Thoughts on the following wrestlers: THE RETURN (11/26/07)

[Bix]

I wanna get some discussion going and this was an old favorite at NMB.

 

I'll reply with my thoughts...

 

-------------------------------------

 

Mabel/Big Daddy V/Viscera

"Iron Fist" Clive Myers

The Barbarian

Hiromichi/Samson/Ricky/Kodo Fuyuki

Tito Santana

Mr. Kennedy

A.J. Styles

[Bix]

Mabel/Big Daddy V/Viscera: Really a depressing casualty of the smarkier types having it in for tall guys, fat guys, black guys, and tall, fat, black guys, as well as having overly narrow views of what good wresting is. Really good at putting together a David vs Goliath TV match (especially the Benoit & Cena matches on Raw) where it was pretty clear that he wasn't being carried. Incredibly agile for his size, the most memorable examples being his cool spin kick in every match, his perfect bump for a Benoit German Suplex, a good F-U bump, and a ridiculous spotfest segment of his Survivor Series '94 match that featured his spin kick, a 2nd rope flying body press, a Ric Flair top rope press slam bump, and an insane Cactus Clothesline. The biggest eye-opener might be a really good submission match vs Mo on Memphis TV a few months ago.

 

"Iron Fist" Clive Myers: My personal favorite World of Sport wrestler. As good as anyone mechanically, but with a type of charisma that kept babyface matches from getting too dull, injecting comedy and likability throughout. I get the feeling that a territory with a large black population could've made something work with him as the black Billy Robinson.

 

The Barbarian: Seems to have gathered more of a hardcore fan following lately, but still underrated. Always impressively agile for his size, he eventually matured into a very solid power wrestler, getting REALLY good around '91. If he's never impressed you, check out his match vs The Big Bossman at Royal Rumble '91, where both guys are at the height of their powers. I would really love to see more of his Memphis '84 run as King Konga, which included a tag w/ Jos LeDuc vs The R&R Express, a singles match vs Buzz Sawyer, and a double dog collar match with LeDuc vs Buzz & Bret Sawyer.

 

More later...

[PeteF3]

Nelson Frazier: Mostly agreed, but he had a big, BIG problem in his MOM days with injuring people--most notably the Undertaker's cracked orbital bone. Combine that clumsiness with a silly gimmick and a main event push that he was given well before he was ready for it and that pretty much killed him as anything other than a freak show. A very good freak show when on, but that's it. All of his offense--especially his belly-to-belly suplex--has always looked positively devastating.

 

Clive Myers: It completely sucks that this guy never toured Japan because he absolutely could have torn the house down with either Tiger Mask or the UWF folks. Fabulous mat worker and bumper who also brought the HIGH-END OFFENSE~ by WOS standards. Myers is on my short list of guys to comp after I finish Mark Rocco. Speaking of things completely sucking, Myers had three televised matches in the mid-'80s against Fit Finlay and I can't find any of them listed in any TWC listings.

 

Tito Santana: Maybe the biggest revelation of the DVDVR WWF '80s Project--the Orndorff match made my top 10 as I recall, and Strike Force/Islanders was another shocker. Great, GREAT seller who knew how to lay out a match even without a boatload of offense or even brilliant technical skill. Tito gets knocked for not having charisma but it's not something I buy--he most definitely was capable of getting the "fiery Latin" image across in a big way. Oh, and he was a hell of an underrated brawler.

 

That said, is there anything from about 1991 on that's worth checking out? As Tito dropped down the cards the quality matches seemed to vanish, though I haven't seen Tito/Flair from London or the supposed Best Match in AWF History between Tito and Chris Adams.

 

The Barbarian: I pimped that Boss Man match in the Match Discussion forum awhile back--just checked out the review and it still holds up. Had a really underrated WM6 bout with the aforementioned Santana. Still, while it wasn't all his fault, I never bought Watts' attempts to make him a main eventer.

[Bix]

Don't comp. Myers before me

 

Hiromichi/Samson/Ricky/Kodo Fuyuki: I need to see more FMW, because he really made that Iron Man match w/ Hayabusa. Part of some really great tags in The Footloose.

