Loss Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 By buying these DVDs and books and going to shows and talking up the game and even trading matches and tapes, do we not bear some responsibility for the sleaziness and pain? Absolutely, 100%, yes. I don't look at it as finger pointing as much as just a statement of how screwed up things are. Lots of factors have contributed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "But watch the crowds at ROH (or ECW, for that matter), and you will see that so often these guys act so sleazy because it impresses the fans" That is true and applies to most entertainment branches. Charisma is a weird thing. Often when I think about wrestling I ask myself what a normal popular music band would do. Would they treat their groupies badly? Are they insane lunatics on drugs? Do they cheat on their spouses? Are they disrespectful towards their roadies? More often than not the answer is yes. I wonder if there are cases of superstars denouncing their early fans (like Hardys vs DVDVR), but that may just be a case of wrestlers forgetting where they came from. It is remarkable how most wrestlers change after they sign with Titan. Their popularity vastly increases as does their contempt for wrestling fans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 IMO the "isn't it our fault for watching" argument is nothing but a strawman. Wrestling would be just as popular without all the fucked-up shit, and since most fans aren't even aware of the truly bizarre happenings, you can hardly say they encourage it. Well, I think your easy dismissal of that argument may be a bit strong, but I see what you mean. By giving money and encouragement to an industry we know is f***'d-up, we are helping to perpetuate the cycles. You are correct that the behind the scenes stuff is not necessary for fan enjoyment, and that could be cleaned up to be sure. So it's not an obvious answer. There is an argument to be made that fans like the old ECW mutants and the current ROH base do encourage fucked up behavior, but luckily they are a small portion of the total wrestling audience. Thinking from a standpoint of messed up stuff demanded in the ring: I was watching the Triumph and Tragedy of World Class DVD, and there's a match from the 60's on there. I really enjoy it because I have begun to get into classic wrestling, but most fans would never sit through it because it's slow, long, and has no real high spots. They would much rather see Cena powerbomb Edge off a 16-ft ladder through two tables. When did that begin? ECW? Nitro's cruiserweights? The Attitude Era? That stuff sold as well or better than ever, and it's here to stay. As for me, I have begun backing away from ROH because more and more, it bores me. The constant crazy spots make my head tired, and the ROHbotness of the fans makes me uncomfortable. All of this talk about what it does to the wrestlers themselves has done nothing but encourage my opinion. (Course, I am a bit of a hypocrite because I find that I am beginning to watch puro, so what can you do? We're all multi-faceted in this crazy fandom world, eh? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "But watch the crowds at ROH (or ECW, for that matter), and you will see that so often these guys act so sleazy because it impresses the fans" That is true and applies to most entertainment branches. Charisma is a weird thing. Often when I think about wrestling I ask myself what a normal popular music band would do. Would they treat their groupies badly? Are they insane lunatics on drugs? Do they cheat on their spouses? Are they disrespectful towards their roadies? More often than not the answer is yes. I wonder if there are cases of superstars denouncing their early fans (like Hardys vs DVDVR), but that may just be a case of wrestlers forgetting where they came from. It is remarkable how most wrestlers change after they sign with Titan. Their popularity vastly increases as does their contempt for wrestling fans Not saying it's right, but could it be that some of them have contempt for the group of fans who would prefer they got repeatedly dropped on their heads for $50 a night in a local national guard armory? I am thinking here of the "You Sold Out" chants at Foley back in the day. Or the way Mickie James is treated by some people over at the ROH and SHIMMER boards. You know what I mean? "I love Alexis Laree -- she's as good as any woman wrestler ever! But now, she's just a sold-out hack who's lost all of her talent since going to WWE. She wouldn't last 10 minutes with Daizee Haze. This Mickie person is not the Alexis we all knew and loved." From a standpoint of wrestlers trying to make a living and reaching the top of their industry, it's gotta be deuced frustrating to have the most vocal minority of the fans shit on them. I don't know that Hardy story, but since it's DVDVR, it may help to prove my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 The Hardy story is that they laugh about the fact that the DVDVR guys shilled them when OMEGA was still around in the last millenium. As far as I know (haven't seen it yet in person) they are really putting them down on the new DVD. Regarding your first paragraph, it