Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[The Man in Blak]

If that’s truly the case, then TK should have never signed Punk to begin with — or he should have let Colt go back with the first round of AEW contract expirations to open the door — and apparently he needs to hire someone that is aware of dynamics between human beings in a workplace. Maybe Johnny Ace can help, I hear he’s available.

[Champagne]

1 hour ago, El-P said:

Jarrett is a good catch. Talk about a smart guy who can teach the youngsters some old-school tricks all the while having the ability to actually listen and learn from them too...

It doesn't matter how many veterans you have in the locker room if the younger guys refuse to take advantage of this experience. Some people have and will brush aside Adam Page's comments about not needing advice as an isolated thing, but Billy Gunn was on Road Dogg's podcast this week and says it's a company-wide problem. “We have a bunch of coaches that are best in the business. But nobody uses it."

[El-P]

Billy Gunn is gonna teach what ? How to get over thanks to someone else's catchphrase every 22 years ?

And I'm sure NO ONE in that locker room is listening to whatever Brian Danielson has to say. 

Anyway, if you want to learn psychology today, the best pro-wrestlers at storytelling in the world are about 30 years old anyway. If I'm Jungle Boy (for instance), I'm watching those guys rather than sitting under the learning tree of Billy Gunn, no offense Daddy Ass.

[Flyin' Brian]

12 hours ago, Ricky Jackson said:

Maybe time for an avatar update FB

Yeah, probably so. I'm still going through the stages of grief. Waiting on Ric Flair to show up and form the Dark Riders with Jeff Jarrett, Jay Lethal, and Andrade. 

[sek69]

I would think the locker room would probably be more open to Jarrett than Punk, since Jeff has shown he's willing to listen to the youngin's and not just be like "if you don't do it the way I say you're stupid".

[KawadaSmile]

8 hours ago, El-P said:

Billy Gunn is gonna teach what ? How to get over thanks to someone else's catchphrase every 22 years ?

In the interview he doesn't just talk about himself, but also mentions Arn Anderson. Like, is no one going to listen to that guy?

[C.S.]

9 hours ago, El-P said:

Billy Gunn is gonna teach what ? How to get over thanks to someone else's catchphrase every 22 years ?

Someone else's catchphrase or not, he's more over than 95% of the AEW roster. 

[Embrodak]

AEW may not be going down in flames, but at this point, I see very little reason to watch it. The Elite can’t even go at the level they used to, which is what was supposed to be what justified them flushing traditional ring psychology down the drain; Bryan Danielson is the world’s best paid midcarder; I can’t stand Moxley’s in-ring style; I can’t stand Jericho’s anything; they regularly push and feature guys I don’t want to see and marginalize guys I do want to see; and MJF, my favorite young guy, appears poised to do an ill-advised babyface turn. Punk was pretty much the guy I wanted to see on the show, and if he’s splitsville, well, call me when they put the world title on Ricky Starks, I guess.

[El-P]

11 hours ago, KawadaSmile said:

In the interview he doesn't just talk about himself, but also mentions Arn Anderson. Like, is no one going to listen to that guy?

I dunno. He's 64 years old. If I'm a young 23 years old guy and I want advice, I will sure get them from veterans like Omega or the Bucks first (because indeed, they are veterans workers, just as Arn was a veteran during the Nitro years). Guys who are old by my own standards. Not everybody is watching stuff from 20 years before they were born. It's striking to me how pro-wrestling is such a conservative environment, including in the fanbase, with an reverence to the past that goes beyond reason. People are still talking about stuff from 35 years ago like it was yesterday. Well, it's not yesterday, 35 years ago is ancient. Sure, Arn was an awesome worker 40 to 30 years ago, and sure there is stuff to learn from this. But not getting why guys in their early 20's would rather look up to guys in the mid-30's (which, by their standards, are already fairly old and from the former generation) really speaks of this, sorry to have to say it, old man mentality that is rampant in pro-wrestling fandom.Well, of course you look at WWE median TV audience and this explains that. Still, it doesn't shock me that very young guys would not even care about a 64 year old in the locker room, as sad as it seems to us, hardcore geeky, tape collecting (that's for the age thing) gatekeepers. Plus, let's be real, pro-wrestling should be moving forward, as it always did. And people moving it forward are always the younger guys changing it from within and making it evolve, to the chagrin of the older generations, workers and fans alike. 

