80s to 90s

[ohtani's jacket]

Which workers, managers, commentators, etc. do you guys think survived the switch from the 80s to the 90s?

 

Who were most notably left behind?

[Loss]

When speaking about wrestlers in the U.S., I say these things looking at 1994-1995, because the first part of the decade was really just 80s holdover otherwise.

 

MANAGERS

Paul Heyman adapted very well, obviously. Jim Cornette and Bobby Heenan struggled to stay relevant as wrestling started to change.

 

ANNOUNCERS

Bob Caudle fell by the wayside, while Tony Schiavone became even more prominent. Jesse Ventura probably would have been even better in the 90s than he was in the 80s once the changes of the mid-90s started happening. I guess Jim Ross is a good answer here, because he did adapt to what the WWF wanted, but in the process lost a lot.

 

WRESTLERS

Yoshiaki Yatsu was left behind, but it's hard to say how much of that was injuries, and I don't think it was the style changes that shut him out as much as it was a fall from grace he was having anyway. Ric Flair remained relevant through the 90s, but I feel like Hulk Hogan did a much better job of adapting to a changing wrestling environment when he had no choice but to turn heel. I guess more of a change had to happen for him than for Flair in order to stay important. Bob Backlund is a weird case, but even though he was old, I think he could have been hugely effective as a foil to Austin, playing the role of the corporate champ in '98. Jerry Lawler did a great job of morphing into more of a cartoon character to ensure that he still had a job when the territory system started to fall apart. Stan Hansen adapted brilliantly to the youth movement going on around him at the time. Steve Williams did too, but I don't know if that was him hitting his peak or just making changes. The changes in wrestling really left Bret and Owen in the dust, albeit at later parts of the decade, and for reasons having nothing to do with Montreal or Owen's harness. The Undertaker took what was a very silly gimmick and has kept it going through lots of changes in the wrestlers around him. Sting's reinvention was long overdue, but I think if the topic was 90s to 00s, he'd be the worst, because the Crow thing is pretty outdated.

[Indikator]

It's often hard to distinguish between wrestlers who were burnt out from WWF schedules and guys who really tried to deliver. Bob Orton Jr. is a weird case as his IWCCW match is really fun but I didn't like his NWA stint when I first watched it almost a decade ago. Maybe that would change with another viewing. To me Orton is better the smaller the promotion gets.

 

Jim Duggan was probably left behind, although you wonder what was left in his tank once he signed with WWF.

 

MX & RR Express did not really transition that well.

 

The Fantastics and the Can Am Express were wise to go to AJPW. Rogers in ECW was almost irritating although well intentioned.

 

Guys like Rocco Rock and Scott Hall are probably my picks for best transition.

[Kronos]

What about the Freebirds? I know Gordy did some decent stuff in japan and was in SMW, IIRC. But did they really survive far into the 90's as a team? I am thinking that Hayes became Doc Hendrix or something, which was actually all about a guy being stuck in the 80's. . .

 

The other night, I was watching RAW 2.24.97 (the ECW ep). I just don't think that those guys would have made it on that show. I know we had some comedy hick characters (Godwinns), but it seems unlikely that a group of cool rednecks would have been welcomed in the Attitude era.

[Loss]

The Freebirds didn't make it into the 90s, but I don't think it was because of changes in the business. They just had other stuff going on, or in Hayes' case, got really old really young. In 1992, when he was in the Jimmy Valiant role in WCW, he was only 33, as crazy as it sounds.

[goodhelmet]

I agree... the Birds were already toast by the end of the 80s. after watching tons of footage, you could look at Hayes from 1980-86 and say... that is one bad mother. By 1989, you looked at him and he was goofy as fuck. It didn't help that he had goofy ass Jimmy Garvin right next to him.

[Kronos]

but it seems unlikely that a group of cool rednecks would have been welcomed in the Attitude era.

I just realized what I said there. Anyone want to call me out on that crazy comment? Can I get a Hell Yeah?

[Childs]

American tag team wrestling, in general, didn't make a strong transition from '80s to '90s. Early '90s WCW still featured good tag stuff, but by the middle of the decade, the import of the belts had diminished in both major feds and the top teams had all faded. Japan was a whole different story, of course.

