"Macho Madness: The Randy Savage Ultimate Collection"

[jdw]

I still believe that Vince's unwillingness to work with Savage has to do with what was in Bret Hart's book... Savage left the WWF in the dead of the night for WCW, ala Luger. It's thus consistent with the reason Vince wants nothing to do with Luger.

Being crippled and killing Liz might've played a part too.

 

I assume that's aimed at Lex. And it's possible that Vince believes that. Of course Liz died in 2003, which was well after the point where Vince decided not to use Lex.

 

I tend to think that Vince could have "saved" Liz if he really gave a shit. She was working the front desk of the freaking Gym. It's not terribly hard to given her an office and appearances job in the WWE with going through rehab and staying clean as a condition. Hell, the warning signs were there 12-14 days before her death. He could have flown down there, or had someone in the family fly down there, and get her on the next plane to Stamford.

 

So Vince's pain over Liz's death doesn't hold a lot of water.

 

 

JDW: I hear alot of wrestlers are pedophiles, Hogan has a lot of wrestling friends, so I see no reason she would be lying about Savage hitting on her while she was underage. She said it creeped her out, because Savage use to babysit her.

I see plenty of reasons. Savage is on the "enemies list" of her old man. She also is a worker. The time frame also puts it back to when she was 12 and under, and "hit on" isn't exactly something that a pedo does. Give all the shit that Hogan and Savage tossed at each other back and forth, you don't think it wouldn't have come out back in 2002-2003 when the heat was the highest?

 

 

John

[tomk]

When has Vince ever cared about looking like a horrible person?

It's been repeatedly stated that Vince himself definitely has some kind of staunch anti-Macho bias, that story's been reported several times by Meltzer et al. I just can't buy the "Vince won't bring Savage in because of a rumor which Vince knows isn't true" idea. So what if other people believe it? When the hell has Vincent Kennedy McMahon ever cared about that? This is a dude who publicly called out Congrees, for god's sake. If he wanted to bring Savage back, he certainly wouldn't let some rumor stop him, especially one he knows to be untrue. "Hey everyone, gather round. Stephanie: did Randy fuck you?" "No." "Okay, SlimJims for everyone!"

 

There is a big difference between allowing oneself to look like a “horrible person” and allowing oneself to look like a “bitch.”

 

“Horrible people” people who act like they don’t care what anyone thinks about their action, who call out the government with contempt inspire a level of fear and respect.

 

If one of your employees fucks your underage daughter behind your back, you’ve been made a bitch. You're a weakened authority figure.

If your employees think that your underage daughter has been fucked behind your back you’ve been made a bitch. You're a weakened authority figure

If your employees think your underage daughter was fucked by a former employee behind your back and you rehire him, you’ve been made a bitch. You're a weakened authority figure.

 

Vince is totally willing to look like a horrible person. He’s not willing to look like a bitch.

 

If you think that stopping the spread of an untrue rumor is as simple as asking all the participants in the story to admit that it’s a lie and then sharing slim jims…you’ve never dealt with a false rumor.

 

It's hard to kill a false rumor. Continuing to not work with Savage makes the rumor grow stronger. Working with won't kill it.

 

It is hard to kill a generally shared belief.

 

If OJ hadn’t killed his wife and her boyfriend, would he have behaved any different post trial? Once he was understood to be guilty it wouldn’t matter if a drug dealer showed up tomorrow and admitted guilt, even if there were DNA evidence linking that drug dealer, Oj would still be perceived to be guilty.

[tomk]

JDW: I hear alot of wrestlers are pedophiles, Hogan has a lot of wrestling friends, so I see no reason she would be lying about Savage hitting on her while she was underage. She said it creeped her out, because Savage use to babysit her.

Yes wrestling is filled with pedophiles. During the RF scandal there was a letter published on the WON site from someone supposedly in the WWF defending RF.

 

Still every girl raised by a family that pushes them into beauty pageants will tell you “All my dads friends wanted to fuck me”.

“My parents tell me I’m so special” becomes “everyone thinks I’m so special”

“My parents tell me I’m so beautiful”---“Everyone thinks I’m beautifull”

“My parents tell me I’m going to be a lil hottie”—“everyone wants to fuck me”.