is the same with metal bands and "selling out". No difference at all. Maybe every entertainment business in which you can sell out is the same, I haven't thought about that too much. But the metal scene is as ridiculous as the wrestling scene when it comes to selling out. Although I wouldn't know any metal bands who now react like the OMEGA guys.... well, Metallica probably Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 By giving money and encouragement to an industry we know is f***'d-up, we are helping to perpetuate the cycles. You are correct that the behind the scenes stuff is not necessary for fan enjoyment, and that could be cleaned up to be sure. So it's not an obvious answer. Almost every damn week we... - read the same gossip magazines with rotating self-destroying celebrities - vote for the same politians we despise - complain about the smaller number of homeruns.... - ...yet complain about drug use in sports - listen to bad music by bad musicians that some multi billion corporation is forcing down our throats - are participating in disaster tourism instead of trying to help I don't want to know how many bad cycles I am helping. It's not just limited to wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Almost every damn week we... - read the same gossip magazines with rotating self-destroying celebrities - vote for the same politians we despise - complain about the smaller number of homeruns.... - ...yet complain about drug use in sports - listen to bad music by bad musicians that some multi billion corporation is forcing down our throats - are participating in disaster tourism instead of trying to help I don't want to know how many bad cycles I am helping. It's not just limited to wrestling. Damn. Now I am just depressed. . . Regarding your first paragraph, it is the same with metal bands and "selling out". No difference at all. Maybe every entertainment business in which you can sell out is the same, I haven't thought about that too much. But the metal scene is as ridiculous as the wrestling scene when it comes to selling out. Although I wouldn't know any metal bands who now react like the OMEGA guys.... well, Metallica probably Yes, you are right. My brother is a major music guy -- think John Cusack in High Fidelity -- and he hates it when bands make it big that he loved as secret indy records. We all want our special favorites to be ours alone. And sometimes, it's true. Look at James Gibson, who is completely wasted/buried at WWE. I am sad that he doesn't get to share his talent with me and the world. But he lives far better now than he did as an Indy guy, surely, and who am I to begrudge him? I would never say he sold out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 he hates it when bands make it big that he loved as secret indy records. We all want our special favorites to be ours alone.Which is an utterly insane and completely selfish mindset. I've never understood the idea of Sold Out. If you like these people, you want them to succeed, right? And you do realize that most niche indy art cannot succeed in the mainstream? So in order to get paid, they're almost by definition going to have to alter what they do in some way? I've always hated the creepy obsessive types who would rather have their favorite artists starving or working a day job just as long as they keep making their art in the specific way that they like. Lili Taylor was way better in indy films than she was in The Haunting, but the fact that she did that piece of crap and probably bought a house from it doesn't erase all the earlier stuff she'd already done. It's the same in wrestling with the ECW/ROH mentality, they'd rather have their favorite workers killing themselves in little shitty armories and not being able to pay their bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 he hates it when bands make it big that he loved as secret indy records. We all want our special favorites to be ours alone.Which is an utterly insane and completely selfish mindset. I've never understood the idea of Sold Out. If you like these people, you want them to succeed, right? And you do realize that most niche indy art cannot succeed in the mainstream? So in order to get paid, they're almost by definition going to have to alter what they do in some way? I've always hated the creepy obsessive types who would rather have their favorite artists starving or working a day job just as long as they keep making their art in the specific way that they like. Lili Taylor was way better in indy films than she was in The Haunting, but the fact that she did that piece of crap and probably bought a house from it doesn't erase all the earlier stuff she'd already done. It's the same in wrestling with the ECW/ROH mentality, they'd rather have their favorite workers killing themselves in little shitty armories and not being able to pay their bills. Yes, exactly what I am saying! Listen to the pops Danielson gets on 6th Anniversary Show when he talks about how he and others have wrestled through injuries and pain just so they can work for ROH fans and what a pussy Nigel is for not wanting to have his head broken. (I know it was probably mostly a work, but the point remains.) Danielson says something about how he never took those big contracts he was offered because he'd rather stay here with these fans and earn the respect of real people. I call bullsh**. It's one of several options: 1. He was never offered a contract by WWE or TNA -- seems unlikely that at least TNA wouldn't call him for their X-Division. 