 

Tito Santana: It hurts that people seem to see him as a poor man's Ricky Steamboat. Otherwise you summed thing up well.

 

Mr. Kennedy: One of the worst wrestlers that people think is any good. The same can be said for his speaking ability. He's bland and visibly clumsy in the ring, and his supposedly great promos are stupid e-fed shit with a lame catchphrase. Someone needs to explain the appeal to me.

 

A.J. Styles: Good to see him finally get an extended heel run, as playing heel really brings out the best aspects of his game, but I can't be bothered to watch TNA. Oh well.

[PeteF3]

OK, fine on Myers, but at least wait for one Myers/Finlay to show up. Wasn't TWC supposed to end repeats two months ago?

 

Kennedy is bland and his offense consists of nothing but punches and stomps, but he makes up for it with (speaking of e-wrestling) an absurd finisher that takes 47 minutes to set up. I'm not a Moves Mark per se but if you're going to punch and stomp your way through a match, you have to be...well, being Murdoch might be asking too much, so let's say at least Karl Kox. Take him off the juice and with that bleach-blond hairdo he's indistinguishable from your average southern territorial mid-carder/tag wrestler.

 

Who's better, Kennedy or Carlito? Carlito's probably less overrated in that he's never to my knowledge been seen as a future main eventer.

 

Sadly I don't think I've ever seen a single Fuyuki match--there's that kind of "dead zone" period between where AJPW Classics more or less stops covering things and where the season sets crop up. Wouldn't you know it, that's the time of Footloose's peak. Even Ditch only has the match where Misawa unmasks. And I don't have any FMW.

[Tim Evans]

I don't think I've ever heard of Clive Myers and I haven't seen enough Fuyuki to comment. As for the other guys.

 

Big Daddy V: He fits in good in ECW. I started watching wrestling when he ws getting his big push in 95 and wasn't that impressed with him. I remember him beating the crap out of Victoria when she was a Ho with the Godfather as Viscera. I also remember seeing him live with Dennis Knight in a handicap match vs Foley. That was awesome because I was about 16 at the time. I think he's better now that he was then but I'm sick of Kane/V.

 

Barbarian: At the time he was in WCW with Meng, I thought he was ok. Then I saw some of his Powers of Pain/WCW 92 stuff and was blown away. He was a powerhouse back then. His match with Santana at Mania was one of my favorites of Mania matches.

 

Tito Santana: I remember when I was younger and got some WWF comp tapes from the old WWF catalog seeing Tito vs Greg Valentine in a Lumberjack match. It was cool cause I never saw a match like that. I liked his stuff with Strike Force and the early IC title days. I've seen very little of his Mid-South stuff though.

 

Kennedy: I was a fan of his until about June of this year. I noticed when he's not in there with guys that can carry him, He downright sucks. His mic work is ok but since Santino Heel came on board, he's been exposed. His promo tonight on HBK was decent but in the ring, He just is flat out boring. Should have never left Smackdown.

 

AJ Styles: I think right now he's at the best he's ever been. Sure he had great matches in the X division but he was just so bland. Now that he's with Tomko and Christian, he's really shined. Reminds me of Brian Christopher but much better.

[Guest onlxn]

Kennedy's a really bad wrestler -- no non-Khali WWE worker bumps as gingerly as he does -- and maybe a little overrated on the mic (was he channeling Savage tonight? he had a bizarre accent flicker in and out). Still, I get why they see something in him. He carries himself like a big deal, more effectively so than most guys on the roster, and he has lots of good little moments. I think he'll indeed be a serviceable main eventer for them someday, though it's hard to see him getting good in the ring this late in his career.

 

BDV is dope. He could maybe use a shirt, as the "ewww, titz" reaction from some of the rubes doesn't really help his heat. Get him away from Kane, pleez.

 

Thing about the Barbarian is, even in his throwaway Nitro/Thunder appearances, he was still pretty awesome. Stiffer than most, lots of energy, strong character work. Really good worker.

 

Like Bix, I'm guessing heel AJ is a lot of fun, but I ain't gonna tune in to find out. I think he's a pretty good wrestler, all told. One of those guys who comes off better live than on tape, as his spectacular spots and intensity make up for his iffier moments.

