Is the empire crumbling before our eyes?

[Jmare007]

10 hours ago, MoS said:

He made AEW consistently be number one for the day in ratings, and top 5 in the week. Yes, AEW has not approached its debut show rating. By this logic, Roman's entire run is a dud because SD has never come close to the numbers it got for its debut on Fox. Except that is patently ridiculous, and so is pretending that Punk was not a difference maker. And it's cute how ticket sales are a great positive for WWE, but AEW doing multiple $1 million gates and regularly beating WWE in ticket sales when they would run the same areas around the same period of time, including NYC, after Punk came (the first non-WWE company to ever do so) is just an "RoH-level" niche difference. 

And since we are so focused on business, let's not forget that WWE's business has turned around and been the hottest it's been in years precisely from the time Roman decided to be a part-timer and an AEW midcarder returned at Wrestlemania and immediately made Raw extremely hot. Not once has announcing Roman for a particular show made a tangible difference in ratings or ticket sales. That's one of the main reasons why AEW was beating WWE in ticket sales for TV tapings regularly after Punk showed up. So clearly his run is a dud and the McMahons, Cena and Cody should only be the main eventers. Except no one says that. Nor should they.

Oh, and Hall and Nash didn't have a particularly significant impact on business. WCW went on a streak, but WCW was regularly beating WWF in the ratings even prior to that. House show attendance had rebounded and increased prior to their debut, with the Flair-Savage feud. It was Hogan's return and turn that got business to a new level. 

Gawd damn the stanning is strong on this one. Giving all the credit to Punk, giving zero credit to Roman (even calling a DUD, the fuck :lol:) and then weirdly giving zero credit to Hall and Nash when Punk's case is pretty similar.

[KawadaSmile]

5 minutes ago, Jmare007 said:

Gawd damn the stanning is strong on this one. Giving all the credit to Punk, giving zero credit to Roman (even calling a DUD, the fuck :lol:) and then weirdly giving zero credit to Hall and Nash when Punk's case is pretty similar.

that's balance bubba

we need to have stans so that haters like me can act freely and say that punk has more screws in his foot than good aew matches! I don't actually believe this but lying is fun, as Daniel Bryan would say

[Flyin' Brian]

12 hours ago, DR Ackermann said:

Ratings are up because it was the end of the summer. Ratings always dip in the summer.

AEW Dynamite is on it’s longest streak ever of consecutive episodes over 1 million viewers. I don’t think that can be explained away just by the time of the year. 

[MoS]

On 9/23/2022 at 10:34 PM, Jmare007 said:

Gawd damn the stanning is strong on this one. Giving all the credit to Punk, giving zero credit to Roman (even calling a DUD, the fuck :lol:) and then weirdly giving zero credit to Hall and Nash when Punk's case is pretty similar.

My point was that saying Punk made no difference because ratings were not as high as the debut episode is as silly and ridiculous as saying Roman's run is a dud because ratings never reached the heights of either the debut Fox episode or the post-big NFL game episode. I expressly said that calling Roman's run a dud is "patently ridiculous" and that no one should ever argue that. Those were literally my exact words. Perhaps next time don't jump to conclusions and actually try reading. It's not my fault Roman is not a tangible difference-maker; no one in WWE is except Cena. The entire point is that just because Punk did not make an Austin-like difference in AEW's business doesn't mean his run was a dud. 

As for Nash and Hall, look man, I love Hall, and I hate Hogan, but facts are facts. Hall and Nash were replaceable, Hogan was not. He was the key. That's not "weird", that is simply facts. Feel free to go back and check the Y-t-Y ratings, PPV buys and attendance, let me know what you conclude.

[MoS]

With Hall and Nash, the most generous inference is that they were like DX - they enhanced the overall presentation, they helped make the product look cool, but they were not driving the growth in business. If Hogan doesn't turn, WCW doesn't go on a monstrous run of business like it did.

[Flyin' Brian]

5 minutes ago, MoS said:

With Hall and Nash, the most generous inference is that they were like DX - they enhanced the overall presentation, they helped make the product look cool, but they were not driving the growth in business. If Hogan doesn't turn, WCW doesn't go on a monstrous run of business like it did.