11 hours ago, C.S. said:

Someone else's catchphrase or not, he's more over than 95% of the AEW roster. 

Ok, but what does that mean ? Like, really mean ? "He's over" seems like a magic word, but it often hides tons of complex stuff that have to do with status, context and outside elements. Is Billy Gunn over, or is the entire act over ? If you take Billy Gunn solo and push him as a serious contented for a title, his he gonna stay over very long ? And is this "overness" means anything in term of business ? And again, is this due to his talent and creativity or just haphazard ? 

Sure, right now, in the current context, Billy Gunn gets great reactions thanks to an act that is super over. It reminds me of Too Cool & Rikishi in what was a super hot WWF back then. The act was over. Was it sustainable ? Nope. But they had a nice ride. That doesn't mean I'll think of Billy Gunn with some kind of pro-wrestling wizard (pun intended) who knows the secret sauce of how to get over.

Hell, Hook at one point was arguably more over than 95% of the AEW audience. Before he even debuted. That was a meme. 

So yeah, the idea of "X is so over therefore" is nice and all, but unless you dig into the reasons of why and in which conditions this works, it really doesn't mean that much. People talk about how Wardlow was so over and is kinda cold now and blame the booking for it. Sure, booking was not great, but what were they supposed to do with Wardlow ? Give him the World title ? And then what ? Beat everyone ? We see how Jade has already jumped the shark doing this. My impression is that Wardlow got super over within a certain context only, it being the MJF feud. After is was done, and I've said it over and over again, a big guy doing three powerbombs in a row is not that super interesting in the long run. After a while, it gets kinda repetitive. The fact he's having better matches lately has me a bit more optimistic but then again, he'll have to lose at one point, and then what happens ?

Speaking of big guys, Luchasaurus is currently suffering exactly what I feared. They have him work like Kane and deprived him of most of the things that made him unique and cool (the moves, people, the moves), and he's not 1/10th as over as he was before in Jurassik Express. And since he never was a great worker to begin with, now he's basically a slightly better version of W. Morrissey with a dinosaur mask.

[NintendoLogic]

Back in the Nitro era, Bischoff called it the Duggan Effect. Hacksaw always got a huge pop when he showed up on TV, but he never meant a thing for ratings or attendance.

[El-P]

Sid had pretty much the same effect too by then. Always got a great reactions from the people who were already there, but never sold a ticket or a PPV buy for WCW. Very much a "status" pop, mixed in with nostalgia (and jingoist pandering, which always worked back then) with Duggan.

Now, the Acclaimed may very well be selling merchandise and do good ratings (I haven't checked, I honestly am not very interested in ratings), but again, Billy Gunn on his own ? (and then again, The Acclaimed without Billy Gunn ? Who knows. They are hot together now, good for them)

And then again, that doesn't mean at all anyone has to like it or consider it quality because it does good ratings. As we speak, the biggest draw in pro-wrestling in term of moving ratings from the norm and selling merch is Bray Wyatt.

[Flyin' Brian]

I really want to see the quarter hour ratings for Jericho vs Cabana. 

AEW’s big surprises bring in one of the worst demo ratings of the year (msn.com)

[Jmare007]

How has been the demo for SD! this year? I've been really impressed with RAW's number since Vince left but haven't paid attention to the blue brand.

Very interesting how in 14 months the younger audience slowly shifted to WWE.

[El-P]

5 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Very interesting how in 14 months the younger audience slowly shifted to WWE.

AEW is still by far the youngest audience in pro-wrestling though. They are losing their edge on that matter, but WWE's median age is still very old.