[Jingus]

Sir King Big Mabel Viscera: as previously mentioned, astonishingly agile for a guy his size. I can't think of any other super-heavyweights right now who can move like that. Hell, the only ones who even come close were Vader, Paul Wight, and Yokozuna when they were all young, relatively skinny, and in their primes, and I still think none of them were as fast as Viscera is when he really feels like moving. Also, considering how long he's been wrestling, it's odd that he seems to be in better shape now than he was during his big push ten years ago. He does good work with a variety of opponents, but he does seem to be one of those big hosses who brainlocks when facing another big hoss, thus the stinky matches with Kane recently. Also, let's not forget his bizarrely entertaining run as the World's Largest Love Machine. The only major negative I can think of is that I've heard from a few workers that he can be painfully stiff at times, and working him isn't always a pleasant experience.

 

Kennedy: I just never watched Smackdown much over the past few years, largely because the indy show I worked was on Friday nights, so I just got in the habit of reading the spoilers and not seeing the shows; I say that to explain that I simply haven't seen a lot of Kennedy's earlier run with the company. From what I remember at the time, he seemed like a perfectly competent wrestler. I too was confused why the 'net was so markishly in love with his mic work, but I didn't hate it either, he seemed competent. I'd have to go back and watch it again to be sure, but I remember his match at the Rumble this year being a case of him putting an at-his-worst Batista on his back and carrying him to a passable match. But ever since he came back from the injury, he's looked awfully inconsistent, just excruciatingly bad some nights, and plain mediocre on others. I agree with Tim that Kennedy has this weird tendency where he somehow has crappier matches with better opponents, I have no idea how that happens, but it seems to be the case.

 

AJ Styles: one of the most amazing all-around athletes ever. I know at least a couple of people who generally hate wrestling, but have seen Styles and were utterly blown away by him. I've watched him wrestle live since around 2001, and it's been fun to watch him progress. Back then, he was much more a Southern-style worker who incorporated more or less highspots into the match depending on who his opponent was. If it's Jason Cross, warn air traffic control; if it's Rick Michaels, they'll do a bunch of old-fashioned Georgia stuff; if it's Prince Justice (Abyss), get out your HBK/Big Hoss tapes from '96 and play along at home. When he went to TNA and got into the X Division, he started doing the massive highspot dive-fests, trying to do J-Crown Finals stuff every night. He busted out more MOVES~!, but he really got used to the cruiserweight groove, and sometimes seemed lost when he was stuck in the heavyweight matches with guys like Raven. On the indies he often seemed to do more strong-stylish stuff, with lots of stiff kicks and forearms, with the occasional flying move thrown in to remind you who you're watching. I didn't keep up with TNA much after they moved to Orlando, but I've seen some of his recent stuff tagging with Tomko and it's almost like he went back to his roots. In fact, even though they're totally different stylistically, he kinda reminds me of how Rob Van Dam changed when he finally made the transition to working WWE-style around 2002, doing less of the eye-popping spotty stuff he was known for and working a somewhat more traditional American style.

[goodhelmet]

The Barbarian: I pimped that Boss Man match in the Match Discussion forum awhile back--just checked out the review and it still holds up. Had a really underrated WM6 bout with the aforementioned Santana. Still, while it wasn't all his fault, I never bought Watts' attempts to make him a main eventer.

I assume you are talking about Konga the Barbarian (partner to the Warlord, member of Paul Jones Army) but the Barbarian who received the push in Mid South was Nord the Barbarian.

[Phil Schneider]

I think he means Watts pushing Barbarian as a main event guy against Simmons in WCW, which totally ruled BTW

[tomk]

The biggest eye-opener might be a really good submission match vs Mo on Memphis TV a few months ago.

Ummm. Is this the match from 2004...or did they have a rematch a couple of months ago?

[Dan]

Kennedy is great, and is an obvious future star. There room for improvement in his ring work, but that will come.

[S.L.L.]