Hogan's turn was huge, but I have to disagree with you that Hall and Nash weren't a big part of that. You can't run that angle with say Jim Duggan and Brutus Beefcake or pick any two of Hogan's friends he brought in with him from WWF. It worked so well because both Hall and Nash were former WCW guys that the audience was reasonably familiar with from their time in WWF and had been booked as upper card guys in WWF. I can only think of a couple of people in WWF like Bret or Shawn, possibly Undertaker, who could have made that big of a difference and pulled off what they pulled at that time. 

[MoS]

11 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Hogan's turn was huge, but I have to disagree with you that Hall and Nash weren't a big part of that. You can't run that angle with say Jim Duggan and Brutus Beefcake or pick any two of Hogan's friends he brought in with him from WWF. It worked so well because both Hall and Nash were former WCW guys that the audience was reasonably familiar with from their time in WWF and had been booked as upper card guys in WWF. I can only think of a couple of people in WWF like Bret or Shawn, possibly Undertaker, who could have made that big of a difference and pulled off what they pulled at that time. 

I think they eventually became a big part of the angle, especially with TV ratings, but I don't think their debut was particularly significant to the bottom line. PPV buys for Bash at the Beach 1997 were either flat or actually might have declined - don't exactly remember off the top of my head. I think they needed to be people who had recently been on WWF television, so someone like Davey Boy Smith or Owen would also have meant the same for business initially.

When I said they did not make a particularly significant impact on business, I meant their debut. Ultimately, given how long the angle went, you needed people with charisma and presence to do weekly prime time television, and Hall and Nash definitely fit the criteria - Hall more than Nash imo. 

[Flyin' Brian]

3 minutes ago, MoS said:

I think they eventually became a big part of the angle, especially with TV ratings, but I don't think their debut was particularly significant to the bottom line. PPV buys for Bash at the Beach 1997 were either flat or actually might have declined - don't exactly remember off the top of my head. I think they needed to be people who had recently been on WWF television, so someone like Davey Boy Smith or Owen would also have meant the same for business initially.

When I said they did not make a particularly significant impact on business, I meant their debut. Ultimately, given how long the angle went, you needed people with charisma and presence to do weekly prime time television, and Hall and Nash definitely fit the criteria - Hall more than Nash imo. 

They were both good talkers, and the attitude, look, and personality of both fit perfectly. I don't think they could have picked three better people for the initial NWO. I think it was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Davey Boy Smith and Owen weren't as high on the card in WWF or had as much history with WCW (Davey Boy was there for a cup of coffee in the early 90's) While the gimmicks weren't great, Nash and Hall had been in WCW for several years before and were recognizable for that as well as what they did in WWF. The aspect that it was an invasion storyline can't be overlooked. There were people that really thought WWF was invading WCW, so much so that they had to go out of their way to state on air that Hall and Nash were not with WWF to keep from being sued. These were guys who up until recently had been a big part of WWE programming, and them showing up in WCW was huge at the time. 

[MoS]

4 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

They were both good talkers, and the attitude, look, and personality of both fit perfectly. I don't think they could have picked three better people for the initial NWO. I think it was the perfect combination at the perfect time. Davey Boy Smith and Owen weren't as high on the card in WWF or had as much history with WCW (Davey Boy was there for a cup of coffee in the early 90's) While the gimmicks weren't great, Nash and Hall had been in WCW for several years before and were recognizable for that as well as what they did in WWF. The aspect that it was an invasion storyline can't be overlooked. There were people that really thought WWF was invading WCW, so much so that they had to go out of their way to state on air that Hall and Nash were not with WWF to keep from being sued. These were guys who up until recently had been a big part of WWE programming, and them showing up in WCW was huge at the time. 

I agree about the invasion part being very important, hence why I said they needed to have been on WWF television recently. Not sure about having a history with WCW though; I don't think that was a significant factor. 