2. He was offered a contract but turned it down because he likes being the biggest fish in a little pond. Or maybe he truly believes he is being true to his art by not going there. In which case, he's an idiot. The fans have such little respect for him that they cheer when he makes these comments. Just like they cheered Dreamer in the 90's. Watching that promo yesterday, which was actually pretty good from an audience standpoint, was the last straw for me and ROH. I began to really think about what it meant instead of just getting caught up in the emotion. It perfectly underscored exactly what we've been talking about concerning the sleaziness of the business in regards to throwing away wrestler's lives. No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 he hates it when bands make it big that he loved as secret indy records. We all want our special favorites to be ours alone.Which is an utterly insane and completely selfish mindset. I've never understood the idea of Sold Out. If you like these people, you want them to succeed, right? And you do realize that most niche indy art cannot succeed in the mainstream? So in order to get paid, they're almost by definition going to have to alter what they do in some way? I've always hated the creepy obsessive types who would rather have their favorite artists starving or working a day job just as long as they keep making their art in the specific way that they like. Lili Taylor was way better in indy films than she was in The Haunting, but the fact that she did that piece of crap and probably bought a house from it doesn't erase all the earlier stuff she'd already done. It's the same in wrestling with the ECW/ROH mentality, they'd rather have their favorite workers killing themselves in little shitty armories and not being able to pay their bills. Yes, exactly what I am saying! Listen to the pops Danielson gets on 6th Anniversary Show when he talks about how he and others have wrestled through injuries and pain just so they can work for ROH fans and what a pussy Nigel is for not wanting to have his head broken. (I know it was probably mostly a work, but the point remains.) Danielson says something about how he never took those big contracts he was offered because he'd rather stay here with these fans and earn the respect of real people. I call bullsh**. It's one of several options: 1. He was never offered a contract by WWE or TNA -- seems unlikely that at least TNA wouldn't call him for their X-Division. 2. He was offered a contract but turned it down because he likes being the biggest fish in a little pond. Or maybe he truly believes he is being true to his art by not going there. In which case, he's an idiot. The fans have such little respect for him that they cheer when he makes these comments. Just like they cheered Dreamer in the 90's. Watching that promo yesterday, which was actually pretty good from an audience standpoint, was the last straw for me and ROH. I began to really think about what it meant instead of just getting caught up in the emotion. It perfectly underscored exactly what we've been talking about concerning the sleaziness of the business in regards to throwing away wrestler's lives. No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans." It's all about what makes Danielson happy. You're projecting on to him what you think he should do. If he's happier in the indies so be it. If he's happier in NOAH than so be it. If he's happier in the WWE or in Italy than so be it. I'm the biggest critic eveer of ROH fans (I took a ton of heat in the past because I was one of the first to start critizing ROH fans) but what are they supposed to do with Danielson makes those comments? Boo? They're cheering for what he tells them make him happy. They're respecting his happiness. There's nothing wrong with that. And yeah, anyone who turns against someone once they "sell out" is usually wrong. I hate that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 The fans have such little respect for him that they cheer when he makes these comments. Just like they cheered Dreamer in the 90's. For all his whiny hand-wringing microanalysis, Bruce Mitchell had that one pegged a dozen years ago. He was talking about some Tommy Dreamer match, and how the fans didn't seemed to care when their hero lost and only cheered harder when he got his ass brutally kicked. "If the workers are willing to put their bodies through that for us, then it means that they really love and respect us and it's kind of like we're in the business!" No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans."I am so stealing this argument next time I run into some indy snob who complains about Selling Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 "respecting the business" is like the constant references to America as the "homeland" post-9/11. It is a creepy term tossed around by