now. People who say they never have are liars, plain and simple. People evolve. Well, some don't, but hopefully people can evolve. If not, there's no hope whatsoever. It could also be a learning story to tell to those who still have hateful beliefs. Anyways. PWO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Thread Killer Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 49 minutes ago, sek69 said: Also, and this might not be a popular take here, apologizing isn't a magic wand that wipes away your past behavior. Yeah it's great someone can look back and past deeds and say "wow I certainly fucked up there, I'm sorry", just doing that doesn't mean they are automatically entitled to the same opportunities as before. Words/behaviors have consequences, and an apology doesn't mean someone can't still say "yeah I'm gonna pass on having someone with that in their history work for me". Is it fair? Maybe not, but you can't un-ring the bell with an apology. I get that, but much like with pretty much everything else in life, there are the proverbial "shades of grey" (tm Vince McMahon.) To me, a lot of these issues need to be looked at on a case by case basis, not just with the attitude of "you said something stupid 10 years ago, so no more work for you, that policy applies to everybody with no exceptions." Firstly (as I mentioned earlier) the major component is "does the person who said or did the fucked up thing still think that way." People love to complain about The Ultimate Warrior (those people clearly have NO concept of the power of Destrucity, but I digress.) He said a lot of stuff which was viewed as offensive, hurtful, controversial, etc. To the best of my knowledge, Warrior never apologized for anything he said, nor do I think he even thought what he said was particularly wrong. So in that case, I totally get people (except WWE apparently) refusing to give the guy a pass. But as I said, in the case of Jay Briscoe, not only did he apologize repeatedly for what he said...there is fairly compelling evidence to suggest he honestly doesn't feel that way anymore. This is where I have an issue with people who want to hold him to account still, after all this time. People can change. People can grow. Allow me to share with you an example from my own life. When I first began my career in Social Worker back in 1989, we were having a noticeable and concerning surge of racially motivated physical assaults in the Toronto Area, perpetrated by Neo Nazi Skinheads. They would surround somebody (usually a minority) on the subway and do something they called a "swarming" where a group they would push the person to the ground and proceed to kick and stomp, the ever-loving shit out of the victim. There was a huge public outcry, and police quite rightly began rounding up all the Nazi skinheads and throwing the book at them. Eventually, a number of these lovely young citizens ended up serving time as guests of the state, and ended up in my professional neck of the woods. Do you know who ended up being the most effective counsellor I ever saw working with Neo Nazi skinheads? A buddy of mine who was... A reformed Neo Nazi skinhead. Doug had been a member of some sort of "White Power" organization and was also a cocaine dealer. He was addicted to meth (although back in my day, we called it "crank" for some reason.) Doug got caught dealing, got sent away to prison and while there he underwent drug treatment and ended up going through a total personality transplant. He renounced his racist views, and once he got out of jail he had all of his (plentiful) Nazi tattoos either burned off or blacked out...and he dedicated his life to getting kids out of that lifestyle. Doug worked tirelessly to try and teach kids who had fallen sway to those insipid and hateful ideologies to reconsider their behaviour, find out the real reasons they were acting like this...and most importantly to face the impact their behaviour was having on their victims. I personally witnessed this guy save a number of kids from a life that was destined to end up hurting both themselves, and a lot of other innocent people, and put them on the right path. He was a hundred times more effective at helping get kids out of White Nationalism than guys like myself were at the time. I was a 20 year old kid straight out of college who (although well meaning) didn't really know my ass from my elbow. Doug understood exactly what those kids were going through, he knew all the language and how they got sucked into that life...and most importantly, how to get them out and put a stop to the cycle of hate. I can't help but wonder...if Social Media had existed back then, if Doug would have even been allowed to atone for his behaviour and try to make up for the harm he had done? I doubt it. I am guessing it would have been a case of: "Hey, 10 years ago you said Hitler was great and death to the Jews." Which he did say. But then he changed. Not only did he not feel that way anymore, but he was wracked with remorse and that guilt motivated him to achieve great things in the name of undoing the damage he had done to society. If we stop allowing people to apologize for wrongs they have committed and stop letting them atone for their behaviour...where will that leave us? Now granted, people like Hulk Hogan muddy those waters, when they are clearly only sorry they got caught saying something terrible and don't actually regret it. And @sek69 is right...private companies have every right to refuse employment to anybody for any reason. That is one of the many great things about the free enterprise system that makes capitalism so much better than any other system, especially socialism...right @El-P? I just think we should judge each case individually, and not apply the same brush to everybody. We've all said and done stupid shit, to varying degrees. I don't think a person's chance to earn a living should be permanently altered based on things which were said a long time ago, especially if seemingly legitimate remorse has been shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delacroix Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 24 minutes ago, El-P said: People evolve. Well, some don't, but hopefully people can evolve. If not, there's no hope whatsoever. It