Mabel/Big Daddy V/Viscera: I've been digging him lately. Kinda dig that they've given him little trappings of one One Man Gang, Vader, and Abdullah to try and create the ultimate fat guy wrestler. It's been a long time since I've seen his stuff from before his current run. I was checking Wikipedia, because I wanted to make a comment about how well he's doing this late in his career, but it turns out he's only 35. Not that that's so out there. There are plenty of guys who seem like they've been around forever but are actually still pretty young because they hit it big early in their careers (Sean Waltman immediately jumps to mind). Still, that means he was only 22 when he started showing up on my TV regularly, and he's been there pretty consistently since then. When Bix and others say he was good during that time, I'm inclined to believe them. That said, I kinda wonder why this appreciation is such a recent development. With regards to the internet's bias against tall/fat/black guys, I kinda think none of those are as strong as we often make them out to be. TomK made these points a while back to a particularly dense fellow on DVDVR:

 

Really the nineties was the era where smarks didn't worship heavyweight brawers and power wreslters? The smark community hated Vader, Bigalow, Steve Williams, the Miracle Violence Connection, and the Steiners? This was some version of the nineties where smarks didn't pimp Cactus Jack? In this alternative dimension did smarks not pimp the Dangerous Alliance or were the majority of them short enough that they act as defacto cruisers? You remember a nineties where people weren't talking about AL Japan heavyweight matches as being the peak of what wrestling was?

The IWC ridicluosly liked some goofy heavyweights who were " busting [their] ass and using new moves."

 

People spent the whole decade wanting Mike Awesome to go to either WWF or All Japan. People seriously fantasy booked him with title runs in both places. There was a point where the talking point "Rick Titan's potential superstar career is going to be ruined by being put in this stupid fake Razor Ramon gimmick".

I know there aren't any blacks listed in there, but Ahmed Johnson got a lot of support from the smark community going into his WWF run, though that faded over time.

 

I think if there's a bias working against 90's Mabel/Viscera, it's anti-WWF. He hadn't been working very long when he got signed to the WWF, and I think being some guy who didn't "pay his dues" or "bust his ass for the boys in the back" who got hired by Vince for being a big fat dude got certain people's panties in a bunch more than anything. Kinda get the feeling that if he, say, got the "Shockmaster" gimmick instead of Ottman and feuded with Vader, or if he was shipped off to Japan to be a Misawa opponent or an Onita opponent, people might have had a better opinion of him, even if he jumped to the WWF later.

 

"Iron Fist" Clive Myers The only match of seen of his was against a 14-year old Davey Boy Smith, and he was awesome. I need to see the matches with Steve Grey at some point.

 

The Barbarian

Hiromichi/Samson/Ricky/Kodo Fuyuki

Tito Santana

I missed Barby's and Tito's best stuff, and what I've seen of Fuyuki leaves no real impression.

 

Mr. Kennedy Not nearly as down on him as a lot of people are, but he isn't great, either. I've seen him in enough matches that I've really enjoyed that I can't honestly call him bad, but as charismatic as he is, he just doesn't feel special to me in any way. He'll likely be a big star someday, but I don't really care much about him.

 

A.J. Styles I'd like to join others in this thread in assuming that AJ's current heel run is good, but the whole reason I don't watch TNA is because even when Russo gets something right, he gets it wrong, and I doubt AJ's heel run is any different. Still, I feel that he has proven capable of being a great wrestler over the years, and probably still is.

[Jingus]

That said, I kinda wonder why this appreciation is such a recent development.

Probably a lot of that was resentment lingering from his King of the Ring win. That was one horrible show, with godawful booking that eliminated all the big stars in the first round and created a lot of dull matches that nobody wanted to see. It especially didn't help that the show was in front of a downright hostile crowd in Philly; the Hat Guy and his buddies were not impressed with the new King Mabel. And then V went on to quite possibly steal the Worst Summerslam Main Event Ever title from the previous year's Undertaker/Underfaker fiasco in a spectacularly bad match with Diesel. Combining all that with how Vince was still pushing giant fat guys well into the modern workrate era and the hideous "gangsta wearing a purple garbage bag" gimmick, it's not hard to see why the smarts would've hated him.

[kjh]

Part of the bias working against Big Daddy V is due to Meltzer who still joshes about what a bad, limited worker he is.

