Why Nominations? Did They Work?

[Hollinger.]

I tend to count Pancrase (and MMA in general) where it adds to a pro wrestlers case, but it’s not something that I count against them. There’s really not all that many places where it’s all that applicable… Suzuki, Funaki, Sakuraba, Shamrock, Severn if you really want to try to make a case for him. I see MMA as a point in favor for a Yuji Nagata, even if he got his shit rocked, just because he wore it like a champ and fought a couple killers. But something like the inverse, trying to make a case for a Mark Coleman or Kevin Randleman based on their MMA careers and some cameos in wrestling, I wouldn’t do. 

[Control21]

4 minutes ago, Hollinger. said:

I tend to count Pancrase (and MMA in general) where it adds to a pro wrestlers case, but it’s not something that I count against them. There’s really not all that many places where it’s all that applicable… Suzuki, Funaki, Sakuraba, Shamrock, Severn if you really want to try to make a case for him. I see MMA as a point in favor for a Yuji Nagata, even if he got his shit rocked, just because he wore it like a champ and fought a couple killers. But something like the inverse, trying to make a case for a Mark Coleman or Kevin Randleman based on their MMA careers and some cameos in wrestling, I wouldn’t do. 

Yeah, that's basically where I am too. 

[Mantaur Rodeo Clown]

I've read through this thread and still have no clear conception of what the benefits to the nomination process are, outside of gatekeeping. Judging from the activity on most nomination threads as Ell McKell has mentioned, it hasn't spurred discussion. I think we need to also be realistic about how big a barrier of entry it is to the discussion and to the project, particularly with how far in the future 2036 will be. The nomination process would have to be significantly improved from now. I also don't think we should be punishing people who only found out about the project when voting got underway, as it is natural that is the exact moment it would break through to the public. Nobody is going to be going on twitter saying "Here my GWE poll for 2036, remember voting opens seven years from now guys!"

Finally, the point that rankles me most is when I've read "well it's a non-issue, because [this wrestler who was not nominated] barely got any votes at all". That's a strange attitude to have, given there may well have been lots of voters who simply followed the rules and only voted for those who were nominated, even if they really liked BxB Hulk or Taz or whoever. You're essentially punishing people who can read instructions. 

[Matt D]

9 hours ago, Hollinger. said:

I tend to count Pancrase (and MMA in general) where it adds to a pro wrestlers case, but it’s not something that I count against them.

I could see a logic where a wrestler like Ken Shamrock was able to channel certain instincts and tropes and expertise from actually doing MMA into his pro wrestling. Likewise, leveraging a rep/aura into the artistic choices/presentation one makes in the fictional art of pro wrestling. Or, you know, if you're just focused on the supposed worked Pancrase fights and not legitimate MMA.

That makes sense to me. But if you're not talking about that (and I don't think you are), you guys have completely lost me to the point of near-bafflement.

It'd be like saying Jack Kirby should be ranked higher in a list of greatest comic writers/artists of all time because he served in World War II and also occasionally drew war comics. Not because how being in the war inspired and shaped him or how it gave him perspective or images to draw from. But simply because he was in the war and also happened to draw war comics.

[El McKell]

I think where your Jack Kirby analogy falls down is it is clear that drawing war comics and being in a war are different things. The case Control is trying to make is that matches in Pancrase, regardless of whether they are worked or shoots, are pro-wrestling matches.

[Matt D]

5 minutes ago, El McKell said:

I think where your Jack Kirby analogy falls down is it is clear that drawing war comics and being in a war are different things. The case Control is trying to make is that matches in Pancrase, regardless of whether they are worked or shoots, are pro-wrestling matches.

But one is fiction and one is non-fiction. It's a hard analogy because it's so bonkers. Ok, how about...it's like saying... the basketball players in the movie Space Jam are obviously great actors in the movie Space Jam because they're really good basketball players. 

[Control21]

19 minutes ago, Matt D said:

But one is fiction and one is non-fiction. It's a hard analogy because it's so bonkers. Ok, how about...it's like saying... the basketball players in the movie Space Jam are obviously great actors in the movie Space Jam because they're really good basketball players. 

Think about it like...two branches of the same religion or something. 