could also be a learning story to tell to those who still have hateful beliefs. Anyways. PWO. Not intending to argue against the idea that people can and should be given the opportunity to evolve, but I don’t know that this is the key issue here. What I mean is, it will be a “learning story” one way or the other, and I feel like we’ve learned the lesson that people with privilege deserve second chances more than enough. I honestly don’t think that story is quite as inspirational to some as it might be to others. Another story that could be told is that saying vile things that target the vulnerable carries lasting consequences. That probably isn’t as comforting to many of us, but it’s probably a story that we need to hear more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 45 minutes ago, El-P said: Plenty of truly awful people who do awful things are getting great opportunities every day. This is what it comes down to. Those people, at least in wrestling, are proven draws or people who are believed can be draws. The Briscoes don't and never have fallen into that category. Let's face facts: ROH went out of business with them in prominent positions. With a Turner higher-up making a stink, Tony Khan probably (rightfully) thinks they aren't worth the headache - and they probably aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 1 minute ago, C.S. said: The Briscoes don't and never have fallen into that category. Let's face facts: ROH went out of business with them in prominent positions. The ROH show just this last weekend went from 200-ish tickets sold to 2500 and got one of the biggest buyrates ever for a ROH PPV solely due to their match with FTR, so it's not the best time for that take. No one was drawing in ROH toward the end due to lackluster booking and being owned by a billon dollar corporation who had to be dragged kicking and screaming into paying for a decent lighting rig. No one was going to able to draw with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 I'd argue what drew was the novelty of curiosity factor of this being ROH's first show after the AEW buyout, but we'll never know for sure, so there's no point debating it. Plus, interesting theory on Reddit: I think we're seeing the Briscoes tonight - not because of this but just because it makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Christian wins or I riot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Crowd is HOT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El-P Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 hour ago, delacroix said: What I mean is, it will be a “learning story” one way or the other, and I feel like we’ve learned the lesson that people with privilege deserve second chances more than enough. I honestly don’t think that story is quite as inspirational to some as it might be to others. Another story that could be told is that saying vile things that target the vulnerable carries lasting consequences. Well, I won't argue against that, especially the bolded part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 One of Cole's better matches in the promotion imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Yawn. I'd rather Hangman vs. Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, MoS said: One of Cole's better matches in the promotion imo Christian carried the young boy admirably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 THANK YOU for letting Hangman finally cut a badass babyface promo where he is the one who interrupts the heel and talks trash! Thank you! I've been asking for this for weeks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Was it just me or was that a weak, bad rap by Caster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 The pop for the Muscle Buster, got damn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 That was perfect. Joe's presence is awesome. Kill Lethal next, sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 How does attacking security guards just trying to do their job make Wardlow a babyface? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 The crowd is going to EXPLODE when Wardlow finally gets his hands on MJF. They are molten for this angle in every arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 minute ago, C.S. said: How does attacking security guards just trying to do their job make Wardlow a babyface? Because they are defacto working for the heel by keeping him away from MJF? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 minute ago, C.S. said: How does attacking security guards just trying to do their job make Wardlow a babyface? Because it's wrestling and people like to see ass-kickers who beat up people getting in their way? Did you also think Steve Austin was a heel when he would beat up security to get to Vince McMahon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.S. Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 1 minute ago, sek69 said: Because they are defacto working for the heel by keeping him away from MJF? Are they working for MJF or AEW? Just now, MoS said: Because it's wrestling and people like to see ass-kickers who beat up people getting in their way? Did you also think Steve Austin was a heel when he would beat up security to get to Vince McMahon? Attitude Era was a different time, different culture. We're in 2022 now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Just now, C.S. said: Are they working for MJF or AEW? The fans want to see MJF get his ass beat by Wardlow. The security geeks are preventing that so they are unintentially doing MJF's bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 minutes ago, C.S. said: Are they working for MJF or AEW? Attitude Era was a different time, different culture. We're in 2022 now. Thankfully, most people are not boring and still like ass-kickers who beat up people stopping them from fighting their enemies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoS Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Santana is looking JACKED Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strummer Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 JYD and Butch Reed reference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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