[sek69]

I think part of the reason Kennedy got so much love (and still does to some extent) is that he was far and away the best thing in OVW when he was there. However time has shown that was more a reflection on how shitty the rest of the OVW roster was at that time. When Kennedy was on the main roster surrounded by people who could hold their end of the bargain, he was exposed as merely decent-to-good instead of OMG AWSUM~!

[Al]

I think it's Kennedy's character that viewers love. His bit standing on a turnbuckle with the microphone and the house lights down is quite a nice visual.

[Guest *FH*]

Kennedy: How many times in wrestling have we seen someone pushed with "he's charismatic" as his sole gimmick? I'm trying to come up with names and I'm drawing a blank. It's doubly funny regarding Kennedy, who really isn't very charismatic at all. It's almost a variation on the "great technician" gimmick. Tell people that Kennedy is a great talker and that he's charismatic, have him cut promos that aren't horrible, but are nothing special, and the fans will believe the gimmick. Oh well, I guess I can't begrudge WWE and Kennedy for pulling it off, no more than I can begrudge any gimmick like this that people eat up and believe despite clear evidence to the contrary. It's business. It's a work and god bless them for pulling it off in 2007.

 

Anyway, Kennedy is pretty horrible. Weak looking chin, godawful tattoos, super bland promos, and god DAMN he's bad in the ring. When a guy blows 2-3 spots and then AUDIBLY apologizes to the guy he's working with on Raw, he is quite literally not ready for prime time.

[tomk]

Kennedy is great, and is an obvious future star. There room for improvement in his ring work, but that will come.

My impression is that he's around Rey or Jeff Hardy's age. He's been wrestling for a while. While I'm a guy who believes that guys can suddenly figure it all out at any point in their career and it's quite possible that tommorow Enrique Vera will wrestle a great hair v hair match. and there are lots of guys who started their wrestling careers late in life whose work I've enjoyed: DDP, MVP, Batista, etc. But I don't see any reason to pretend that Ken Kennedy is some young green kid with years ahead of him to develop.

 

I know there aren't any blacks listed in there, but Ahmed Johnson got a lot of support from the smark community going into his WWF run, though that faded over time.

Yeah there aren't alot of black guys. People like their blacks athletic. Hell Meltzer likes all his wrestlers athletic.

I don't want to be doing the opposite and making a fetish out of fattness, but not like Yokozuna was getting anywhere near the praise he deserved for his work either.

 

I think if there's a bias working against 90's Mabel/Viscera, it's anti-WWF. He hadn't been working very long when he got signed to the WWF, and I think being some guy who didn't "pay his dues" or "bust his ass for the boys in the back" who got hired by Vince for being a big fat dude got certain people's panties in a bunch more than anything

Weren't he and Mo originally trained by Gene anderson? Or was that just Mo? Cause Gene Anderson should get old school paying dues respect.

 

It should also be said for whatever anti-WWF bias there is, alot of it is merited. Watch 24/7 The WWF was filled with talented guys who were in sucky matches. I liked Men on a Mission but fuck is MOM v Quebecers a dissapointing series.

 

Kinda get the feeling that if he, say, got the "Shockmaster" gimmick instead of Ottman and feuded with Vader, or if he was shipped off to Japan to be a Misawa opponent or an Onita opponent, people might have had a better opinion of him, even if he jumped to the WWF later.

This isn't an example of a bias this is WWF sucking. The WWE style is built on being upset that One Man Gang doesn't work enough like Big John Studd.They couldn't do anything with Vader. VADER~! My guess is someone will eventually put together a DVD of the three weeks that Bill Watts was booking the WWF and Viscera got his big push and then he left and no one understood how to lay out matches with a strong heel for the actual PPVS. And then people will discuss Mabel as the big what if? But the point is that the WWF didn't know how to book Vader, expecting them to have been able to make the most out of Mabel is silly.

[S.L.L.]