[Control21]

36 minutes ago, Matt D said:

I could see a logic where a wrestler like Ken Shamrock was able to channel certain instincts and tropes and expertise from actually doing MMA into his pro wrestling. Likewise, leveraging a rep/aura into the artistic choices/presentation one makes in the fictional art of pro wrestling. Or, you know, if you're just focused on the supposed worked Pancrase fights and not legitimate MMA.

That makes sense to me. But if you're not talking about that (and I don't think you are), you guys have completely lost me to the point of near-bafflement.

It'd be like saying Jack Kirby should be ranked higher in a list of greatest comic writers/artists of all time because he served in World War II and also occasionally drew war comics. Not because how being in the war inspired and shaped him or how it gave him perspective or images to draw from. But simply because he was in the war and also happened to draw war comics.

I think the key distinction is that Pancrase is not purely MMA. They weren't trying to do what UFC or Pride was trying to accomplish. The idea was to have pro wrestling matches without predetermined finishes....which is what pro wrestling essentially evolved from. The earliest stages of wrestling history was pretty much two catch as catch can guys having a match and no one knew who was going to win beforehand 

[Matt D]

2 minutes ago, Control21 said:

Think about it like...two branches of the same religion or something. 

The things I value in pro wrestling are so different from what I’d value in MMA that I’m sticking with Space Jam.

I read a biography of Edward I this year. That’s entirely different from me reading Wolf Hall.

[Matt D]

Just now, Control21 said:

I think the key distinction is that Pancrase is not purely MMA. They weren't trying to do what UFC or Pride was trying to accomplish. The idea was to have pro wrestling matches without predetermined finishes....which is what pro wrestling essentially evolved from. The earliest stages of wrestling history was pretty much two catch as catch can guys having a match and no one knew who was going to win beforehand 

Hollinger’s “(or MMA)” threw me more.

[Control21]

Just now, Matt D said:

The things I value in pro wrestling are so different from what I’d value in MMA that I’m sticking with Space Jam.

I read a biography of Edward I this year. That’s entirely different from me reading Wolf Hall.

One branch of Christianity doesn't believe in the trinity, but the other one does. Yet, they both believe in the same deity. Does that make sense? 

[Matt D]

11 minutes ago, Control21 said:

One branch of Christianity doesn't believe in the trinity, but the other one does. Yet, they both believe in the same deity. Does that make sense? 

Oh I get what you're saying, but in my analogy, one's a religion and the other is the TV show The Righteous Gemstones or maybe the novel Name of the Rose.

[Hollinger.]

36 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Hollinger’s “(or MMA)” threw me more.

By that I just mean I'll consider stuff like PRIDE fights for Takada or Otsuka or whatever pro wrestler as part of their cases. Definitely not considering the whole of MMA in something like this. If a guy has a case as a wrestler already, basically. 

[Matt D]

10 minutes ago, Hollinger. said:

By that I just mean I'll consider stuff like PRIDE fights for Takada or Otsuka or whatever pro wrestler as part of their cases. Definitely not considering the whole of MMA in something like this. If a guy has a case as a wrestler already, basically. 

If you're not going with just in-ring pro wrestling, but some sort of total package, I can see it, like Rick Rude on Regis and Kathy Lee. He's still performing. Maybe he's telling a story. But it doesn't count as "footage" to me.

 

[Hollinger.]

Just now, Matt D said:

If you're not going with just in-ring pro wrestling, but some sort of total package, I can see it, like Rick Rude on Regis and Kathy Lee. He's still performing. Maybe he's telling a story. But it doesn't count as "footage" to me.

 

I also don't know that it had any kind of actual impact on my ballot. I voted for Funaki, Suzuki and Sakuraba but it's not like their MMA work had much of a positive impact. Maybe slightly more with Sakuraba.

[Control21]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

Oh I get what you're saying, but in my analogy, one's a religion and the other is the TV show The Righteous Gemstones or maybe the novel Name of the Rose.