[Jmare007]

11 minutes ago, El-P said:

AEW is still by far the youngest audience in pro-wrestling though. They are losing their edge on that matter, but WWE's median age is still very old.

I've only paid attention to the 18-34 demo and WWE (at least RAW) went from being below AEW to above it. That's interesting to me. I can see younger audiences feeling AEW ain't cool anymore and stop watching, but why would they tune in to RAW is not something I'd expect.

[El-P]

8 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

I've only paid attention to the 18-34 demo and WWE (at least RAW) went from being below AEW to above it. That's interesting to me.

Oh, for sure, WWE is hot right now. Their Rumble advance is already huge and will be the biggest Rumble gate ever or something. Maybe the younger audience just likes LORE a lot.  

AEW has lost something. Maybe it's simply the freshness aspect of it. And I mean, speaking from someone who had more fun than ever watching pro-wrestling with the first 2/3 years of AEW, I'm catching up with IMPACT from this Summer, and if I had to chose to watch only 1 promotion right now as a tv weekly show, it would be IMPACT over AEW without much hesitation.

[El-P]

So, Matt Hardy speaks on his podcast and says the Elite did not do anything wrong, as he witnessed the altercation. Of course it's gonna be deemed more conspiracy and politics by some, because no matter how many people will attest of the story, it always will be "but but but" unless it's going in Punk's favor. But anywoo. Hopefully the locker room morale gets better and we don't get any of that kinda stuff (see also, Andrade punching a guy to get fired), that can only help.

[sek69]

More and more it's looking pretty clear who was in the right and it's really *really* upsetting to the folks that have weird hate boners for the Elite. 

[Flyin' Brian]

29 minutes ago, sek69 said:

More and more it's looking pretty clear who was in the right and it's really *really* upsetting to the folks that have weird hate boners for the Elite. 

I don’t hate the Elite. I care about the truth. But I find it funny that everyone dismissed the Larry the dog stuff and says WhY dIdN’t It CoMe OuT iN tHe BeGiNnInG but eats it up as 100% truth when Jericho says oh yeah I confronted Punk or Matt Hardy says he saw the whole thing. He was in the dressing room too when it happened? Whoever did the ‘investigation’ didn’t even speak to Ace Steel’s wife who was actually in the room? Doesn’t anyone with an objective bone in their body find that odd?

[C.S.]

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[Matt D]

I put this together over at DVDVR but it's a crazy crazy list. These are the people that I could find on the roster that were injured/suspended/off the roster somehow during the last year. And I'm sure I'm missing people.

 

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

It's the injuries and other incidents. Khan had his notebooks and things planned out and now he had to deal with Injuries or things like Mox being gone for a couple of months due to rehab or Black's mental issues, Jeff Hardy, etc., Cody leaving, Brawl Out, Kingston/Sammy and Andrade/Sammy. Right after he signs a guy like O'Reilly to a big extension and has him win a battle royal for a title shot, he goes down with a career threatening injury. Danielson was out for a couple of months. Kingston was out, which is easy to forget. Punk obviously. Cole is out. Omega was out for a very long time. A Jackson was down for a while. Statlander, Hirsch. Soho. Rosa. It's a massive list. And then you have guys who were working hurt like Dax and Menard. He had to change plans dozens and dozens of times. Of course that's going to be problematic. It's been one shock after another and he's had to scramble again and again and again.

People who were suspended, injured, or otherwise out of action (see Jeff Hardy) the last 12 or so months:

  Reveal hidden contents

• Moxley
• Rosa
• Fenix
• Bowens
• Cassidy(?) - I think he was out for a month or two and had a big return before Forbidden Door right?
• Adam Cole
• Adam Page
• Andrade (Suspended)
• Angelico
• Matthews (suspension rumor, right?)
• Danielson
• Jericho (Almost died!)
• Christian
• Danhausen came injured so that doesn't really count..
• Punk
• Darius Martin
• Dax (Worked obviously hurt)
• Kingston
• Jeffy Hardy
• Alex Reynolds
• Omega
• O'Reilly
• Lee Johnson
• Luther (I think at least)
• A Jackson (one hurt, both suspended)
• Menard (obviously worked hurt)
• Matt Sydal
• Black
• Wight or Henry ended up more hurt than expected.
• Santana
• Sammy (suspended)
• Scorpio Sky
• When did Trent come back?
• Bunny
• Statlander
• Hirsch
• Mercedes Martinez
• Ford
• Velvet
• Skye Blue was out for a bit.
• Soho

