Somebody please explain this Alvarez talking point to me

[jdw]

You have to remember Alvarez started his sheet, in what, 1995 or so, when he was about 20 years old.

Wow... I didn't think Super Chico was 20 when he started the Fig-4. Christ, didn't even think he was 32 now. Why do I think he started the sheet when he was 15-16 like Keller?

 

 

John

[floyd]

Everyone got their opinion but I just can't seen the first half of 2007 being the BEST in-ring action of any company. Even just going by American TV which he had access too, I thought WCW was a kickass show in late 89 with the Flair, Muta, Steamboat, Luger and Funk. And 1992 when the Dangerous Allience was running wild. maybe he didn't like all the job matches or something.

 

I don't think so. I think he probably legitimately believes that it is the greatest wrestling he has ever seen. The same way people insist that HBK-Angle from Wrestlemania was a ****+ classic.

Kinda off topic but yeah I gotta agree with that. It's a great match and all but I'm amazed at the worship it's gotten. I think just the aura and word-of-mouth it got right it happened knocked it up to classic match-of-the-decade contender. Just as an example, I ran a Top 100 greatest matches ever on another forum about a year ago and it ended up #2 overall.

[Resident Evil]

Everyone got their opinion but I just can't seen the first half of 2007 being the BEST in-ring action of any company. Even just going by American TV which he had access too, I thought WCW was a kickass show in late 89 with the Flair, Muta, Steamboat, Luger and Funk. And 1992 when the Dangerous Allience was running wild. maybe he didn't like all the job matches or something.

 

I don't think so. I think he probably legitimately believes that it is the greatest wrestling he has ever seen. The same way people insist that HBK-Angle from Wrestlemania was a ****+ classic.

Kinda off topic but yeah I gotta agree with that. It's a great match and all but I'm amazed at the worship it's gotten. I think just the aura and word-of-mouth it got right it happened knocked it up to classic match-of-the-decade contender. Just as an example, I ran a Top 100 greatest matches ever on another forum about a year ago and it ended up #2 overall.

 

 

Would you have a link to that list please? I'd like to see it. Thanks.

[Guest STAN]

I wonder if Shawn pays off the dirtsheet writers or something. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[jdw]

For Dave, he's the successor of his favorite wrestler of all-time - Ric Flair. Just about any bumping heel got positives from Dave, be it young Austin, young Trip, Hennig, etc.

 

For Keller, Shawn *is* his Flair. He watched him "step up" in the AWA, then become "the man" in the WWF. Sort of a vested interest that his era was relevant in comp to Flair, who he never was as fond of as the prior generation of hardcores.

 

For Bryan... who knows. Perhaps include him in the group of people who were "inspired to get into wrestling" because of Shawn.

 

John

[WrestlingPower]

I just did the math based on Alvarez being 32. I'm not positive when he started F4W but I think it was around 95. It was an offspring of whatever newsletter he did for his YWF backyard fed.

 

I'm thinking Alvarez may not have even seen the 1989 while it was going on. He said he first saw wrestling around the time of that Hogan/Warrior vs. Earthquake/Dino Bravo SNME. That was like 1990 right?

[Guest STAN]

For Dave, he's the successor of his favorite wrestler of all-time - Ric Flair. Just about any bumping heel got positives from Dave, be it young Austin, young Trip, Hennig, etc.

 

For Keller, Shawn *is* his Flair. He watched him "step up" in the AWA, then become "the man" in the WWF. Sort of a vested interest that his era was relevant in comp to Flair, who he never was as fond of as the prior generation of hardcores.

 

For Bryan... who knows. Perhaps include him in the group of people who were "inspired to get into wrestling" because of Shawn.

 

John

I understand but I was reading the old RSPW stuff from 1990 and Herb Kunze said something along the lines of "Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels are the best 2 americanworkers". So was this just Kunz's opinion or was Meltzer already on that bus then? (I didn't get the web til 96)

[Loss]

I'm in the camp where I tend to think people overrate Michaels now, but as far as criticism of him during his tag run or singles run pre-1998, I don't get it at all. I don't think he was Flair-level great, but I still think he was pretty awesome and had some terrific matches. Best in the world, or even the US at any point? No, not at all. But he was clearly among the best in his company for about 10 years. It all depends on what standard you're holding him to.

[floyd]

I wonder if Shawn pays off the dirtsheet writers or something. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

I know from listening to Figure Four Daily shows that Alverez loves Michaels big time. He constantly sneeks in about HBK being the one of greatest of all time from time to time, usually comparing his career to someone else.

