Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[El-P]

6 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

If you look at everything from the beginning, there's no way you can objectively say the Elite don't share some of the blame for what went down. They are the ones that decided it was a good idea to get a group of people together and go confront Punk in the middle of the night.

 You make it sound like they mobbed the guy in the street of something. They went to his locker room after he publicly buried their company, okay. They probably should not have done that, considering how things turned out, sure. Doesn't change one bit of what Punk already had done that was damaging to the company.

6 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

No source reported it because no one is actually really talking to Punk and getting his side. I'd be surprised if Punk has spoken to any dirtsheet reporter personally. No one has spoken to Ace Steel's wife. I don't know if Ace Steel has spoken to anyone. The only people talking are the Elite and people on their side. 

It has been established from the beginning that pretty much what came out was Punk's side and that the Elite actually never said anything. Repeating the opposite over and over again won't make it true.

6 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I'm hoping a real journalist will tackle this at some point. I'd like to see an actual report instead of someone just telling me what's in it. I'd like to hear from people that were actually involved instead of someone just telling me what a 'source' said. 

That's the job of a journalist. Getting infos from sources.

[Flyin' Brian]

1 minute ago, El-P said:

 You make it sound like they mobbed the guy in the street of something. They went to his locker room after he publicly buried their company, okay. 

It has been established from the beginning that pretty much what came out was Punk's side. Repeating the opposide won't make it true.

That's the job of a journalist. Getting infos from sources.

Except for one of the people that was actually in the room for some reason.

[Flyin' Brian]

8 minutes ago, El-P said:

 You make it sound like they mobbed the guy in the street of something. They went to his locker room after he publicly buried their company, okay. 

It has been established from the beginning that pretty much what came out was Punk's side. Repeating the opposide won't make it true.

That's the job of a journalist. Getting infos from sources.

Also, you'll forgive me for not trusting people reporting on this that have personal relationships with the Elite and benefit from those relationships.

[sek69]

The Elite bringing Megha with them would indicate they weren't itching for a fight, since she's the exact last person you'd want to witness shit going down. 

Just using Occam's Razor would suggest they went with the head of HR to find out why he took a giant shit on the company and them personally right after a PPV where he won the world title in his hometown. As Dave reminded me the other day, Punk was actually in a fairly good mood during the whole press conference despite what he was saying, and actually said if anyone had a problem to come talk to him. 

Maybe Punk was taken off guard by someone actually taking him up on the offer, who knows. 

[Big Pete]

11 minutes ago, sek69 said:

As Dave reminded me the other day, Punk was actually in a fairly good mood during the whole press conference despite what he was saying, and actually said if anyone had a problem to come talk to him. 

I have no idea how anyone could watch that press conference and think Punk was in a good mood. The guy was ranting and raving cussing out his co-workers and people in the room for spreading lies. Alvarez tries to make out that since Punk decided to end things on a good note by saying 'I'm actually a good guy' that he was approachable but that was like two minutes after he went after Alvarez' rant and minute after Punk reminded these journalists to get their facts straight.

[Flyin' Brian]

24 minutes ago, sek69 said:

The Elite bringing Megha with them would indicate they weren't itching for a fight, since she's the exact last person you'd want to witness shit going down. 

Just using Occam's Razor would suggest they went with the head of HR to find out why he took a giant shit on the company and them personally right after a PPV where he won the world title in his hometown. As Dave reminded me the other day, Punk was actually in a fairly good mood during the whole press conference despite what he was saying, and actually said if anyone had a problem to come talk to him. 

Maybe Punk was taken off guard by someone actually taking him up on the offer, who knows. 

I don’t see HR in her title at all. She’s legal. And apparently she thought them going to confront Punk right then was a good idea too. 

[El-P]

Even if he wasn't in a good mood. Though shit. What did he expect after publicly burying the promotion ? A hug and a cookie ? Sure, confronting him there wasn't the best idea, but again, people are grasping at straws for excuses. 

[Big Pete]

42 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

4. Why was Megha asked to come with the Eiite to the locker room and confront Punk?

At 1:00am with Nakazawa and Cutler. How could you possibly think you were going to resolve the situation at that time without consulting the owner? Bottom line, that's horrible management and so far everything Punk has said in that press conference has been proven right. The journalists still can't get their facts straight and are playing to their sides, the Bucks managed the situation terribly and Cabana ultimately got a gig because of Punk.

 

47 minutes ago, El-P said:

Because no source ever reported it at first despite only hearing the story that came from Punk's side.

There always seemed to be more to the story than 'Omega took pity on Punk's dog and Punk in a moment of clarity allowed Omega to graciously carry the dog out of harm's way before they continued to fight'.

Now I think Punk 100% exagerated the story, but I could see the dog barking it's head off at the door and when they barged in they accidentally hit the dog. I've done it to my own dogs and I haven't been buried by an egomaniac for millions around the world to see.

[sek69]

2 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

At 1:00am with Nakazawa and Cutler. How could you possibly think you were going to resolve the situation at that time without consulting the owner?

