jdw Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Mainstream Japanese porn, at least the stuff they show at Love Hotels, is much less sleazy than mainstream North American porn. In the Japanese porn I've seen, it's generally one-on-one vanilla sex and they blur out the genitalia. I'm sure that there is underground Japanese porn that's purely horrrific... I've seen some cartoon stuff that's stomach-churning... but all of the stuff I've seen with actual human beings involved (not much, but some) has been a gentle step beyond US soft-core. *Mainstream* Japanese porn is quite a bit sleazier than than mainstream US porn. I don't think it's even very close. The "blur" on genitalia seems to get the attention of US porn fans when they watch it, and to a degree they miss the psychology of what's going on. (Then again... I often get the feeling that US porn fans aren't always hit to the pysch of US porn, even when it's pretty basic shit). About the only thing that Japanese porn doesn't "top" US porn in is anal, which is so common in US porn these days it's kind of laughable. But S&M/B&D is far bigger and more mainstream in Japanese porn than here. Humiliation, domination and rape themes aren't uncommon here, but in Japan are almost the norm (going in both directions). I can't think of anything in US mainstream that is the equiv of the Schoolgirl fetish in Japan that hits you over the head in Japan. I guess the whole "Barely Legal" and "18" concept here... but honestly, the Schoolgirl stuff plays far more to psych. Daniel is almost cerainly talking about stuff beyond that. Underage nude photobooks were mainstream in bookstores in 1995-96 when I was in Japan. Anime and heantai with tentacles and monsters and rape and lolitas and incest remain extremely common in Japan. I haven't run across to many people, even big watchers of US porn, who've spent time sampling Japanese Porn who don't come away with the almost idendtical phrase - "there's a lot of fucked up stuff". I'm a fan of a fair amount of Japanese porn... but I also think that most people would think my tastes tend to run to towards the "vanilla", and frankly the whole humiliation pysch is never one that's appealed a great deal to me either in porn or in real life encounters over the past 25+ years of being active. Just not my thing. On the other hand, I do like beautiful Japanese women. Anyway... I am with Daniel that there is a lot of fucked up things in Japanese porn. I'm not sure if their "industry" is more or less fucked up and sleazy relative to the US. But their content, on the mainstream level, is quite a bit more fucked up. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Wait, since when was Dorothy Stratten a porn star? I'm old enough to remember when Playboy and Penthouse *were* porn. And frankly it still fits the definition to a degree. You don't actually have to have fucking, sucking, spreads or toys to be porn. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 Wait, since when was Dorothy Stratten a porn star? I'm old enough to remember when Playboy and Penthouse *were* porn. And frankly it still fits the definition to a degree. You don't actually have to have fucking, sucking, spreads or toys to be porn. John Pornography yes. "Porn star" I've never heard used solely for someone who just posed nude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I don't believe that I called her a "porn star". Artie Mitchell wasn't a "porn star", though he was rather big in Porn. The thread is about porn. As far as her death getting mainstreem run, it got a lot... and it was as sleezy as Benoit (without a kid, but a certain kink element). It spawned several mainstream movies (tv and theaters), along with a few books. TV has changed since 1980... so it's hard to compare the coverage. I think if Benoit happened in 1980, it wouldn't have had coverage in all media that Stratten. To a degree, and this is just going by my memory, Playboy in 1980 was far stronger culturally than wrestling is in 2007. A "star" in death. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 The line you were replying to specifically said "porn stars," hence the confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 What in wrestling equals to the Porn 2girls1cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.L.L. Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 I should know better than to be surprised that this thread got really weird, but there you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Everyone in this thread should read the Fabulous Moolah bio in the latest WON. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHawk Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 That bio on Moolah was fantastic. It also makes this question more of a tossup than it already was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loss Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Just to briefly recap, and this isn't even everything mentioned, there's stories about things like Mildred Burke encouraging the girls she sent to do spot shows for promoters to sleep with the promoters so he would bring them back in the future, preferably for more money. There are stories of Burke having an affair with her stepson, and years later, her husband and stepson beating the shit out of her outside of a liquor store. Stories of Sweet Georgia Brown being raped and drugged and becoming an addict - how she was expected to answer the door when someone knocked on her hotel door and if she didn't she was beaten up. Just all kinds of really sick stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjh Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I'm not going to dispute that those stories are some really sick stuff, but I'm sure there's plenty of similarly sick stuff in the porn industry and probably far more prevalent and vile too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 There is some serious denial going on in this thread. It's like admitting wrestling is sleazy somehow is a personal affront to some dudes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Evans Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 I guess some of us don't remember the old DVDVR Sleaze Thread do we? There's no doubt Wrestling is sleazy and it's right up there with Porn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Just to briefly recap, and this isn't even everything mentioned, there's stories about things like Mildred Burke encouraging the girls she sent to do spot shows for promoters to sleep with the promoters so he would bring them back in the future, preferably for more money. There are stories of Burke having an affair with her stepson, and years later, her husband and stepson beating the shit out of her outside of a liquor store. Stories of Sweet Georgia Brown being raped and drugged and becoming an addict - how she was expected to answer the door when someone knocked on her hotel door and if she didn't she was beaten up. Just all kinds of really sick stuff.Just curious, how much of it personally involved Moolah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted November 11, 2007 Report Share Posted November 11, 2007 Sweet Georgia Brown saying she was told to answer the door naked and willing to have sex was from when she was part of Moolah's stable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 There is some serious denial going on in this thread. It's like admitting wrestling is sleazy somehow is a personal affront to some dudes. This is coming from the guy who thiks all porn stars end up running their own buisnesses? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 There is some serious denial going on in this thread. It's like admitting wrestling is sleazy somehow is a personal affront to some dudes. This is coming from the guy who thiks all porn stars end up running their own buisnesses? Right, because that's exactly what I said wasn't it? My whole point is there's people here making the case that nothing wrestling does can be worse than the most fringe, hardcore, small time porn company you can think of and I maintain that it's a lot closer than people want to admit. It comes off as denying the sleazy shit that goes on in pro wrestling or when forced to admit it, make apples and oranges comparisons with "WWE vs small time internet porn peddler" rather than "small time indy fed vs small time internet porn peddler" which would end up in a far more equal comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Schneider Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 "In terms of actual sleaze factor, you'd never hear the kind of stories about porn stars that you hear about wrestlers. Also, most of porn's big stars end up running their own companies and are comfortably well off, while most of wrestling's big stars end up offering handjobs for crack outside of state fairs." Find me a pro-wrestling defender who said something that stupid. You come off like Mike Sweetser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted November 12, 2007 Report Share Posted November 12, 2007 I was trying to make the comparison to major porn companies vs major wrestling companies, but this thread has gone so far past the point of ridiculousness that it's almost at Andy Kaufman levels of performance art. All we need is for jdw to start pontificating on how American porn stars don't work as hard as Japanese porn stars. While I'm sure Sweetser would be the most knowledgeable about the porn biz, what with his contacts in the industry and all, the bottom line is that fans of wrestling want to spend as little time as possible thinking about or being reminded of the seedier side of the business. We saw an extreme example of that with the Benoit situation, there's people still unconvinced that Chris did the murdering and I'm sure they built that fortress of denial since any other possibility would force them to deal with certain realities they aren't comfortable with. Whatever the case, this thread should either be immortalized for prosperity or nuked for the sanctity of humanity. I'm not sure which. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Posted December 8, 2007 Report Share Posted December 8, 2007 There is some serious denial going on in this thread. It's like admitting wrestling is sleazy somehow is a personal affront to some dudes. Wrestling is extremely sleazy, but porn is just so much darker it's not even funny. Or to put it another way 2girls1cup is worse than that video of Sayama torturing those trainees. People who think "illegal porn" shouldn't count in this discussion, are looking at it from a U.S. perspective. If you talk about young-boys scrubbing Baba's ass, you have to think about all the horrible pornography in that country. I imagine there's places were every sick thing imaginable is produced legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohtani's jacket Posted December 9, 2007 Report Share Posted December 9, 2007 The young boys scrubbing Baba's ass isn't as bad as it sounds. Japanese people love going to the hot springs. They take the hot springs naked and members of the same sex -- be it friends, family or even co-workers -- have seen each other naked many times. Before getting into the hot spring, they wash themselves and among Baba's generation it wasn't uncommon to get a trainee to wash their senior amongst all of the other menial shit they had to do. It's not like Baba's taking some young boy out back to feel up his balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdw Posted December 14, 2007 Report Share Posted December 14, 2007 There is some serious denial going on in this thread. It's like admitting wrestling is sleazy somehow is a personal affront to some dudes. I don't think there was any denial going on. The general gist has been: Wrestling = Sleazy Porn = Sleazy Then a debate over which one is more sleazy. Saying this: Hank Aaron = Great Willie Mays = Great Willie Mays > Hank Aaron Doesn't mean that Hank still isn't great. Wrestling is an utter shithole of an industry with very little redeeming of it other than it can be "entertaining". The same can be said of porn. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bix Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 Bumping this since we now know that wrestling has institutional banana rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kronos Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 [ this may be the wrong thread, but it's as good as any] I have been reading this thread and the ones here and elsewhere about JR and about the Benoit book. I am not saying my world is shaken, because I was aware of so much of this crap and generally willfully ignore that stuff. By buying these DVDs and books and going to shows and talking up the game and even trading matches and tapes, do we not bear some responsibility for the sleaziness and pain? Obviously, we didn't make those guys anally rape trainees with fruit. But watch the crowds at ROH (or ECW, for that matter), and you will see that so often these guys act so sleazy because it impresses the fans. How am I not looking the other way at best or encouraging this dangerous behavior at worst? I am sure it's an old topic. I seriously doubt I am going to quit following wrestling because of a few pages of forcible reminders about how sleazy this business can be. I enjoy it too much. But it's been weighing on me the last day or so. Thought I would share. And btw, to the poster who questioned the influence porn has on viewers, perhaps as opposed to wrestling? First, wrestling as rule doesn't make people more violent (I don't think, unless you count small children). But I firmly believe -- and much of this is my own experience, so take what it's worth -- that watching a lot of porn will alter how one looks at the opposite sex. If I have been watching a lot of porn lately, I find myself shifting into overdrive mentally with just about every attractive woman I see, imagining her doing those things I have been watching. It's deeply disrespectful to these women to think of them as my own playthings. And before you counter with the excellent and valid argument that all guys think of attractive women sexually, I am simply saying that it's a matter of degree. Something changes, and not for the better. I shouldn't wonder if something kind of gets rewired in the brain. But that's wandering off topic. I guess I just mean that porn -- for all the good it does viewers and even if the top stars are treated better than wrestling performers -- still tends to have a wider negative effect on viewers as well as participants. Thus, porn is sleazier. And I can keep watching wrestling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sek69 Posted May 25, 2008 Report Share Posted May 25, 2008 IMO the "isn't it our fault for watching" argument is nothing but a strawman. Wrestling would be just as popular without all the fucked-up shit, and since most fans aren't even aware of the truly bizarre happenings, you can hardly say they encourage it. There is an argument to be made that fans like the old ECW mutants and the current ROH base do encourage fucked up behavior, but luckily they are a small portion of the total wrestling audience. I do wonder why people like Dave Meltzer still accept advertising from people like RF. It makes Dave seem like a hypocrite for bemoaning the twisted state of the business while selling ad space to pedophiles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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