[shoe]

I thought Terry Funk made a nice transition from the 80's to the 90's. He found a niche that suited him well.

[ohtani's jacket]

Japan

 

Jumbo is an obvious choice, since the early 90s was the peak of his reputation in Japan as a worker and star. Not sure how much longer he could've continued as a top worker, but he clearly adapted from the late 80s onwards.

 

Hansen adapted well, but some credit has to go to the improvement in the younger AJPW guys as workers.

 

Tenryu did a pretty great job of managing his bookings in the 90s. Perhaps the most successful freelancer in the history of Japanese pro-wrestling? Regardless of what you think of him as a worker, he pretty much delivered in a big match setting.

 

Hase did a good job switching to a heavier weight class, which is different from an 80s worker peaking in the 90s.

 

Choshu booked himself well, I guess.

 

Maeda was still a draw throughout most of the 90s, but his knees were gone by the end of 1990. Fujiwara was always an awesome worker, so I guess Takada takes the crown for becoming a major star in the mid-90s.

 

Gran Hamada is a bit like Fujiwara in that he was always a talented worker, but I guess he deserves credit for keeping up with a style he more or less pushed through.

 

Bull Nakano deserves some credit for adapting to AJW's circumstances after '88-89 and creating a new character. Devil Masami became a great working vet, without having to be the top star of her own promotion.

 

On the negative side, Fujinami really struggled in the 90s and Choshu's Army, though they were old, couldn't remain relevant. I thought Chigusa Nagayo and Lioness Asuka struggled upon their return, though they had drawing clout. Jaguar was OK, but not truly great.

[Tim Evans]

Mexico:

 

You can add Blue Panther, Negro Casas and Pirata Morgan to the list. Especially Negro who I think got better in the 90's. Granted I haven't seen a lot of his 80's stuff. Same thing goes with Santo. How is his 80's wrestling compared to the great stuff he did in AAA and CMLL in the 90's?

 

As for guys that didn't adapt so well, Perro Sr. should top the list.

[Stuttsy]

I think Rick Rude did pretty well.

[Loss]

Did he really change though?

 

He was pretty much the same guy in the 80s he was in the 90s, just higher on the card.

[Marty]

If we're going by Loss' definition of 94/95 or so being the actual start of the 90s...

 

- The Road Warriors fall into the non-survivors category. When they came back to WCW in 1996 and to the WWF afterwards, their act was passe and their abilities deteriorated. They tried to re-model themselves slightly in 1998 to no avail.

 

- Vader falls into the non-survivors category as well, although he was marred by bad booking in both companies moreso than anything else.

 

- On the flip side, if Brian Pillman was around much, much longer than he had been and hadn't been in the car wreck, he would've been a star heading into the new millennium. The Loose Cannon act completely revamped his act, gave him a lot of attention in early 96, was perfect for ECW, and would've been perfect for the Attitude Era of the WWF. Heck, since Austin was on his way to leading the company into that era, no doubt Pillman would've had some main event time in there. This is a lot of "if, if, if" for sure, but Pillman without question was someone who transitioned himself very well with the changing of the times.

 

- Because I agree that things changed around 94/95, I disagree that Rude falls into the survivors category that much (since his push was before the beginning of transition), although I don't know if I'd call him a non-survivor. He was pretty much a non-factor when he became a non-wrestler and a mouthpiece. His time in ECW isn't exactly remembered by most people, D-Generation X didn't exactly miss a beat when he left for WCW, and I don't remember too much during his WCW time. He was just kinda there.

[ohtani's jacket]

Mexico:

 

You can add Blue Panther, Negro Casas and Pirata Morgan to the list. Especially Negro who I think got better in the 90's. Granted I haven't seen a lot of his 80's stuff. Same thing goes with Santo. How is his 80's wrestling compared to the great stuff he did in AAA and CMLL in the 90's?

 

As for guys that didn't adapt so well, Perro Sr. should top the list.

Mexico is a bit iffy since we don't have much TV.