 

There is a huge difference between “everyone was always flirting with me” and “Mr Poffo showed me his dick and wetted my 'no-no' place with his mouth”.

 

“All these adults were always hitting on me, it was creepy” is self aggrandizing and meaningless.

[jdw]

Here's one recap of the Stern show:

 

Howard told her that he thinks her uncle Bubba was really into her. Brooke said that Bubba is the only friend of her father’s who hasn’t made a pass at her. She said that a lot of them have kind of made passes at her. She said that Macho Man Savage told her that he used to baby sit her and it came out kind of strange when he said it.

Perhaps someone can get direct quotes. But it doesn't at all sound like Savage told her back when she was 11-12 that "he used to babysit her" and it was creppy. It sounds much more like *current/recent* Savage told her that, and that it was creepy.

 

She's not at all implying that Savage made a pass at her back when she was a kid.

 

As far as Brooke's truthfulness:

 

http://community.livejournal.com/ohnotheydidnt/26070314.html

 

She's a worker. Come on folks... didn't anyone watch that goofy show? All four of them were fucked in the head. The little dog that shit all over Hogan's gym might have been the sanest of the bunch.

 

 

John

[Guest The 3H's]

Savage is a worker too, still really doesn't prove he isn't a pedophile.

 

I satnd corrected on the Brook thing though.

[Guest The 3H's]

I tend to think that Vince could have "saved" Liz if he really gave a shit. She was working the front desk of the freaking Gym. It's not terribly hard to given her an office and appearances job in the WWE with going through rehab and staying clean as a condition. Hell, the warning signs were there 12-14 days before her death. He could have flown down there, or had someone in the family fly down there, and get her on the next plane to Stamford.

 

So Vince's pain over Liz's death doesn't hold a lot of water.

Just because he didn't "save her" doesn't mean he still didn't want to work with Lex for killing her.

[Marty]

I still believe that Vince's unwillingness to work with Savage has to do with what was in Bret Hart's book... Savage left the WWF in the dead of the night for WCW, ala Luger. It's thus consistent with the reason Vince wants nothing to do with Luger.

I posted earlier in the thread the Raw after Randy signed with WCW where Vince was putting him over strongly. Randy left in broad daylight. It was a time where Vince chose not to match WCW on big deals to Hogan and Randy, and probably some others that I'm forgetting. It wasn't until the Monday Night Era where Vince started to give a shit.

 

That's part of the problem with the Randy story - lots of "facts" that folks are tossing around don't add up with reality.

 

John

 

I also posted earlier about the WWE featuring Savage for one of their publications in 2003. I don't buy that they looked at him up until at least then the same way they've looked at Luger. All this has to do with recent events, or recent beliefs of past events.

[Jingus]

There is a big difference between allowing oneself to look like a “horrible person” and allowing oneself to look like a “bitch.”

Firstly, I think you're overstating the psychological overtones here. This isn't some group of Roman senators or Mafia family where personal image can get you killed. Secondly, why would Vince care? He's the boss. He's the biggest shareholder. Nobody can possibly challenge him within the company in any way. Whether this rumor is spread around or not, it doesn't alter his actual business dealings one tiny bit.

 

If you think that stopping the spread of an untrue rumor is as simple as asking all the participants in the story to admit that it’s a lie and then sharing slim jims…you’ve never dealt with a false rumor.

Of course I have, everyone has. But okay, let's assume that Vince does indeed have some kind of massive mental investment in not looking like a bitch in this particular situation. Once again: Vince is in total control. He's a micromanager with an much-storied God complex who insists on personally making every little decision in his company, including intruding on the lives of his employees whom he demands absolute loyalty from. He's also known as being incredibly insistent on rewriting history in the way which shows him in the best light. Vince isn't ever a guy to just sit there and swallow something he doesn't like, he always fires back aggressively. I just don't buy him knowing that this rumor exists among his underlings and not angrily deciding to squash it.

 

The most plausible explanation seems to be that nobody in the company has ever dared ask him about it, so either he doesn't know about it or just thinks it's yet another dumb rumor that nerds giggle about on the internet. It wouldn't be the first time that the employees have quietly kept certain things away from him.