uncomfortable folks condoning and applauding behavior and actions that would be totally unacceptable in any other setting. Think about it, what does "respect the business" even mean? When was the last time you caught someone applauding the P+L sheet at Barnes and Noble or chanting "Best Buy! Best Buy! Best Buy!" because they got good customer service while shopping for an iPod. What the heel is it about the wrestling business that makes it something that must be "respected!" in such an overt, dedicated way..something most Americans don't even do with their own country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Damn. Now I am just depressed. . . As a wrestling fan it is not only your obligation to be depressed about being a wrestling fan but you also have to post at least three self-loathing posts a day on a wrestling message board while condemning the fact that other wrestling fans post on a wrestling message board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Thinking from a standpoint of messed up stuff demanded in the ring: I was watching the Triumph and Tragedy of World Class DVD, and there's a match from the 60's on there. I really enjoy it because I have begun to get into classic wrestling, but most fans would never sit through it because it's slow, long, and has no real high spots. They would much rather see Cena powerbomb Edge off a 16-ft ladder through two tables. When did that begin? ECW? Nitro's cruiserweights? The Attitude Era? That stuff sold as well or better than ever, and it's here to stay. ECW was never really that popular, though it achieved enough notoriety to have some degree of influence on the major promotions. Nitro's cruiserweights were pretty poplar at times. I know Mysterio, at least, was a significant ratings draw for them. But the real draw of the company was Hollywood Hogan doing mean things while Sting lurked about in the rafters, and later, Goldberg destroying dudes. The Attitude Era actually played down many of the "high-risk" aspects of the aesthetic they were going for, at least until the Hardys got popular, and even then it was largely limited to whatever they were doing. Even Foley really only took those ungodly beatings in a handful of matches, and as he noted in his first book, those did less for his popularity than pulling a sweatsock out of his pants. Their main draw had some major physical limitations that prevented him from doing a lot of the more dangerous stuff. The hardcore matches weren't that hardcore. The cruiserweights were quickly swept under the rug. They broke a lot of tables, but that's about it. I'm not saying fans didn't/don't like that stuff, but I don't know that it ever sold to them as well as you think/fear it did. I think there are a lot more fans in the same boat as you than you may realize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dylan Waco Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Foley took crazy bumps in virtually every match going back to his WWE debut where Billington tried to kill him. Think about it SLL. Staple Foley bumps include: elbow drop to little or no protection from apron to the floor. running knee first slam into ring steps, with the flip bump running over the top rope clothesline to floor rope hangmen spot Almost all of Foley's big matches and most of his minor ones include at least one of these spots, and that includes stuff from the Attitude era...and these are just staple Foley spots (which is sort of the point, Foley making crazy bumps look normal fucks with everyones sense of proportion). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 No porn starlet would say, "Hey, I was offered big contracts by Vivid and Wicked to make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year. Besides the money, the conditions are better and the oportunity exists for my work to be seen by many, many more people. But I turned it down because I felt that working on bangbus.com was truer to my art. I wouldn't want to lose the respect of those fans." Great line. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Foley took crazy bumps in virtually every match going back to his WWE debut where Billington tried to kill him. Think about it SLL. Staple Foley bumps include: elbow drop to little or no protection from apron to the floor. running knee first slam into ring steps, with the flip bump running over the top rope clothesline to floor rope hangmen spot Almost all of Foley's big matches and most of his minor ones include at least one of these spots, and that includes stuff from the Attitude era...and these are just staple Foley spots (which is sort of the point, Foley making crazy bumps look normal fucks with everyones sense of proportion). OK, point taken. Still, point is that wrestling fans don't necessarily demand high-risk stuff to the point that some people think they do, even if they do enjoy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jingus Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 If you overuse the risky stuff, the fans get used to it. How many years has it been since the last Dudleys match where the crowd wasn't demanding tables? And I've seen countless internet reports about shows where some hardcore guy like