 

On the surface, guys like Satanico, MS-1, Lizmark, Los Brazos, Villanos all made the transition, with guys like Santo, Casas, El Dandy, Blue Panther, Atlantis, Pirata Morgan all peaking in the early 90s.

 

Yet a lot of these guys didn't survive UWA folding or AAA taking over CMLL in popularity.

 

Based on my limited knowledge, I assume the Toreo draws suffered the most, particularly Canek and Perro Sr. Fishman didn't seem to adapt well as a worker, but that might be self-inflicted. Emilio Charles, Jr. dropped off quickly in the 90s.

 

Can't say too much about Herodes or Sangre Chicana since the 80s footage is so limited.

 

Rayo seemed to do pretty well for himself in the 90s. Not sure about Cien Caras.

 

I guess Mil Máscaras made money, which is what it's all about.

[Guest Hack]

Did he really change though?

 

He was pretty much the same guy in the 80s he was in the 90s, just higher on the card.

Does transition really necessitate change though? Shouldn't he get credit for making a character that could easily make the transition between the two time periods? Given, the argument could be made that he was simply too lazy to re-package his character but I think the fact that the character made it was good in itself.

[Loss]

I understood the point of this thread to be people who were stars in the 80s and made changes that kept them going into the 90s. Creating a character that is timeless is a different topic, I think.

[tomk]

Jesse Ventura probably would have been even better in the 90s than he was in the 80s once the changes of the mid-90s started happening.

Huh? Why do you think he would have been better?

 

I can't see that happening at all.

 

I disagree that Rude falls into the survivors category that much (since his push was before the beginning of transition), although I don't know if I'd call him a non-survivor. He was pretty much a non-factor when he became a non-wrestler and a mouthpiece. His time in ECW isn't exactly remembered by most people, D-Generation X didn't exactly miss a beat when he left for WCW, and I don't remember too much during his WCW time. He was just kinda there.

A guy who is incapable of wrestling and yet you have all three companies in the same year competing to use him in a pushed role isn't just a survivor. He's a guy who understands the biz. and a guy who the biz felt could play a pushed role in that era.

 

- On the flip side, if Brian Pillman was around much, much longer than he had been and hadn't been in the car wreck, he would've been a star heading into the new millennium. The Loose Cannon act completely revamped his act, gave him a lot of attention in early 96, was perfect for ECW, and would've been perfect for the Attitude Era of the WWF. Heck, since Austin was on his way to leading the company into that era, no doubt Pillman would've had some main event time in there. This is a lot of "if, if, if" for sure, but Pillman without question was someone who transitioned himself very well with the changing of the times.

If Pillman hadn't had the carcrash would he have ever developed the loose cannon act? The Loose Cannon act was an act based on character of being an out of control drug addict. Predicting what would happen if "out of control drug addict" was able to survive a bit longer is silly.

[Loss]

Jesse Ventura probably would have been even better in the 90s than he was in the 80s once the changes of the mid-90s started happening.

Huh? Why do you think he would have been better?

 

I can't see that happening at all.

Ventura's cool heel act from the announce booth would have gotten more over in the 90s than it did the 80s. He's a guy that would get up mid-PPV and do poses for the live audience to play to "Jesse! Jesse!" chants.

 

Heels doing tongue-in-cheek stuff to get people to like them is pretty 90s.

[Guest Iron Chad]

If Pillman hadn't had the carcrash would he have ever developed the loose cannon act? The Loose Cannon act was an act based on character of being an out of control drug addict. Predicting what would happen if "out of control drug addict" was able to survive a bit longer is silly.

That's a good question, but I recall Pillman developing the Loose Cannon gimmick before the car crash, he "quit"/quit WCW and crashed a couple of Nitros before the crash and made at least his first ECW appearance before the crash. I'm pretty sure he was referring to himself as the "loose cannon" and "renegade horseman" at this time a few weeks before the crash on his 900 line.

 

I think the "Loose Cannon" gimmick was coming crash or no, but your point about Pillman being an out of control drug addict and predicting whether they would live longer or not being silly is well taken. Pillman would've been on the drugs crash or no, it's probably just a question of how much and what drugs when you factor in the Humvee accident.