[Flyin' Brian]

Hall debuted from WWF in WCW on May 27th, 1996. Nash came in on June 10th, 1996. That was the last week WWF beats WCW before the 83 week streak of WCW beating WWF in the ratings starts the very next week on June 17, 1996. Hogan doesn't join the NWO until Bash at The Beach on July 7th. The wave had already started before Hogan turned. 

[Flyin' Brian]

4 minutes ago, MoS said:

I agree about the invasion part being very important, hence why I said they needed to have been on WWF television recently. Not sure about having a history with WCW though; I don't think that was a significant factor. 

I can't think of any other two guys that would have been available that could have done what Hall and Nash did. Owen and Davey Boy, while being good wrestlers, just would not have fit that angle at all. From the moment Hall comes out of the crowd, grabs a mike, and starts talking shit it was on. I can't see Davey Boy or Owen doing that. 

[MoS]

On 9/23/2022 at 11:29 PM, Flyin' Brian said:

Hall debuted from WWF in WCW on May 27th, 1996. Nash came in on June 10th, 1996. That was the last week WWF beats WCW before the 83 week streak of WCW beating WWF in the ratings starts the very next week on June 17, 1996. Hogan doesn't join the NWO until Bash at The Beach on July 7th. The wave had already started before Hogan turned. 

I am aware of when the 83-week winning streak started. I just don't think that one month of victories by itself means much. There had been mini-streaks before in that war. WCW had gone on a nice little mini-streak in the spring before  Nitro got pre-empted for a week just as Shawn became champ at WM, and Nitro lost some momentum, so that mini-streak ended. Point being, WCW had done well in the war until then as well, so I don't think their debuts started a wave, so to speak. I really think it was the turn that started that. 

[sek69]

1 hour ago, Flyin' Brian said:

Hall debuted from WWF in WCW on May 27th, 1996. Nash came in on June 10th, 1996. That was the last week WWF beats WCW before the 83 week streak of WCW beating WWF in the ratings starts the very next week on June 17, 1996. Hogan doesn't join the NWO until Bash at The Beach on July 7th. The wave had already started before Hogan turned. 

I'm old enough to remember there being some resentment that Hogan turned because he was latching on to the heat Nash and Hall were getting. 

[strobogo]

5 hours ago, Dav'oh said:

He's not dead, y'all 

Seeing a lot of eulogies for the bloke.

This is not how the CM Punk/Phil Brooks story ends. Dude wants a legacy like Bret.

Lmao. Dude will never have a legacy like Bret. The closest he can get is being a bitter fuck, but Bret was bitter about Vince reneging on a TWENTY YEAR contract and publicly fucking him over in Bret's country, his brother dying live on PPV and the show going on, and getting his brain scrambled and forced into retirement. Then not long after, both parents die and he has a stroke. 

Punk's bitterness is he didn't go on last at WM as champion, a main eventer in a company he just joined didn't care about his advice, and he was upset about the wrong people for being gossips. 

 

Anyway, I think TK himself is the leak. Not intentionally to stir shit up, but he's just very excitable and blabs.

[sek69]

37 minutes ago, strobogo said:

Anyway, I think TK himself is the leak. Not intentionally to stir shit up, but he's just very excitable and blabs.

You might be on to something, it's funny how no one else seems to think they guy who can spend two hours at a post show presser talking about 80s territorial history might have spilled some beans talking to journalists he's clearly comfortable talking to. 

[Flyin' Brian]

3 hours ago, sek69 said:

I'm old enough to remember there being some resentment that Hogan turned because he was latching on to the heat Nash and Hall were getting. 

I was a 16 year old fan when the turn happened. Wasn’t online yet so I don’t know about the behind the scenes stuff, but Hogan was always the #1 choice to be in the NWO. Even though Sting was considered, and I love Sting,   it wouldn’t have worked out in the long run with anyone but Hogan. He had to be convinced it would work, but after he saw the reactions Hall and Nash were getting and that business was picking up he was in. It was the smart play, but it was also the right play for WCW. 