Necro Butcher wrestled but didn't get carved open, and the person writing the report seemed disappointed at the lack of blood. Same thing if they saw a Jack Evans match which didn't feature enough spectacular flips or dramatic bumps for their taste. Of course, the nice thing about wrestling's short memory is that you can recondition the fanbase's expectations over time, as the WWE has done with its gradual slowing-down of their style over the past few years. It's a lot easier for a guy like Jeff Hardy to get a Holy Shit chant now than it was a few years back when people were burned out on the late 90s/early 00s sped-up stylings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 IMO the "isn't it our fault for watching" argument is nothing but a strawman. Wrestling would be just as popular without all the fucked-up shit, and since most fans aren't even aware of the truly bizarre happenings, you can hardly say they encourage it. Most fans aren't aware of it, but we are. So people need to be honest and say, "I know wrestling is fucked up, but I like it and can't stop watching," just like people know porn isn't good, but keep watching it without any concern for the actor's welfare or how shitty their life may be. We've now reached the point where people a wrestling fan is selfish, if we weren't already there considering we mainly watch it for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indikator Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 Believe it or not, but almost every article I know of about the wrestling business during the 50s in continental Europe mentioned how wrestling probably wouldn't exist ten years later as by then there wouldn't be anything left to do. You see, pre-war you had the slow and technical Graeco-Roman style, then you had the catch style that relied more on brawls and heeling. Even most promoters admitted back then that you had to give the fans more highspots and more showmanship and that the fans would burn out in a few years. The fans would be desensibilized (just like with TLC, death matches and Misawa headdrops) and there was no way to follow up. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DaDirtiest Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 List Of Dead Porn Stars And Circumstances Surrounding Their Deaths This is easily proof that porn is much more of an exploitation type biz then wrestling. How many wrestling managers/spouses killed their loved ones? (Apart from the obvious 2) Benoit and Snuka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DaDirtiest Posted May 26, 2008 Report Share Posted May 26, 2008 Sorry DBL POST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 It's all about what makes Danielson happy. You're projecting on to him what you think he should do. If he's happier in the indies so be it. If he's happier in NOAH than so be it. If he's happier in the WWE or in Italy than so be it. I'm the biggest critic eveer of ROH fans (I took a ton of heat in the past because I was one of the first to start critizing ROH fans) but what are they supposed to do with Danielson makes those comments? Boo? They're cheering for what he tells them make him happy. They're respecting his happiness. There's nothing wrong with that. And yeah, anyone who turns against someone once they "sell out" is usually wrong. I hate that too. You may be right. I can concede that if it's what Danielson wants to do, then more power to him. Maybe he DOES like being the big fish/small pond. I shouldn't say he's an idiot for that decision alone. It just doesn't make sense to me, though. Most artists of whatever form WANT people to see their work, the more the merrier. I am certainly no insider, but I have read quite a few wrestling memoirs, and it would seem in my limited perspective that in this aspect they are not much different than other artists like singers, actors, or writers. Like I said, the promo was well-delivered, and I cheered it at first as well. They wouldn't boo him, you're right. But I just wonder how many of them have really thought about what their cheers mean? Once I stopped and considered it for the first time, I started to wonder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 As a wrestling fan it is not only your obligation to be depressed about being a wrestling fan but you also have to post at least three self-loathing posts a day on a wrestling message board while condemning the fact that other wrestling fans post on a wrestling message board This statement is genius! I hope you don't mind if I steal it for a sig, giving you credit of course. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resident Evil Posted May 28, 2008 Report Share Posted May 28, 2008 As a wrestling fan it is not only your obligation to be depressed about being a wrestling fan but you also have to post at least three self-loathing posts a day on a wrestling message board while condemning the fact that other wrestling fans post on a wrestling message board This statement is genius! I hope you don't mind if I steal it for a sig, giving you credit of course. . . Hmm, I'm tempted to use it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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