Wrestling Myth Busters

[JHawk]

Myth: Gordon Solie was the best old-school commentator from Back In The Day and was universally respected by his peers as the Dean of Wrestling. (For those with experience, don't just say "Lance Russell was better", expound a bit.)

Nobody's going to try to bust this one?

 

I know I won't (I love me some Gordon Solie commentary) but I expected some opposition to it.

[tomk]

Thesz gimmick was "I am legitimate" with secondary part being "my legitimacy transfers to the rest of your product".

 

It's a good gimmick that he was able to work and maintain for his entire career. Into his old age he could command a price to show up to ref a match or just present a belt.

 

Part of working the gimmick of “I represent the lineage of the real in a world of fakery” involves doing curmudgeony interviews where you talk shit about the goofiness and fakery out there.

 

No different than Shane Douglas ding mic work about his personal disgust with Papa Shango and Doink.

 

The “I am disgusted and want nothing to do with this BS” mic work is important part of the gimmick that Thesz worked. You need to do that mic work to get the gig reffing UWA lucha matches.

[Loss]

MYTH: Larry Zbyszko enjoys stalling.

 

I'm not debunking this. There is some truth in it. But it's way, way overblown. Just in late 1991-1992, Zbyszko takes part in plenty of well-paced matches with plenty of action.

[tomk]

I love me some Lance Russell. Both him and Solie relied on kind of dramatic understatement which made the action seem even more exciting.

 

But I've watched a ton of Russell recently and I think he was overreliant on the same exasperated spots. The same exasperated spots for a guy getting lynched as someone talking shit as someone getting tarred and feathered. Those spots work but its kind of a crutch. I'll take him over WCW/WWF Ross easily (over Midsouth Ross as well) and I haven't watched a ton of Solie recently.

[khawk20]

MYTH: Larry Zbyszko enjoys stalling.

 

I'm not debunking this. There is some truth in it. But it's way, way overblown. Just in late 1991-1992, Zbyszko takes part in plenty of well-paced matches with plenty of action.

The stall was alive and active during his entire AWA run, from 84 through 90. From my perspective, it isn't overblown at all.

[khawk20]

I expected some opposition to it.

"Well there's certainly no question about THAT". Way over-used, to the point of self-parody.

 

Never a big Solie fan. I didn't hate him, but I certainly never got the love for him, either. But I dorecognize that many people think he was the best ever and I have no problem with that. There isn't an announcer going that didn't have some sort of quirk that you either loved or hated.

 

I love the way Gene Okerlund called AWA matches, which he did do from ringside in Minneapolis and Winnipeg. Just him, bombastic but still willing to let the action speak for itself a lot of the time.

[sek69]

I was never a big fan of Solie, but I realize that by the time I started watching he was half in the bag most of the time.

[khawk20]

I was never a big fan of Solie, but I realize that by the time I started watching he was half in the bag most of the time.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that some of the places he worked used to have announcers on stand-by in case he got too drunk to go on.

[KrisZ]

MYTH: Larry Zbyszko enjoys stalling.

 

I'm not debunking this. There is some truth in it. But it's way, way overblown. Just in late 1991-1992, Zbyszko takes part in plenty of well-paced matches with plenty of action.

Well it helped that the guys were getting bonuses for working hard. Watch Zbyszko circa 1983-85 for his prime era of stalling.

[KrisZ]

Regarding Solie, his best years were in the 70's up until like 1981.

[jdw]

MYTH: Larry Zbyszko enjoys stalling.

 

I'm not debunking this. There is some truth in it. But it's way, way overblown. Just in late 1991-1992, Zbyszko takes part in plenty of well-paced matches with plenty of action.

The stall was alive and active during his entire AWA run, from 84 through 90. From my perspective, it isn't overblown at all.

 

I'm with KHawk on this. It became attached to Larry in his AWA years - that's where he made his bones among hardcore fans as stalling his ass off. So his WCW stuff was after it, and perhaps his attempt to shake it off.