[Boondocks Kernoodle]

Who knows what kind of personal dealings Vince and Savage have had over the years? Vince never forgave Ole Anderson for saying "Fuck you and your wife" to him back in '85 or whenever. Maybe Randy said something really mean to Vince and he took it personally. We don't know.

[jdw]

Savage is a worker too, still really doesn't prove he isn't a pedophile.

We're at the point where one has to prove that Savage *didn't* bang a 17 year old Steph, or "isn't" a pedo? Odd. I always thought it was the other way around.

 

Savage banging a 17 year old Steph wouldn't fall under the definition of "pedophile". It wouldn't even make him an hebaphile. It's a ephebophile, which becomes an age of consent issue. Look up the words if you don't know what they mean.

 

The age of consent in Connecticut is 16.

 

We've now got speculation starting (people reading something into Dave's comments) that this may have happened in Germany. Age of consent in Germany is no later than 16, and can be as early as 14. Yeah... those evil, liberal, socialist Euros.

 

If we buy the story that Savage wanted to bang Major Guns and here 17 year old daughter in a threesome, it's more of the same. Georgia is 16 for age of consent. Of course that could have been an offer made in some other state.

 

So if we buy all this stuff, Savage is a dirty old ephebophile who likes to consensual bang late adolescents / late teen women. In some states, he'd get slapped with a statutory rape/sex offender charge. In others, it would be creepy but legal.

 

Lawler, from his track record of legal issues and all the stories that swirl around him, is either a hebaphile or a ephebophile or both. I don't think I've ever heard stories of Jerry chasing pre-pubescent kids, so calling him a pedo wouldn't be accurate. I'm guilty of calling him one over the years, at least until Iron Chad corrected me several years back. Age of consent in TN is 18, though that law may have been pushed up to 18 from a lower age during the course of Lawler's career. It's 16 in Kentucky, another part of the territory. If I recall correctly, the girl was 15 when it "allegedly" happened. Creepier, dirtier old man breaking the law... "allegedly".

 

 

John

[tomk]

Yeah what jdw said.

 

There is no evidence that Savage is a pedophile and also no evidence that Vince wouldn't hire a pedophile.

 

The idea that Vince won't deal with Savage cause Savage diddled his young daughter isn't "Vince is a guy who thinks pedophilia is beyond the pale and won't deal with pedophiles". If none of them had been publicly outed and Vince thought a tag team of Art Barr and Tower of Doom managed by Mel Phillips with Gary Glitter entrance music could draw money he would do it.

 

The story that Vince won't deal with Savage is because employee diddled young daughter of boss behind boss's back.

 

QUOTE(tomk @ Mar 24 2009, 01:13 PM)

There is a big difference between allowing oneself to look like a “horrible person” and allowing oneself to look like a “bitch.”

 

Firstly, I think you're overstating the psychological overtones here. This isn't some group of Roman senators or Mafia family where personal image can get you killed. Secondly, why would Vince care? He's the boss. He's the biggest shareholder. Nobody can possibly challenge him within the company in any way. Whether this rumor is spread around or not, it doesn't alter his actual business dealings one tiny bit.

If you don't think Vince is crazy insecure motherfucka who needs to be constantly validated you haven't been paying attention.

 

I just don't buy him knowing that this rumor exists among his underlings and not angrily deciding to squash it.

How do you go about doing that?

IF DNA linked John Mark Karr to the death of Jon Benet Ramsey would people stop thinking that her parents were involved?

Ingmar A. Guandique killed Chandra Levy. Gary Conditt is completely inocent. But Conditt is still persona non grata. Once public perception of a truth, you can't just "squash" it. Wrestling is a world of liars, lies and storiesstorytellers where Bs becomes accepted history overnight. It's alot easier to start a new myth than kill an old one.

[Guest The 3H's]

Oh, I agree JDW; I shouldn't have called him a pedophile, because I think the sex, if it happened, was consensual. Either way, I can see Vince not wanting to do business with a guy who fucked his daughter while she was 14 [Which is the age I always heard]- I can also seeing him ignoring it and still doing business with the guy, which is what it looks like he is doing with the DVD. However Savage might didn't do it, and who's to say Vince hasn't fucked an underage girl or 2? I could believe that also.

 

I guess , I just buy in to the Kat Williams mind set on things like this, "Nobody is saying you're a crack head for 20 years if you never smoked some crack".