You could have Michael Shaara's The Killer Angels, which is generally considered a great work of modern American fiction. You could also have Allen Guelzo's Gettysburg, which is a highly praised modern non-fiction account of the battle of Gettysburg. Both cover the same topic and could be considered works of art in their own right. In this sense, Pancrase could be considered a work if pro wrestling art even if it is mostly real. I think in this analogy, UFC would be something like a historian going out to the gun range to test out the account of a Union sniper using a certain rifle to take out a Confederate officer

 

[Troyvang]

It’s been said, but I’ll repeat it. The nominations are good, because they are a good list to start from. I had legitimately not seen 80% of the wrestlers on my list before starting to watch for gwe. If not for the list of nominees, my list would have been VERY different. It expanded my scope of who was importantly enough to even consider. He didn’t make my list, but I got to see a couple of really good Chase Steven’s matches that I wouldn’t have because “he’s just the blonde Natural,” solely because he got a nomination.

[Johnny Sorrow]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

I could see a logic where a wrestler like Ken Shamrock was able to channel certain instincts and tropes and expertise from actually doing MMA into his pro wrestling. Likewise, leveraging a rep/aura into the artistic choices/presentation one makes in the fictional art of pro wrestling. Or, you know, if you're just focused on the supposed worked Pancrase fights and not legitimate MMA.

That makes sense to me. But if you're not talking about that (and I don't think you are), you guys have completely lost me to the point of near-bafflement.

It'd be like saying Jack Kirby should be ranked higher in a list of greatest comic writers/artists of all time because he served in World War II and also occasionally drew war comics. Not because how being in the war inspired and shaped him or how it gave him perspective or images to draw from. But simply because he was in the war and also happened to draw war comics.

There's a really good French documentary called "Kirby At War" by the way. 

[club]

The final list is lovely and a massive thanks to Grimmas and everyone involved. That said, the real purpose of the project is to discuss what we love and discover new stuff. I don't think Frank Shamrock is a top 100 wrestler of all time. Ditto Ted DiBiase, Yuki Ishikawa, Lulu Pencil and Buddy Rose, but I've loved hearing people's views on why they do. I don't see how not having nominations threads would help this.

Surely we want to focus on ways to encourage participation in the discussion process rather than the voting.

[Reel]

2 things on the topics of the day:

1) So a friend of mine has watched all the Pancrase footage, he does video recaps on YouTube, Gentleman’s Combatives. His estimation, and he admits this number may be low, is that there are 9 works in the first 3 years of Pancrase. Now there are fights where one guy wasn’t planning on winning, but just 9 matches where both guys went out there not trying to win. 
 

2) Nominations are gate keeping, yes. You are keeping people who don’t fit the criteria out. Frankly if you’ve only known about GWE for a few months, I’m not sure not being able to vote for literally whoever you want is a bad thing in the slightest. If you’re a part of the process and invested, you can get your people on the ballot, otherwise your beholden to someone else, that’s a feature not a bug.

[Hollinger.]

Yeah, I would categorize more of the fights as guys playing with their food long enough to look competitive, and to me that's still looking to build an entertaining match in a similar vein to pro wrestling. I don't think we know enough about the inner workings to differentiate from RINGS in any meaningful way as both transitioned further into a more fully shoot style after developing enough fighters to be able to do so. 

[Death From Above]

The idea there was any sort of meaningful, useful gatekeeping involved when there are multiple people that have been forum regulars here since Bush was president that openly admit they basically haven't watched wrestling in 20 years and they still voted anyway is laughable. Forums keep on Foruming. If anything it's an immense net positive that the GWE broke containment enough to keep that crowd's influence to a minimum.

[Jetlag]

If we're gonna include MMA fights as a basis for rating, Kazushi Sakuraba should be mandatory in everyones top 10 just for the time he tried to pull Royce Gracies pants off.

[El-P]

6 hours ago, Death From Above said:

The idea there was any sort of meaningful, useful gatekeeping involved when there are multiple people that have been forum regulars here since Bush was president that openly admit they basically haven't watched wrestling in 20 years and they still voted anyway is laughable. Forums keep on Foruming. If anything it's an immense net positive that the GWE broke containment enough to keep that crowd's influence to a minimum.

This. (and really, considering some of the results, again I think the top 100 is actually mostly quite cool, I think this crowd had way too much influence still)