 

He had plenty of stalling in his WWF Heel run as well. There were times when it worked, and times when it dragged. It wasn't uncommon in the WWF - lots of heels opened with heel stalling and bike work to "build the heat". Some of it was okay, some of it was good, and some of it was just shit.

 

Muraco when he wanted to would just stall away matches until it was time to lay around to kill off more of the matches. When he really didn't feel like doing anything, which was a lot for such a talented guy, his stalling was painful. In his better matches, it was pretty good stuff leading to some nice paybacks for the face.

 

Savage, in contrast, got to the point in his first heel run with the WWF where he had his opening bike routine down pretty pat and it usually worked pretty well.

 

With Larry, at his worst the Bike was pretty much the dominant aspect of his work. So "Zbyszkoing" became a pretty common term for hardcores to describe someone stalling.

 

 

John

[Jkeats]

Regarding Solie, his best years were in the 70's up until like 1981.

I agree...I would even go up to about the Piper turn in 82. After that, the product really dips in Georgia and he with it. I love listening to him on the late 70's-early 80's GCW stuff though. As for Russell, he's my favorite overall. I could listen to him read a recipe for making brownies.

[Indikator]

Who was actually the pioneer of stalling?

 

I read the autobiograhpy of Ludwig Von Krupp/Rene Lasartesse, who wrote a lot about this subject. He had an aristocrat'ish gimmick that he got in the mid-50s and stalled his way through main events for over 30 years. He said he got the gimmick once when he didn't pay attention to the wrestler parade that was common in Europe and the crowd booed him quite aloud when he didn't react when he was announced. He didn't do it on purpose, but knew that this could be his gimmick (he also bleached his hair, must have been a late 50's MSG influence where he worked). At some point that I can't pinpoint he included stalling in his act, I've read a couple of articles from the late 80s when people said that although Lasartesse is over 50 and stalls a lot, people always buy a ticket for the next show hoping that someone will then clean his clock. With daily wrestling shows in the same venue that is quite a feat, especially if he was able to headline for decades with this act.

 

Back to my original question, it's probably not Gorgeous George as he was a comedy worker who took ridiculous bumps. I think it might have been another aristocrat, but I've never seen a Leone/Carlton/Blears match with obvious stalling tactics. As it's a gimmick that is basically one big tease it might have also been a wrestler who people always wanted to see bleed, just like Bobby Heenan.

[KrisZ]

Yeah he still had some good stuff in 1982. I think once guys like Piper & Hayes left and Jim Barnett getting canned soured Solie.

[KrisZ]

Austin Idol the heel was another master of the stall.

[Guest Kenta Batista]

RE: Solie

 

 

Solie is a case where someone is being praised for being around during monumental things going down, rather then actual contributing to those moments. Solie JUST HAPPENED TO BE THE GUY CALLING LEGENDARY MATCHES. Let's put this in perspective: Would Mike Adamle be considered a 'legend' and be HOF bound had he called some of the biggest matches in the WWE since 2000?

 

Austin vs. Rock

Angle vs. Austin

Lesnar vs. Angle

HBK vs. Rick Flair

Rock vs. Hogan

Batista vs. Cena

Michaels vs. Hogan

HHH vs. Flair

Austin vs. Flair

 

Let's say Adamle called all those matches: Would he be held in high standing? The answer is no. Why? Because Adamle sucks and so does Solie (in different aspects of course). I understand who Solie influenced, but I remember watching a Flair cage match and Solie almost put me to sleep. The audio clips WWE played of Solie calling matches were laughable. No charisma, no enthusiasm,nothing! This not a case of "well it was the 70's" or any of that bullshit. Being boring is being boring. I would rate Mike Striker, Josh Matthews, and Todd Grisham over Solie. I would take any combination of those guys any day of the week and twice on Sundays. JR might have been inspired by Solie and became a legend in the commentator field, but he has surpassed the 'legend' of Gordon Solie by light years.