[Ronnie]

Oh, I agree JDW; I shouldn't have called him a pedophile, because I think the sex, if it happened, was consensual.

That wasn't the point. It's not an issue of consent, but of whether the other person is pre-pubescent. Steph wouldn't have been pre-pubescent at the alleged time, hence there are no grounds for labelling him as someone who is attracted to children, rather than adolescents.

 

Either way, I can see Vince not wanting to do business with a guy who fucked his daughter while she was 14 [Which is the age I always heard]-

The rumour was that he had sex with Steph in 1994 when she was "14/15". That's obviously hurt by the fact that Steph was 17/18 in 1994.

[sek69]

 

 

"Hey there Steph, you wanna snap into my Slim Jim tonight?"

[Guest Kenta Batista]

Good DVD. Good choices for matches. Savage in Japan should have been shown. Also, Maria REALLY brought down the DVD for me, its a great product but I know she knows NOTHING about Savage and its so obvious he knowledge goes as far as whatever the teleprompter says

[sek69]

In a weird way, it's probably better that it was Maria on the DVD and not some front office WWE guy slagging him the whole time.

[Guest Kenta Batista]

I would have preferred Striker/Matthews/Grisham handling duties. Maria just KILLS the dvd for me and its sad.

[Guest Hail Sabin]

Amongest the other WWE DVDs based on other wrestlers where would you rank this set?

Also how many times does Maria appear on the DVD?

[Guest MarkGotch]

I think the footage it contains is pretty good. A lot of good matches and a collection of straight up promos on the last disc. Maria really really diminished my enjoyment of this DVD. Unlike other DVDs where there is a shoot documentary followed by matches, it follows the same format as the HHH or Rock DVDs. Each chapter starts with Matt Stryker and Maria giving you a crappy run down of what took place before the match with quick snipits of footage. I would much rather have the actual promos/angle and then the match. If you use torrents and stuff you likely have or can get most of the matches on here. I just cant put into words how much worse Maria made this DVD.

[Johnny Sorrow]

Ummm, Maria did nothing to make this DVD not great for fuck's sake..

 

Holy shit. Three discs and she has about, what, 5-9 minutes total screen time? And this "ruined" it?

 

Christ.

[Marty]

Yeah, I don't get the hate for Maria being on the Macho disc. Not the most ideal host perhaps, but because of the screen time she was on for, it was far from ruined.

 

They also weren't going to do a "shoot" (ha!) documentary for it. Whole plan was to celebrate Macho's career, not put the set in a position where he's buried. I also think on some level, Maria was used to try to increase sales. A lot of the "historical" DVDs recently sold haven't been selling that great (SNME and Starrcade come to mind) and while I'm certain they figured a Savage set would sell well (which it apparently has) they also wanted to throw a Diva in there for sales purposes. I'm not sure if this speaks for a lot of the fanbase, but I do know a BIG Maria fan who said that something like a Savage set is something he wouldn't have thought of buying (not a big fan) but now it's something he considers.

 

Anyways, I enjoyed the set. Seen a lot of the matches before, but still enjoyed them. Think I enjoyed the promos even more.

[Guest Hail Sabin]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts I will probably get the set at some point this year.

Does Wrestlemania 8 incude the pre match and post match promos?

[Marty]

If memory serves, just the match.

 

Too bad, I guess. I know it's a Savage set we're talking about, but the Flair/Hennig/Heenan promo is one of my favourite Flair WWF promos. Both Hennig and Heenan are ranting and raving about Savage cheating, and Flair follows up by calmly cutting a promo of what he'll do eventually.

[Guest Hail Sabin]

The pre match and post match promos along with the match itself is awesome and in my top 5 favorite segments in wrestling history. The pre match promos set the stage then the match takes it to another level and all four men bring the goods in the post match promos.

[Guest MarkGotch]

5-9 minutes total? We're subjected to her for at least several minutes between each match. And IMO she did make the DVD "not great"... several times while watching this DVD I was tempted to drive to wherever that makeup encrusted waste of space is from and strangle her entire family, but to each his own I guess.

 

About the WM8 match, I love that match also, but I've always wondered why it had such a sudden end to it.