[tomk]

Ventura's cool heel act from the announce booth would have gotten more over in the 90s than it did the 80s. He's a guy that would get up mid-PPV and do poses for the live audience to play to "Jesse! Jesse!" chants.

 

Heels doing tongue-in-cheek stuff to get people to like them is pretty 90s.

Were the announcers the only cool characters in the WWF in the 80s?

 

The WWF isn't Hustle but under Vince it has always presented wrestling somewhat ironically.

80's wrestlers played it straight while the announcers Ventura, Heenan, Okerlund, and Mcmahon himself were always in on the joke with a wink and a nudge.

The attitude era flipped that and you had the wrestlers all in on the joke while the announcers played it straight.

 

I think self aware ironic cool tongue n cheek commentary on ironic cool tongue in cheek performers would actually come off as corny.

 

Mystery Science Theatre watching an episode of the Family Guy would be a show that the fans of neither would like.

[jdw]

I really don't get what the "switch" from 1989 to 1990 is all about. Is there anything different in those years?

 

Or is it some later point.

 

Loss pointed out Bret and Owen at some point as falling off. I'm not picking on him, here... and to a degree I get his final point. But Bret was a tag wrestler in the 80s. In the 90s, he actually was a credible World Champ and who had some moments of drawing in the main events in stretches. He was pretty relevant in the WWF right up to Montreal - his heel turn, run to the title, and final run with the belt were all pretty damn solid. Did he not adapt in WCW? By the time he got there, it was a zoo and pretty much everyone who had Eric's ear and some bits of power weren't going to do anything to help Bret at the expense of their own spots. So it's really hard to say "didn't adapt" from 12/97 to Goldberg's boot to the head. It was a shithole.

 

Considering it was a shithole, he didn't do too bad. I'm recalling a title turn around with Luger that *at the time* was suprisingly okay given Luger was really a mess then. Then having to live through Russo's desire to relive Montreal over-and-over.

 

I tend to think Owen adapted. He never was going to be a top star in the WWF given Vince and the WWF. Maybe with different people running the company, Owen could have been Rey before Rey way back in the late 80s. But it wasn't going to happen. Instead, he was going to be a role player. The company didn't want him to be as flashy as he'd been in the 80s. He adapted to those two things, played the role the company wanted, and worked how they wanted, and was pretty solid though not spectacular.

 

He didn't adapt as a *great* "speaker" or "actor"... but he actually was pretty okay, and at times pretty good. He wasn't Stone Cold, or Rock, or Hogan, or Flair (if you're a Late 90s Flair fan). But he wasn't terrible. There were times where he was really strong, like Survivors 94 and other points in his feud with Bret.

 

Of course all that stuff is later in the 90s.

 

So...

 

I don't get the point of what's being looked at.

 

Yatsu was a good second banana in the mid-80s. But the late 80s, he was a fat, not terribly interested second banana who know he wasn't going above that level. Same shit in the 90s. There was nothing to adapt to - time already passed him by back in 1987 when Tenryu moved over opposite Jumbo.

 

Fujinami... I tend to agree. But he also never was quite the same after the injury. He never had Choshu's charisma or fire, which let Riki get by all the way to 1997 opposite the rise of the Three Musketeers. One can toss it off as Choshu booking himself, but it's pretty obtuse is missing that Riki booked himself to put other people over in the end. One of the first people he put over was the returning Fujinami, which led to Fujinami getting the match with Flair at the Dome. It's more than Riki having the pencil - his charisma and fire was just enough to get by in the big matches, while Fujinami just didn't have "it".

 

Jumbo of course adapted, obviously to the role of older top vet opposite The Kids. He was as good at is as anyone.

 

Hansen adapted greatly. He did benefit from having younger, talented kids opposite him. But he picked up things to add to his game, picked up the pacing of his matches, and helped elevate the style. He was pretty fantastic through the end of 1993, with a few flashes after that. I think "age" more than "adapting" got him after that. I think if Hansen and the Babas were a little bit more on top of it, they would have seen the decline and come up with a style for Stan around 1994 and explained it in the press:

 

Stan doesn't have the stamina of the Kids, so long 20-35 minute match empty his tank. Knowing this, Stan presses the action right from the start, throwing the bombs, and looks to take his opponent out before endurance is a factor. Book him into 10-15 minute matches with the top guys rather than the long ones.