Said owner was in the middle of a press conference so they got the person who's widely seen as Tony's right hand person. I can see the line of thinking that they wanted to bring the person highest up the food chain who wasn't busy at the moment. 

[sek69]

Also it's pretty funny how the narrative became "journalists are spinning for the Elite" when Dave has been very clear that while he's asked them multiple times the only thing he's got from them was that they couldn't comment. If anything his initial reporting came from the Punk side, what with claims the Bucks kicked the door down or whatnot.

I think @Big Pete's take is probably right that poor Larry probably got hit with the door as dogs are wont to do, and I could see known animal lover Omega being concerned about that. 

[El-P]

19 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

There always seemed to be more to the story than 'Omega took pity on Punk's dog and Punk in a moment of clarity allowed Omega to graciously carry the dog out of harm's way before they continued to fight'.

Now I think Punk 100% exagerated the story, but I could see the dog barking it's head off at the door and when they barged in they accidentally hit the dog.

May indeed have happened. May not have happened also.

There's also that one thing though : a pet dog has nothing to do at your workplace. So there.

10 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Also it's pretty funny how the narrative became "journalists are spinning for the Elite" when Dave has been very clear that while he's asked them multiple times the only thing he's got from them was that they couldn't comment.

Yeah but everything he says is a lie because he's in bed with the Elite and the proof is he gave Omega seven stars at the Tokyo Dome despite him being a geek who can't work and only does movez. I'm way caricaturing but deep down inside, I do think a part of the pissed off people have that exact mentality (that's the audience of Cornette/Bischoff/Prichard's podcasts also). That's ignoring no other version of the story was given by any other reporters, but whatever, it doesn't matter, all that matters is "Dave is just defending TK and the Elite". From this perspective, whatever comes from his side is null and void anyway, which is a super comfortable stance to take.

[Flyin' Brian]

9 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Also it's pretty funny how the narrative became "journalists are spinning for the Elite" when Dave has been very clear that while he's asked them multiple times the only thing he's got from them was that they couldn't comment. If anything his initial reporting came from the Punk side, what with claims the Bucks kicked the door down or whatnot.

I think @Big Pete's take is probably right that poor Larry probably got hit with the door as dogs are wont to do, and I could see known animal lover Omega being concerned about that. 

Sure, Dave is going to admit it if the Elite is sending him info. Like if someone guessed the right name he would admit it. Really?

[Flyin' Brian]

I’m being accused of hating the Elite but there sure is some pot and kettle stuff going on with people that have an irrational hatred of Punk. 

[Big Pete]

8 minutes ago, sek69 said:

Said owner was in the middle of a press conference so they got the person who's widely seen as Tony's right hand person. I can see the line of thinking that they wanted to bring the person highest up the food chain who wasn't busy at the moment. 

Which is why it should have waited until the next day. I doubt TK would have wanted there to be a confrontation and would have preferred it to be more amicable and reminded both parties what was at stake. I seriously question Megha's leadership if she thought that it was OK to confront Punk at that time with parties like Cutler and Nakazawa who didn't need to be present.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I’m being accused of hating the Elite but there sure is some pot and kettle stuff going on with people that have an irrational hatred of Punk. 

No one is accusing you personally of anything. But you're just not making sense.

As far as irrational hatred of Punk, well, too bad (but maybe you weren't talking about me, I dunno), you'll see me say time and time again how much I was enjoying Punk's stint in AEW and how much of a fan of him I was in this very thread, including on stuff that have nothing to do with pro-wrestling. So, nope, not me. If I had my way, I would have all four of them in AEW again and work an awesome Omega vs Punk main event eventually.

[El-P]

4 minutes ago, Big Pete said:

Which is why it should have waited until the next day. I doubt TK would have wanted there to be a confrontation and would have preferred it to be more amicable and reminded both parties what was at stake. 

The one thing that has to be said, is that TK should have stopped Punk's rant. No idea how Punk would have reacted, but TK needed to stop him before he went too far and reframe the interview pretty quickly. If Punk left the room, then he would have left the room pissed, but this was a debacle of epic proportion. I hope it's a lesson learned.

[Flyin' Brian]

13 minutes ago, El-P said:

No one is accusing you personally of anything. But you're just not making sense.

As far as irrational hatred of Punk, well, too bad (but maybe you weren't talking about me, I dunno), you'll see me say time and time again how much I was enjoying Punk's stint in AEW and how much of a fan of him I was in this very thread, including on stuff that have nothing to do with pro-wrestling. So, nope, not me. If I had my way, I would have all four of them in AEW again and work an awesome Omega vs Punk main event eventually.

Same here. I don’t want anyone to lose their job and never have. I don’t have any respect for Page or Jericho right now, but I honestly don’t have a problem at the moment with Omega or the Bucks. Not personally anyway. Just hate the narrative that this is all Punk’s fault and the whole locker room is against him now and once he’s gone everything will be sunshine and roses. He’s being railroaded and it pisses me off. I just don’t think people are being honest. 