[Flyin' Brian]

2 hours ago, strobogo said:

Lmao. Dude will never have a legacy like Bret. The closest he can get is being a bitter fuck, but Bret was bitter about Vince reneging on a TWENTY YEAR contract and publicly fucking him over in Bret's country, his brother dying live on PPV and the show going on, and getting his brain scrambled and forced into retirement. Then not long after, both parents die and he has a stroke. 

Punk's bitterness is he didn't go on last at WM as champion, a main eventer in a company he just joined didn't care about his advice, and he was upset about the wrong people for being gossips. 

 

Anyway, I think TK himself is the leak. Not intentionally to stir shit up, but he's just very excitable and blabs.

How do we know Punk was upset at the wrong people for being gossips, when we don’t know who the gossips were? No one has revealed who was doing the talking. If Dave and others are protecting their sources I can’t really trust them to tell the truth when they say someone isn’t leaking them info. 

[sek69]

19 minutes ago, Flyin' Brian said:

I was a 16 year old fan when the turn happened. Wasn’t online yet so I don’t know about the behind the scenes stuff, but Hogan was always the #1 choice to be in the NWO. Even though Sting was considered, and I love Sting,   it wouldn’t have worked out in the long run with anyone but Hogan. He had to be convinced it would work, but after he saw the reactions Hall and Nash were getting and that business was picking up he was in. It was the smart play, but it was also the right play for WCW. 

Sting was the backup plan if Hogan didn't go for it, allegedly they did the "Eric got kidnapped" angle so he could stay backstage and make sure Hulk didn't get cold feet at the last minute.  

At the time, the message board chatter was that while Hogan was wary about turning heel, he saw the writing on the wall that the Outsiders deal was going to become the hottest angle in the company and he wanted to hitch his wagon. 

[strobogo]

That whole story has always seemed like complete bullshit. There's no way it was a night of the show thing for Hogan deciding to or not to turn heel. Along the lines of "we didn't know if Andre was going to do the job" at WM 3 nonsense

[sek69]

It was decided for a while (at least a month if I remember my Observer lore correctly), it was a matter if Hogan was going to pull a "that doesn't work for me brother" at the last minute, 

[NintendoLogic]

Hogan did have a documented history of reneging at the last minute after agreeing to do business, perhaps most notably against Tenryu in SWS. There was also reason to fear he'd get cold feet because he was WCW's biggest merchandise seller and there was no way of knowing nWo merch would blow up the way it did.

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, Flyin' Brian said:

How do we know Punk was upset at the wrong people for being gossips, when we don’t know who the gossips were? No one has revealed who was doing the talking. If Dave and others are protecting their sources I can’t really trust them to tell the truth when they say someone isn’t leaking them info. 

Moreover, even if The Elite weren’t the ones talking to Da Sheetz, they certainly could have been the gossips who spread it to people who *did* talk to Da Sheetz. Punk is a bitter old asshole, but I don’t think he’s such a social inept that he can’t put two and two together about why there’s a shitty locker room rumor about him.

[NintendoLogic]

Again though, why does it have to be a locker room rumor that led to people thinking Punk wanted Cabana out of AEW? That's the inference any sentient observer would have made when Cabana disappeared from AEW TV and then got sent to ROH after Punk arrived. Spreading false rumors to get people to think what they naturally would have thought on their own would be supremely idiotic.

[PeteF3]

2 hours ago, strobogo said:

That whole story has always seemed like complete bullshit. There's no way it was a night of the show thing for Hogan deciding to or not to turn heel. Along the lines of "we didn't know if Andre was going to do the job" at WM 3 nonsense

Hogan literally changed the first WW3 finish as the guys were lining up to go out for the match, so no, it doesn't seem like bullshit to me at all.

[Embrodak]

2 hours ago, NintendoLogic said:

Again though, why does it have to be a locker room rumor that led to people thinking Punk wanted Cabana out of AEW? That's the inference any sentient observer would have made when Cabana disappeared from AEW TV and then got sent to ROH after Punk arrived. Spreading false rumors to get people to think what they naturally would have thought on their own would be supremely idiotic.

Cabana got his teeth kicked out by Danielson this year.