And I'm sure I'm missing someone and it doesn't count people like Jake Atlas. That list is absolutely nuts!

 

[Flyin' Brian]

If I was conducting an investigation, these are the questions I would want answered:

1. Who was leaking info about why Cabana was moved to ROH and implicating Punk in having anything to do with it? Also interested in why, but have to find who first.

2. Adam Page is definitely someone you can talk to about why he felt compelled to bring it up in a promo on National TV when it had nothing at all to do with the match with Punk.

3. Who is the one leaking out all the info during the 'investigation'? Shouldn't that be kept private?

4. Why was Megha asked to come with the Eiite to the locker room and confront Punk?

5. Why was Ace Steel's wife not interviewed as part of the 'investigation'?

6. Who actually conducted the 'investigation'?

I use 'investigation' in quotation marks because Khan is very familiar with how the NFL conducts investigations and this smells like that. Figure out what you want the result to be and find someone who will give you that result by working backwards and cherry picking the facts while only talking to the people that will give you the desired result. We'll probably never see an actual report or evidence, just more leaks from 'sources' who supposedly are in the know but won't put their name to anything. 

Looking back at the timeline of everything that happened, it's all sus. 

[El-P]

33 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I care about the truth.

Unless the truth is "CM Punk was an asshole, it wasn't the Elite's fault" apparently. 

33 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

But I find it funny that everyone dismissed the Larry the dog stuff and says WhY dIdN’t It CoMe OuT iN tHe BeGiNnInG

Because no source ever reported it at first despite only hearing the story that came from Punk's side.

33 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

or Matt Hardy says he saw the whole thing. 

Because it confirms pretty much both what's been out there since the beginning (Punk and Ace physically attacking the Elite).

33 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Doesn’t anyone with an objective bone in their body find that odd?

Basically, being objective to you is siding with Punk despite all the actual facts of unprofesionnalism and results of the investigation pointing out to the other direction. The only pro-Punk's "arguments" at this point are conspiracy theory level. Really now. Get over it people.

[El-P]

27 minutes ago, C.S. said:

New AEW merch!

Limited to 200

https://www.shopaew.com/cm-punk-holiday-2022-ornament-limited-edition-200-available.html

More here:

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That's no ice-cream, but hey, that's better than nothing.

[Flyin' Brian]

Just now, El-P said:

Unless the truth is "CM Punk was an asshole, it wasn't the Elite's fault" apparently. 

Because no source ever reported it at first despite only hearing the story that came from Punk's side.

Because it confirms pretty much both what's been out there since the beginning (Punk and Ace physically attacking the Elite).

Basically, being objective to you is siding with Punk despite all the actual facts and results of the investigation pointing out to the other direction. The only pro-Punk's "arguments" at this point are conspiracy theory level. 

If you look at everything from the beginning, there's no way you can objectively say the Elite don't share some of the blame for what went down. They are the ones that decided it was a good idea to get a group of people together and go confront Punk in the middle of the night.

No source reported it because no one is actually really talking to Punk and getting his side. I'd be surprised if Punk has spoken to any dirtsheet reporter personally. No one has spoken to Ace Steel's wife. I don't know if Ace Steel has spoken to anyone. The only people talking are the Elite and people on their side. 

It's hard not to talk about conspiracies when no one is putting their name to anything. I'm hoping a real journalist will tackle this at some point. I'd like to see an actual report instead of someone just telling me what's in it. I'd like to hear from people that were actually involved instead of someone just telling me what a 'source' said.