[Flyin' Brian]

6 minutes ago, El-P said:

The one thing that has to be said, is that TK should have stopped Punk's rant. No idea how Punk would have reacted, but TK needed to stop him before he went too far and reframe the interview pretty quickly. If Punk left the room, then he would have left the room pissed, but this was a debacle of epic proportion. I hope it's a lesson learned.

100%. Even before that, something should have been done to clear up the Cabana stuff. After Page’s promo on Punk or Punk’s promo on Page someone should have sat everyone involved down and talked it out. And I think a big part of why Punk was pissed was that no one did. But ultimately that falls on Tony Khan. 

[El-P]

Matt. Matt. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING HELPING NOW 

(allow me to underline how fair play I am by posting this myself and making fun of it, not that it changes anything in the grand scheme of things)

I wonder if this is the Montreal of the 20's and in 20 years people will still argue about it.

[Matt D]

2 minutes ago, El-P said:

I wonder if this is the Montreal of the 20's and in 20 years people will still argue about it.

Especially after Goldberg kicks Punk in the head in Saudi Arabia in 2023.

[El-P]

Just now, Matt D said:

Especially after Goldberg kicks Punk in the head in Saudi Arabia in 2023.

Please don't.

Hell, I was actually thinking about that one today, how if Punk returns to WWE, would he take part in those Saudi shameless shows ? I would hope not, I would hope he would be the one to say "nope".

[Flyin' Brian]

29 minutes ago, El-P said:

Matt. Matt. YOU'RE NOT FUCKING HELPING NOW 

(allow me to underline how fair play I am by posting this myself and making fun of it, not that it changes anything in the grand scheme of things)

I wonder if this is the Montreal of the 20's and in 20 years people will still argue about it.

Lol. Thank you. And I guess thank Matt too. 

[KawadaSmile]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

I dunno. He's 64 years old. If I'm a young 23 years old guy and I want advice, I will sure get them from veterans like Omega or the Bucks first (because indeed, they are veterans workers, just as Arn was a veteran during the Nitro years). Guys who are old by my own standards. Not everybody is watching stuff from 20 years before they were born. It's striking to me how pro-wrestling is such a conservative environment, including in the fanbase, with an reverence to the past that goes beyond reason. People are still talking about stuff from 35 years ago like it was yesterday. Well, it's not yesterday, 35 years ago is ancient. Sure, Arn was an awesome worker 40 to 30 years ago, and sure there is stuff to learn from this. But not getting why guys in their early 20's would rather look up to guys in the mid-30's (which, by their standards, are already fairly old and from the former generation) really speaks of this, sorry to have to say it, old man mentality that is rampant in pro-wrestling fandom.Well, of course you look at WWE median TV audience and this explains that. Still, it doesn't shock me that very young guys would not even care about a 64 year old in the locker room, as sad as it seems to us, hardcore geeky, tape collecting (that's for the age thing) gatekeepers. Plus, let's be real, pro-wrestling should be moving forward, as it always did. And people moving it forward are always the younger guys changing it from within and making it evolve, to the chagrin of the older generations, workers and fans alike. 

Yes, but at the same time Arn isn't just limited to being a retired professional wrestler. He was also a road agent, was a terrific talker, and can lay out a match like no one else's business. I get your point that one could and should look up to more contemporary peers who are slightly older, and not from different generations altogether, but with Arn I feel like a missed opportunity.

Like, it's similar to what happens in other sports - you can have a great coach in the 90s or 00s, but even if they are massively successful, it doesn't mean that it will translate to the 10s or 20s. Some, however, are great in just about any era. In that regard, I see Arn similar to someone like Gregg Popovich, who has been coaching the San Antonio Spurs since 1996. He has coached some of the greatest talents in basketball history since the 90s, and despite the team not having the same caliber of generational talent, he ALWAYS extracts the most out of every single athlete he's coaching. He's old, but knows how to adapt and stay in touch with what's going on. 

[KawadaSmile]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

The one thing that has to be said, is that TK should have stopped Punk's rant. No idea how Punk would have reacted, but TK needed to stop him before he went too far and reframe the interview pretty quickly. If Punk left the room, then he would have left the room pissed, but this was a debacle of epic proportion. I hope it's a lesson learned.

On that note, TK is either widly clueless about what the fuck is going on his locker room, or he just doesn't care. Not sure which is worse, because if WE saw shit unfold way before All Out, it's obvious he was seeing it too.

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, El-P said:

Even if he wasn't in a good mood. Though shit. What did he expect after publicly burying the promotion ? A hug and a cookie ? Sure, confronting him there wasn't the best idea, but again, people are grasping at straws for excuses. 

I’m sorry, but I think anybody with an ounce of sense about social norms within both combat sports (even worked ones) and masculinity writ large would understand that barging into his dressing room uninvited in that context, after that scrum and the obvious vibe he was giving off, would beggar a fight. You really have to be hypercolonized with HR-think to argue otherwise. It’s not “grasping at straws”, it’s looking at the situation with any perspective other than a middle school principal enforcing a zero tolerance policy.