This isn't an example of a bias this is WWF sucking. The WWE style is built on being upset that One Man Gang doesn't work enough like Big John Studd.They couldn't do anything with Vader. VADER~! My guess is someone will eventually put together a DVD of the three weeks that Bill Watts was booking the WWF and Viscera got his big push and then he left and no one understood how to lay out matches with a strong heel for the actual PPVS. And then people will discuss Mabel as the big what if? But the point is that the WWF didn't know how to book Vader, expecting them to have been able to make the most out of Mabel is silly.

I'm not necessarily saying it wasn't warranted, just saying that was the attitude. My main question is why, if Frazier was always this good, he's only now getting praise for his work then. I assume it's because of his strong WWF association, which is certainly warranted to some extent, but if he's getting praise now for work then, he couldn't always have been booked into crappy matches. I don't doubt that he did good stuff in Memphis, but was it that good to make up for a bad WWF run, or was his WWF run not so bad? I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.

 

EDIT: Also, somebody really should put together a DVD of the three weeks that Watts was booking the WWF, because even as a dopey kid who didn't know Watts from Adam, I could tell that was some good fuckin' TV.

[tomk]

My main question is why, if Frazier was always this good, he's only now getting praise for his work then. I assume it's because of his strong WWF association, which is certainly warranted to some extent, but if he's getting praise now for work then, he couldn't always have been booked into crappy matches. I don't doubt that he did good stuff in Memphis, but was it that good to make up for a bad WWF run, or was his WWF run not so bad? I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.

I don't know if anyone is saying that Viscera was good from jumpstreet. I doubt you'll find anyone who will tell you that he was the better worker in MOM... And I don't think that was just people popping for Mo saults.

[S.L.L.]

My main question is why, if Frazier was always this good, he's only now getting praise for his work then. I assume it's because of his strong WWF association, which is certainly warranted to some extent, but if he's getting praise now for work then, he couldn't always have been booked into crappy matches. I don't doubt that he did good stuff in Memphis, but was it that good to make up for a bad WWF run, or was his WWF run not so bad? I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.

I don't know if anyone is saying that Viscera was good from jumpstreet. I doubt you'll find anyone who will tell you that he was the better worker in MOM... And I don't think that was just people popping for Mo saults.

 

I think I had my wires crossed. Bix wrote "Really a depressing casualty of the smarkier types having it in for tall guys, fat guys, black guys, and tall, fat, black guys, as well as having overly narrow views of what good wresting is", and well, that doesn't specifically mean he was always good, but that's how I read it for whatever reason. The mention of his Survivor Series '94 match seemed to suggest that, but I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth.

[Bix]

The biggest eye-opener might be a really good submission match vs Mo on Memphis TV a few months ago.

Ummm. Is this the match from 2004...or did they have a rematch a couple of months ago?

 

2004.

[Bix]

My main question is why, if Frazier was always this good, he's only now getting praise for his work then. I assume it's because of his strong WWF association, which is certainly warranted to some extent, but if he's getting praise now for work then, he couldn't always have been booked into crappy matches. I don't doubt that he did good stuff in Memphis, but was it that good to make up for a bad WWF run, or was his WWF run not so bad? I'm not sure I'm following the logic here.

I don't know if anyone is saying that Viscera was good from jumpstreet. I doubt you'll find anyone who will tell you that he was the better worker in MOM... And I don't think that was just people popping for Mo saults.

 

I think I had my wires crossed. Bix wrote "Really a depressing casualty of the smarkier types having it in for tall guys, fat guys, black guys, and tall, fat, black guys, as well as having overly narrow views of what good wresting is", and well, that doesn't specifically mean he was always good, but that's how I read it for whatever reason. The mention of his Survivor Series '94 match seemed to suggest that, but I wouldn't want to put words in his mouth.

 

I meant that at the very least, he was doing really cool stuff back then.

[tomk]

If I were the kind of person who put together "Evolution of Nelson Frazier Jr." comps (which I'm not, I've got enough other crazy projects in the works), my guess is you'd want to look to see if their were any Viscera/Mideon tag matches on syndi shows ( which I think would be Heat at that point). I don't think he was tagging with Mideon during the shotgun period and really that team was deep in Russo world so not much chance of getting a match where midcarder would get to showcase much outside of the syndi show and even there... but who knows there might be a Mideon/Vis v Kevin Quinn/Brian Christopher match that got some time out there .