[Jkeats]

Let's say Adamle called all those matches: Would he be held in high standing? The answer is no. Why? Because Adamle sucks and so does Solie (in different aspects of course). I understand who Solie influenced, but I remember watching a Flair cage match and Solie almost put me to sleep. The audio clips WWE played of Solie calling matches were laughable. No charisma, no enthusiasm,nothing! This not a case of "well it was the 70's" or any of that bullshit. Being boring is being boring. I would rate Mike Striker, Josh Matthews, and Todd Grisham over Solie. I would take any combination of those guys any day of the week and twice on Sundays. JR might have been inspired by Solie and became a legend in the commentator field, but he has surpassed the 'legend' of Gordon Solie by light years.

If you're talking about the Starrcade Flair cage match then you're right. That's well after his peak as a good announcer.

 

For me, Solie's strength was in hosting the shows. That's where he shined. He was great at calling the studio matches and also giving an air of legitimacy to the craziness that was happening. I find his calls on stuff like the a Dibiase-Steve O face vs. face studio match a blast to listen to. I can understand why someone might not dig him though.

[Jingus]

I don't think it's fair to say "he was just boring, period, accept that fact" because a lot of people did indeed like that earlier style of commentary where the announcers tried to be relatively detached from the action. Lots of pre-80s announcers worked in that style. Lance Russell did sort of the same thing, not completely identical since he did show more sarcastic emotion, but it was in the same ballpark.

 

I actually talked about this with Scott Hudson one time, and he had an interesting take on Solie. He said that inside the biz, Solie was known for being much better at laying down commentary tracks over pretaped matches than he was at announcing live at ringside. Supposedly, he liked being able to see the whole thing ahead of time and know what points he wanted to make, and preferred not to work on the fly where he didn't know what was coming.

 

I would rate Mike Striker, Josh Matthews, and Todd Grisham over Solie.

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not go overboard here.

[khawk20]

If you're talking about the Starrcade Flair cage match then you're right. That's well after his peak as a good announcer.

Speaking of which....

 

MYTH: Race vs. Flair at the first Starrcade was a good match.

 

I personally have never gotten the love for this match, especially since it was ruined by the over-active "look at me!" antics of Gene Kiniski.

I have seen it getting deconstructed and exposed as not-so-good some over the years, and that may even be the majority opinion amongst fans "like us" now. How that ever got "Match of the Year" status anywhere is beyond me.

[Jkeats]

Speaking of which....

 

MYTH: Race vs. Flair at the first Starrcade was a good match.

 

I personally have never gotten the love for this match, especially since it was ruined by the over-active "look at me!" antics of Gene Kiniski.

I have seen it getting deconstructed and exposed as not-so-good some over the years, and that may even be the majority opinion amongst fans "like us" now. How that ever got "Match of the Year" status anywhere is beyond me.

Is there love for it? Yeah I'm with you...I don't like that match at all. Kiniski really kills the flow of it and I have a hard time watching it still. I think I've only ever really sat through it completely once.

[khawk20]

I guess part of my Race-Flair post is dedicated to finding out if the myth still persists.

[kjh]

IIRC, Scott Keith gave it ***** when he reviewed the first Flair DVD, so the myth still persists. But that's Scott Keith for you.

 

I actually like the match, though given the participants, the stage and the storyline it should have been a lot better than it was.

[Al]

Match of the Year from that era should be taken with a grain of salt. Remember they didn't have the internet, tape trading was extremely limited and there wasn't a huge level of national saturation. So most fans were aware of their local promotion and whatever was hyped in the Apter mags. Flair/Race was the biggest match on the biggest card of the year.

[tomk]

I don't get the Solie as boring guy who happened to be around to call memorable matches idea.

He wasn't a rah-rah hype announcer.

That he isn't Don West, Jim Ross or David Crockett is the point. He's not a carny hype man or a guy trying to kill time by telling entertaining jokes.

Normally guys who pimp Solie point to alot of his work calling meaningless undercard work, as he sells the idea that you're learning something valueable by watching it.

[KrisZ]

Another thing about Solie is that most people have only seen his Georgia work but he may have been even better in Florida especially when Dusty was on top.