 

By bombs, I don't mean opening with a power bomb. Just chop off the time killing, go straight to the work to the finish, and give the fans a short, exiting match.

 

If they hadn't come up with it by 1994, they should have introduced it with his title win over Kawada - a short, violent, intense match with the two kicking the shit out of each other until Stan wins in 12 minutes.

 

It would have opened the door not just for Stan to work that type of match, but others.

 

Taue: "I don't have the stamina of Kobashi, so I've got to rock him early and work to finish him off before I tire."

 

Kawada: "Nothing else works against Misawa, so let me try this..."

 

Etc.

 

I'm rambling, of course.

 

Anyway... topic needs some definition.

 

 

John

[ohtani's jacket]

Well, I don't see the early 90s as a holdover from the 80s.

 

I think it was a key transitional period & I'd argue that the wrestling landscape was changing even in 1990.

 

Loss' idea that the 90s didn't start until '94-95 didn't even occur to me. I'd argue that the 90s started "earlier" than that.

[Indikator]

It's rather often the case that a certain event triggers the beginning of a new style and that yearnumbers are not that imortant

 

You could argue that the Choshu style triggered the "real" 80s style in NJPW after his turn on Fujinami and in AJPW when he debuted. Or does anybody not think that Harley Race was pretty much done when the JWP guys arrived in AJPW?

[jdw]

Well, I don't see the early 90s as a holdover from the 80s.

 

I think it was a key transitional period & I'd argue that the wrestling landscape was changing even in 1990.

 

Loss' idea that the 90s didn't start until '94-95 didn't even occur to me. I'd argue that the 90s started "earlier" than that.

WWF Champs

04/01/1990 Ultimate Warrior

 

80's star. Peaked the moment he got the belt.

 

01/19/1991 Sgt. Slaughter

 

80's star

 

03/24/1991 Hulk Hogan (3)

 

80's star

 

11/27/1991 Undertaker

 

90s star, but a pure blip on the radar here. He also was the last "great" 80s style cartoon character than Vince created.

 

12/03/1991 Hulk Hogan (4)

 

That guy again.

 

01/19/1992 Ric Flair

04/05/1992 Randy Savage (2)

09/01/1992 Ric Flair (2)

 

80s stars

 

10/12/1992 Bret Hart

 

90s star

 

04/04/1993 Yokozuna

 

Saying he's a 90s star would miss the point - he was a pure 80s style cartoon character.

 

04/04/1993 Hulk Hogan (5)

 

That guy again.

 

06/13/1993 Yokozuna (2)

 

See above.

 

03/20/1994 Bret Hart (2)

 

See above.

 

11/23/1994 Bob Backlund (4)

 

Can you get anymore 70s and 80s?

 

11/26/1994 Diesel

 

A "star" in the 90s, but the "Diesel" character was pure 80s style WWF. Cartoon character that Vince turned face when he got popular.

 

After that you get the periods of Bret and Shawn leading into Stone Cold. It's worth noting the Sid got two runs with the belt, and he was more 80s than anyone. Taker got another one transitioning the belt from Sid to Bret, and Taker was still in pure 80s cartoon mode at this point.

 

So in the WWF, up through the dawn of the Attitude Era, 80s Wrestling initially dominated, and then kept poking its head up through the entire "Bret & Shawn" era.

 

That's what Loss is talking about.

 

WCW is worse. With the exception of Vader, who largely was a "We don't have anyone else" guy at the top, the company was utterly dominated at the top by 80s wrestlers or 80s style wrestlers. One might try to say Goldberg was 90s, but really it was the old Nikita Koloff type of push, along with others. "Nash", as opposed to "Diesel", was more of a 90s style character, but he also had barely a cup of coffee with the belt until after Hogan's run was done.

 

I think Loss *underestimates* when then transition was. It actually would be easier to point to as 1998: Stone Cold, Rock, Foley who made WCW passe which eventually killed off the Hogan domination.

 

Japan is a different beast, and really can't be linked to the US.

 

 

John