 

Would you have a link to that list please? I'd like to see it. Thanks.

Here ya go!:

 

http://floydscabana.blogspot.com/2008/01/p...f-all-time.html

 

more listmania, PWT's Top 100 Wrestlers:

 

http://floydscabana.blogspot.com/2008/01/p...f-all-time.html

[smkelly]

That was pretty funny Floyd. Especially when it got to Bret Hart.

[Phil Schneider]

Jesus that list of best matches is embarrassing

[Jingus]

It's fairly predictable if you look at it a certain way. Specifically: "How Would Scott Keith Vote?" A pretty standard list from semi-casual smarks who've spent most of their lives watching the WWF.

[smkelly]

No matter who made it, putting Taker/Kane from WM14 above Los Gringos Locos/Octagon/Santo Hairs vs. Mask automatically disqulifies it, and makes it null and void.

[Strummer]

I understand but I was reading the old RSPW stuff from 1990 and Herb Kunze said something along the lines of "Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels are the best 2 americanworkers". So was this just Kunz's opinion or was Meltzer already on that bus then? (I didn't get the web til 96)

Yes, Herb had a very high opinion of Shawn's work

 

It always suprised me that Herb was such a proponent of his work with Shawn's obvious problems with selling. IIRC, Herb said he was a better worker than Bret (who Herb said tricked fans into thinking he was a great worker).

 

Herb's old "Tidbits" columns are both maddening and gleefully entertaining at the same time.

 

Herb said some weird things but I couldn't stop reading

[ohtani's jacket]

Herb said some weird things but I couldn't stop reading

Ha, tell me about it. It used to drive me crazy when he was late with them.

[Loss]

http://floydscabana.blogspot.com/2008/01/p...f-all-time.html

 

more listmania, PWT's Top 100 Wrestlers:

 

http://floydscabana.blogspot.com/2008/01/p...f-all-time.html

Do you remember that year at the VMAs did that Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen did that self-parody before presenting some award about how The Bodyguard was the greatest movie of all time? Well, these links remind me of that.

[jdw]

I understand but I was reading the old RSPW stuff from 1990 and Herb Kunze said something along the lines of "Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels are the best 2 americanworkers". So was this just Kunz's opinion or was Meltzer already on that bus then? (I didn't get the web til 96)

Yes, Herb had a very high opinion of Shawn's work

 

It always suprised me that Herb was such a proponent of his work with Shawn's obvious problems with selling. IIRC, Herb said he was a better worker than Bret (who Herb said tricked fans into thinking he was a great worker).

 

Herb's old "Tidbits" columns are both maddening and gleefully entertaining at the same time.

 

Herb said some weird things but I couldn't stop reading

 

On the questio - Dave was on Shawn's cock strongly all the way back to 1990, and liked him a good deal before that.

 

Herb was strongly influenced by Dave. That would be saying it very lightly. I'm sure there's something where Herb took a different viewpoint from Dave... but I can't remember it. Perhaps Herb was more critical of ECW than Dave was. But people need to remember the whole point of The Lariat as an ECW House Organ was that Meltzer wasn't giving enough love to the greatness of ECW. So Schemer was more than willing to.

 

 

John

[Al]

No matter who made it, putting Taker/Kane from WM14 above Los Gringos Locos/Octagon/Santo Hairs vs. Mask automatically disqulifies it, and makes it null and void.

Obviously. But it's worth remembering that your casual wrestling fan only generally sees what airs nationally on U.S. television. For fans of my generation, that means WWF, WCW, TNA and ECW, with some random stuff like Global thrown in. The only way to see Japanese or Mexican wrestling is to specifically seek it out. Not everyone really has the time, resources, or interest to do that.

 

And hey, if they want to go ahead and do a great matches poll anyway, more power to them. It's awfully boring when only the elite can make fun lists.

[BO1]

Nothing personal Floyd, but those lists are quite sad. Thing is, most of the internet is infested with those, in all kinds of different subjects(cinema, music, etc...) so you just have to filter(or at least not think about them too much). I mean, even the DVDR lists don't come around too perfect once they're done.

 

Subjectivity

[Al]

It occurs to me that you can make a decent enough list, but if your audience isn't educated enough on Japan/lucha/etc., take it out of the criteria from the beginning. State outright that it's "Best of WWE: 1985-present" or something to that effect.